Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[Rush17]

Nah. Jake is not as mature or intelligent as Bo, but he's a man child too.

Also, IMO, itheres no such thing as "rushing" a prospect unless you're a bottom feeder expecting the kid to be your saviour, or a contender that traded somebody away to slot the kid in the lineup. There is absolutely NO pressure on Jake Virtanen this year - if he can't produce, nobody's gonna want his head. The kid just needs to play like a man, hit everything in sight, play hard/smart, and show us his world-class shot on occasion... and voila, he's a Vancouver Canuck. Bo had far more pressure on him in that, before he emerged, we were scared that none of our current prospects would ever make the jump and become legitimate NHL players. Bo has set off a new movement in Vancouver, and was the perfect player to do so.

Very well said. Great insight on the end of your post. I think he really has helped the fan base and players by relieving that pressure.

Great post!

[Alflives]

I wouldn't mind Lucic, but I would be vary wary of the price it might cost. I'm happy we didn't trade for him this offseason. He's had an odd last two years and it is difficult to tell if it is just a minor slump or if he is actually declining. Seeing him with LA this year should help clarify his status.

Regarding Virtanen winning the Calder, I think that is rather far-fetched. I could be wrong about this but I don't think any forward in the CHL has ever went from a 1 PPG in his CHL +1 season to winning the NHL Calder trophy in his +2 season.

Not to mention the Calder has a documented non-west coast bias.

I agree with the East coast bias. Plus, there is a first time for everything. We must not forget that Jake was coming off series surgery, and never got into proper shape last season. I don't know if you saw him in the summer camp games, but he was a lot lighter, super fast, and playing an incredibly heavy game. I think that's the kind of game that will translate really well to the NHL.

[GMJB]

And also for all of you that are worried about Virtanen's offense Lucic Ladd and Byfuglien all similar offensive numbers to him in there draft years and seasons after all were power forward types who came out of the WHL being basically PPG players like Virtanen. I know Virtanen is not likely to become a star offensive first liner but he has a very good chance of becoming a 50-60 point power forward.

Edited August 24, 2015 by GMJB

[Alflives]

And also for all of you that are worried about Virtanen's offense Lucic Ladd and Byfuglien all similar offensive numbers to him in there draft years and seasons after all were power forward types who came out of the WHL being basically PPG players like Virtanen. I know Virtanen is not likely to become a star offensive first liner but he has a very good chance of becoming a 50-60 point power forward.

He's a bigger bodied player. These bigger guys often take a bit more time to get used to their size. When the do, they often surpass the little water bug type players, who put up big numbers in their late teens.

[TOMapleLaughs]

Jamie Benn just won the art ross.

[Alflives]

Jamie Benn just won the art ross.

Now there's the perfect example. You hit the nail on the head.

[sharbinder]

Jamie Benn just won the art ross.

I didn't know Dallas was along the west coast....

[baumerman77]

He's a bigger bodied player. These bigger guys often take a bit more time to get used to their size. When the do, they often surpass the little water bug type players, who put up big numbers in their late teens.

Do you have any evidence supporting that claim?

Edited August 24, 2015 by baumerman77

[elvis15]

And also for all of you that are worried about Virtanen's offense Lucic Ladd and Byfuglien all similar offensive numbers to him in there draft years and seasons after all were power forward types who came out of the WHL being basically PPG players like Virtanen. I know Virtanen is not likely to become a star offensive first liner but he has a very good chance of becoming a 50-60 point power forward.

Cool, so there were no other players with similar numbers to Virtanen in his junior years that didn't turn out to be Lucic, Ladd or Byfuglien. I can rest easy now knowing statistical probability is in our favour.

/sarcasm

But really, there's some concern there he won't have that top end that we'd expect out of our highest pick since the Sedins. He does have that safety net of likely being an NHL'er since he can still play with speed and strength, but people have every right to be worried if his offence will translate as even a top 6 player to the NHL.

No doom and gloom, sky is falling posts, just realistic assessments to what he may become in the NHL.

[Alflives]

Cool, so there were no other players with similar numbers to Virtanen in his junior years that didn't turn out to be Lucic, Ladd or Byfuglien. I can rest easy now knowing statistical probability is in our favour.

/sarcasm

But really, there's some concern there he won't have that top end that we'd expect out of our highest pick since the Sedins. He does have that safety net of likely being an NHL'er since he can still play with speed and strength, but people have every right to be worried if his offence will translate as even a top 6 player to the NHL.

No doom and gloom, sky is falling posts, just realistic assessments to what he may become in the NHL.

That type of criticism is true of all prospects. I do like your comment that, because of his size and talent, he's a for sure NHL player. I look back at that draft, and see some small guys, who are looking like they can't play any defence, and if they don't translate super high offence, won't be in the NHL.

[Alflives]

Do you have any evidence supporting that claim?

Is there empirical data to support this assertion? I don't know. It's my opinion, which is based on watching the games, and listening to comments from, the so called experts, over the years. Bigger guys often take more time to fully understand their bodies. Maybe it has to do with maturing a bit later, or more dificulty developing fitness at a young age? Don't we have an example on our team of a smaller guy putting up big numbers in junior, who is having trouble now that the bigger guys have caught up to him in development - Vey? Maybe other posters know of these little water bugs, who do well in junior ( and often in the AHL too) but it does not translate to the bigger bodied NHL. I think Patrick Kane is one of the best (most talented who affects the game) that I have ever watched play, but I really believe he is by far the exception.

[elvis15]

"likely" NHL'er =/= "for sure" NHL player

[uselessstats]

Cool, so there were no other players with similar numbers to Virtanen in his junior years that didn't turn out to be Lucic, Ladd or Byfuglien. I can rest easy now knowing statistical probability is in our favour.

/sarcasm

But really, there's some concern there he won't have that top end that we'd expect out of our highest pick since the Sedins. He does have that safety net of likely being an NHL'er since he can still play with speed and strength, but people have every right to be worried if his offence will translate as even a top 6 player to the NHL.

No doom and gloom, sky is falling posts, just realistic assessments to what he may become in the NHL.

While I think most of your post is fair (even if I have a more generous opinion of Virtanen's chances), I do think the "highest pick since the Sedins" thing really needs to stop. Whether he's the highest or there were 10 #1 picks since then has no bearing on what Jake is as a prospect. Expectations need to be based on a) Who else was available in the 2014 draft, and b.) How other picks in the same range as Jake have turned out. That is all that is fair to use as a benchmark for expectations. The post-Sedin thing is irrelevant. Edited August 24, 2015 by uselessstats

[GMJB]

Cool, so there were no other players with similar numbers to Virtanen in his junior years that didn't turn out to be Lucic, Ladd or Byfuglien. I can rest easy now knowing statistical probability is in our favour.

/sarcasm

But really, there's some concern there he won't have that top end that we'd expect out of our highest pick since the Sedins. He does have that safety net of likely being an NHL'er since he can still play with speed and strength, but people have every right to be worried if his offence will translate as even a top 6 player to the NHL.

No doom and gloom, sky is falling posts, just realistic assessments to what he may become in the NHL.

I can turn right around and say so there have been no small offensive players with big numbers ( Like Nylander and Ehlers ) who have done nothing in the NHL due to high bust potential? cough Jordan Schroeder cough.

And yes Jamie Benn and Evander Kane were also power forwards who came out of the WHL who produced pretty significantly more than Virtanen and the other players I pointed out but were also touted as having higher potential than Virtanen. I used WHL comparisons since the OHL and QMJHL tend to be higher scoring leagues.

I understand your just trying to be realistic and I'm not trying to be a blind homer I'm just trying to show some enthusiasm and hope I can help others be a little more positive as well partly because I don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be.

Edited August 24, 2015 by GMJB

[Nave]

Virtanen still posted a point per game. Maybe not at a clip some wanted, but if he can be productive while being a physical force then we made a great pick.

[elvis15]

While I think most of your post is fair (even if I have a more generous opinion of Virtanen's chances), I do think the "highest pick since the Sedins" thing really needs to stop. Whether he's the highest or there were 10 #1 picks since then has no bearing on what Jake is as a prospect. Expectations need to be based on a) Who else was available in the 2014 draft, and b.) How other picks in the same range as Jake have turned out. That is all that is fair to use as a benchmark for expectations. The post-Sedin thing is irrelevant.

It has a bearing since if we aren't picking that high in other drafts (one 9th and two 10th overalls in between the Sedins and Virtanen) then we'd better hope we get someone who can really fill a void offensively we have in our prospect pool. So yes, it does matter.

I agree that draft year is still independent of the others purely for rating talent, and we don't know who after Virtanen has a guaranteed higher NHL career as yet, but we can't silo that draft and ignore the larger picture of what's happening either.

I can turn right around and say so there have been no small offensive players with big numbers ( Like Nylander and Ehlers ) who have done nothing in the NHL due to high bust potential? cough Jordan Schroeder cough.

And yes Jamie Benn and Evander Kane were also power forwards who came out of the WHL who produced pretty significantly more than Virtanen and the other players I pointed out but were also touted as having higher potential than Virtanen. I used WHL comparisons since the OHL and QMJHL tend to be higher scoring leagues.

I understand your just trying to be realistic and I'm not trying to be a blind homer I'm just trying to show some enthusiasm and hope I can help others be a little more positive as well partly because I don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be.

You could, but why would you. No one's arguing that. I'm just saying you can't tell people not to be worried because three players who are arguably similar have turned out.

Even if you want to look at Nylander and Ehlers (remember you brought them up again, not me) they're doing very well offensively. They have their own risks, but no one has said they're risk free.

My choice wouldn't have been Virtanen even if I'll support him now. His game has shown lots of positives but there are lots of concerns as well. The people who are all doom and gloom on his game aren't going to be convinced by you telling them not to worry, whether they see Nylander/Ehlers as better choices or something else altogether.

[GMJB]

It has a bearing since if we aren't picking that high in other drafts (one 9th and two 10th overalls in between the Sedins and Virtanen) then we'd better hope we get someone who can really fill a void offensively we have in our prospect pool. So yes, it does matter.

I agree that draft year is still independent of the others purely for rating talent, and we don't know who after Virtanen has a guaranteed higher NHL career as yet, but we can't silo that draft and ignore the larger picture of what's happening either.

You could, but why would you. No one's arguing that. I'm just saying you can't tell people not to be worried because three players who are arguably similar have turned out.

Even if you want to look at Nylander and Ehlers (remember you brought them up again, not me) they're doing very well offensively. They have their own risks, but no one has said they're risk free.

My choice wouldn't have been Virtanen even if I'll support him now. His game has shown lots of positives but there are lots of concerns as well. The people who are all doom and gloom on his game aren't going to be convinced by you telling them not to worry, whether they see Nylander/Ehlers as better choices or something else altogether.

Since people are so concerned with Virtanen for reasons of which are areas of positive for Nylander and Ehlers who were picked right after they seem like good examples to use even if they don't come right out and say that and besides most people seem to have wanted them instead any way.

Exactly you can point out flaws in every players game. Being worried about Virtanen's offense and using examples of players who have had high scoring junior careers and turned into high scoring NHL players is just as much cherry picking as me bring up Ladd Lucic and Byfuglien.

Your right about that.

[uselessstats]

It has a bearing since if we aren't picking that high in other drafts (one 9th and two 10th overalls in between the Sedins and Virtanen) then we'd better hope we get someone who can really fill a void offensively we have in our prospect pool. So yes, it does matter.

I agree that draft year is still independent of the others purely for rating talent, and we don't know who after Virtanen has a guaranteed higher NHL career as yet, but we can't silo that draft and ignore the larger picture of what's happening either.

What we *need* has no bearing on what we should *expect*.

You said:

But really, there's some concern there he won't have that top end that we'd expect out of our highest pick since the Sedins.

The lack of high picks in previous years has no bearing on what we can or should expect from the player we took 6th overall. How can it? He's the same player whether Vancouver selects him or Edmonton selects him.

I get that we need him to turn out perhaps more than other teams, but again our need is independent of what we should expect of the pick.

Where he was drafted and what players were available are pertinent to our expectations, but the length of time since we drafted higher isn't.

[MoneypuckOverlord]

Virtanen still posted a point per game. Maybe not at a clip some wanted, but if he can be productive while being a physical force then we made a great pick.

Yup,

Andrew Ladd was way below a point per game , and this was a 20 year old Andrew Ladd in the Dub

heck even Ryan Getlaz in his final WHL year, was just a 54 point season in 50 games.

[elvis15]

What we *need* has no bearing on what we should *expect*.

You said:

The lack of high picks in previous years has no bearing on what we can or should expect from the player we took 6th overall. How can it? He's the same player whether Vancouver selects him or Edmonton selects him.

I get that we need him to turn out perhaps more than other teams, but again our need is independent of what we should expect of the pick.

Where he was drafted and what players were available are pertinent to our expectations, but the length of time since we drafted higher isn't.

But it's not about expecting out of Virtanen, rather about expecting out of a 6th overall in general. I don't blame him for being picked where he was, but I do understand that we have that need and the concerns we have - minor or not - over Virtanen and his development aren't helped so far by a player or two that were available right after.