Do you think Nick Bonino is a 2nd line Center?

[oldnews]

He faced easy competition, thrived in it, and now he's going to face much harder competition as a 2nd line center. That has to be a concern. Will he be good enough to do well with legit 2nd line competition? I doubt it, based on this:

You can re-state it until you're blue in the face, but repeatedlty asserting something that isn't based in reality doesn't change that reality no matter how stubborn you are.

A corsi quality of competition of -0.055 is 55 one thousands off the NHL median. In other words, what you and others trying to harp on as weak/easy competition is virtually NHL average competition, which is precisely what you'd expect from a player that was a middle range 2nd/3rd line tweener.

The same is true of his offensive zone starts, which were a shade over 50% at 50.5. Arguing that these hairlines off of exactly median indicate some kind of sheltering or weak deployment is just nonsense regardless of how many times you try to revisit it and contradict the facts/objective outcomes with unsubstantiated opinions that yourself and Ban somehow think over-ride reality.

That Bonino faced practically dead center average competition, with practically dead center balanced ozone/dzone starts, played less than average 2C minutes, and produced exactly average 2C production is enough to indicate that that is exactly where he has placed himself at this stage of his career.

A few of you want to argue with the GMJB's assessment of Bonino, which is precisely supported by the objective outcomes and context of his play, and yet have nothing to back it up aside from opinionated assertions that contradict both the perspective of a seasoned NHL executive who's strength is precisely his player evaluation, and the underlying outcomes that are contained in Bonino's advanced statistics.

The fact that a guy like Brad Richardson is perceived as "sheltered" exemplifies in a nutshell that the two of you are speaking through your hats / don't know what you're talking about. Bonus points for persistence, but nothing to really substantiate it.

The thing about advanced stats are that they are a useful supplement to the game. They may not be necessary when a person is able to witness/watch (with a keen eye for the game) enough of a player to get a solid and broad perspective of their performance over time. The reality though, is that most people don't have enough time to watch 30 teams play 80+ games a season. We can know by observation what is also revealed in the advanced stats regarding our own team without necessarily needing to comb them if we watch and know our own team closely enough, but when it comes to the 800+ players in the NHL, those statistics become highly useful in confirming or contradicting impressions we get from small samples of seeing certain players perform.

The other thing about advanced stats - people that try to argue upstream against them, contradicting objective outcomes as if they are meaningless and their 'eye' for the game is superior - are f.o.s. Those folks tend to be the entertaining types who will argue with you that Phil Kessel is a good two way player, or that the Sedins are "sheltered". Of coure they devalue advanced stats - their perspective is based in nonsense contradicted by reality.

In the case of Bonino, what he showed head to head against us last year made him a highly desirable target in that Kesler negotiation imo. He showed exceptional hockey sense - call it what you want - a nose for the game and an instinctive intelligence regarding where to be on the ice, and where his team-mates and opponents are on the ice. He was simply a pain in the ass to play against. When you take those impressions and test them against his objective outcomes, what you get is a confirmation that he in fact has great vision - provides his linemates with exceptional scoring chances (reflected clearly in their shooting percentage differentials as SID pointed out). He also chooses his own spots very well, reflected in his own shooting percentage. In addition, he was highly successful in shootouts - a level of skill with the puck that this team can really use.

No, he may not be as fast, big or physical as Kesler. He may not handle Kesler's huge minutes - but that's not what people here are expecting. What is expected is that he be himself - bring what he brings - which in certain facets of the game are a distinct upgrade over what Kesler had to offer.

So, was Bonino, a former 1st round young D prospect/roster player, and a 1st (McCann) enough for the guy who (perhaps audaciously) furnished a list of two? I say hell yeah, I'll take that - and I can't wait to see how Bonino's strengths play out on this roster.

[oldnews]

The point was made to reflect the validity of my points about Bonino. I think it needed to be made a bit more clear why advanced stats even matter at all, and what types of players are required to get better advanced stats, as opposed to whining about who's actually more sheltered, Bonino or Perreault. To me, that line of discussion was far more meaningless.

You've utterly failed in attempting to make it clear why advanced stats matter - nor have you shown that you understand them or what you're talking about - or that you even bother to look at them.

As for 'whining' about who's actually more "sheltered" - you simply made a nonsense claim that was ironically contradicted by those statistics you are trying to peddle the importance of. You should have just given it up the first go around and acknowledged that claiming Bonino was the most sheltered center on their roster wasn't in fact true. Instead, you tried repeatedly to defend it. That's what makes this discussion a borderline waste of time and a test of patience.

[oldnews]

Bonino is a 7th round draft pick who did virtually nothing at the NHL level until last year when he hit the jackpot on an overstacked team and was rewarded with generous PP time.

He will return down to earth playing on a not-so stacked team .

Who could argue with that?

Or perhaps more appropriately - who would bother?

Thanks for summing it up so succinctly.

Who could possibly have anything to add to that wealth of context, so well distilled?

Nothing left to learn.

[JiffyPB]

When their power play did click, however, it was Perry, Getzlaf and Fowler doing all the heavy lifting, with Bonino looking alright on the right boards with them.

You could say the same about Kesler when he was here because all he did was whack his stick on the ice waiting for the Sedins and Salo/Ehrhoff to feed him a pass or just get a garbage goal. The point is that I'd be way more concerned if Bonino didn't score in those situations rather than the fact he DID produce with those players (and on a terrible PP unit to boot that only clicked at 16%). Either way Vrbata cancels Kesler's departure out and Bonino gives us the option of rolling 2 PP units instead of heavily relying on one as we did the past 2 years.

[oldnews]

You could say the same about Kesler when he was here because all he did was whack his stick on the ice waiting for the Sedins and Salo/Ehrhoff to feed him a pass or just get a garbage goal. The point is that I'd be way more concerned if Bonino didn't score in those situations rather than the fact he DID produce with those players (and on a terrible PP unit to boot that only clicked at 16%). Either way Vrbata cancels Kesler's departure out and Bonino gives us the option of rolling 2 PP units instead of heavily relying on one as we did the past 2 years.

Yeah, if you wanted to be reductive and oversimplify things like BAN is so committed to, you could say that all Kesler did was whack his stick on the ice looking for one-timers off the left half-boards or face off circle. But in fairness to Kesler, he also provided a very good net front presence and was adept at getting his stick on point shots that made it through - I remember him getting his stick on plenty of Ehrhoff's shots, who had a knack of taking what he needed off his shot in order to get it through traffic and on net.

Kesler was also quite strong at retrieving loose pucks, winning battles down low and regaining possession that he's feed back to Henrik on the right half boards. I think in many ways he was a great fit on the top pp unit, with that combination of footspeed, grit, and a great right handed shot that complimented the Sedins very well.

Bonino likewise has a lot more going for him than the nonsense reductions being offered by the poopoo crowd in this thread. If being an excellent distributor of the puck, having great vision, and the ability to finish himself alone are not enough, then what those attributes could bring centering the second unit (if that's where he winds up) might be lost on some people.

[TOMapleLaughs]

Advanced stats with no tangible conclusion, ignoring various facts, including stats, and of course context about the player, and trumpeting a one 9-2 game sampling in which he lit up our rook goaltenders while our team mailed it in entirely... Might be a bit of simplification?

[SamJamIam]

Advanced stats with no tangible conclusion, ignoring various facts, including stats, and of course context about the player, and trumpeting a one 9-2 game sampling in which he lit up our rook goaltenders while our team mailed it in entirely... Might be a bit of simplification?

You can teach knowledge but it's a damn shame you can't teach intelligence...

[Diakonos]

TOML is intelligent. He's just very guarded.

[Benchsplinters]

Not on a cup contending team he isn't.

The guy has just played 200 NHL regular season games. Are you not being a bit premature in your remark about him. Where would you be with your statement if the Canucks just happen to luck out next season and be a contender. Your remark is just to presumptuous at this time in his very young career. How about giving him a chance to prove himself before you mark him into another position due to an unqualified assumption or opinion.

[Benchsplinters]

It seems like some people don't think a 26 year old just entering his prime is going to get better, despite the fact that he has been trending upwards for the last three seasons.

Right on DeNiro. I believe Benning and Desjardins are more qualified to determine where Bonino should play. Right now they believe he is a second line center and that is good enough for me until he proves otherwise.

[Benchsplinters]

Bonino is a 7th round draft pick who did virtually nothing at the NHL level until last year when he hit the jackpot on an overstacked team and was rewarded with generous PP time.

He will return down to earth playing on a not-so stacked team .

Thanks for turning out and sharing

[DeNiro]

Right on DeNiro. I believe Benning and Desjardins are more qualified to determine where Bonino should play. Right now they believe he is a second line center and that is good enough for me until he proves otherwise.

I find it funny that some people act like Benning and co don`t have access to all the same stats that everyone on here does. Like CDC has somehow discovered details about Bonino that they`re not aware of.

Truth is they have all the numbers too, and even more in depth ones. Acquiring players isn`t all about the numbers though, there`s lots of other factors that go into it.

[BanTSN]

You can re-state it until you're blue in the face, but repeatedlty asserting something that isn't based in reality doesn't change that reality no matter how stubborn you are.

A corsi quality of competition of -0.055 is 55 one thousands off the NHL median. In other words, what you and others trying to harp on as weak/easy competition is virtually NHL average competition, which is precisely what you'd expect from a player that was a middle range 2nd/3rd line tweener.

The same is true of his offensive zone starts, which were a shade over 50% at 50.5. Arguing that these hairlines off of exactly median indicate some kind of sheltering or weak deployment is just nonsense regardless of how many times you try to revisit it and contradict the facts/objective outcomes with unsubstantiated opinions that yourself and Ban somehow think over-ride reality.

That Bonino faced practically dead center average competition, with practically dead center balanced ozone/dzone starts, played less than average 2C minutes, and produced exactly average 2C production is enough to indicate that that is exactly where he has placed himself at this stage of his career.

A few of you want to argue with the GMJB's assessment of Bonino, which is precisely supported by the objective outcomes and context of his play, and yet have nothing to back it up aside from opinionated assertions that contradict both the perspective of a seasoned NHL executive who's strength is precisely his player evaluation, and the underlying outcomes that are contained in Bonino's advanced statistics.

The fact that a guy like Brad Richardson is perceived as "sheltered" exemplifies in a nutshell that the two of you are speaking through your hats / don't know what you're talking about. Bonus points for persistence, but nothing to really substantiate it.

The thing about advanced stats are that they are a useful supplement to the game. They may not be necessary when a person is able to witness/watch (with a keen eye for the game) enough of a player to get a solid and broad perspective of their performance over time. The reality though, is that most people don't have enough time to watch 30 teams play 80+ games a season. We can know by observation what is also revealed in the advanced stats regarding our own team without necessarily needing to comb them if we watch and know our own team closely enough, but when it comes to the 800+ players in the NHL, those statistics become highly useful in confirming or contradicting impressions we get from small samples of seeing certain players perform.

The other thing about advanced stats - people that try to argue upstream against them, contradicting objective outcomes as if they are meaningless and their 'eye' for the game is superior - are f.o.s. Those folks tend to be the entertaining types who will argue with you that Phil Kessel is a good two way player, or that the Sedins are "sheltered". Of coure they devalue advanced stats - their perspective is based in nonsense contradicted by reality.

In the case of Bonino, what he showed head to head against us last year made him a highly desirable target in that Kesler negotiation imo. He showed exceptional hockey sense - call it what you want - a nose for the game and an instinctive intelligence regarding where to be on the ice, and where his team-mates and opponents are on the ice. He was simply a pain in the ass to play against. When you take those impressions and test them against his objective outcomes, what you get is a confirmation that he in fact has great vision - provides his linemates with exceptional scoring chances (reflected clearly in their shooting percentage differentials as SID pointed out). He also chooses his own spots very well, reflected in his own shooting percentage. In addition, he was highly successful in shootouts - a level of skill with the puck that this team can really use.

No, he may not be as fast, big or physical as Kesler. He may not handle Kesler's huge minutes - but that's not what people here are expecting. What is expected is that he be himself - bring what he brings - which in certain facets of the game are a distinct upgrade over what Kesler had to offer.

So, was Bonino, a former 1st round young D prospect/roster player, and a 1st (McCann) enough for the guy who (perhaps audaciously) furnished a list of two? I say hell yeah, I'll take that - and I can't wait to see how Bonino's strengths play out on this roster.

It was icetime, not qualcomp (although his qualcomp wasn't a huge concern, it was also among their lowest for centers) that was my main concern about Bonino as a so-called '2nd line center'. Up to this point he simply hasn't played the ES minutes required for it. So I did an eyeball test to reveal why that may be.

Zone starts were also not the concern. I would not play him as a defensive zone guy though since that is not his strength. I also would not grant him Sedin-like zone starts because he's not entitled to those here. So he'll be deployed averagely. That became pretty clear after the eyeball test as well.

Nobody's arguing that he isn't the exceedingly average player. Everthing points toward that. The argument is more that he's not a '2nd line center'. The eyeball test doesn't reveal anything else. The advanced stats do do reveal anything else. And not even Benning is arguing against it. (Is this an argument about Bonino? Or an argument in support of using advanced stats to make final determinations on a player without even watching the player?)

Who in the hell said Brad Richardson is sheltered here? He played the hardest minutes among our teams' centers last season and is really over his head in that role imho. He was looking more worn-down by the shift late last year and out of gas. To me, this is part of the concern with Bonino replacing Kesler, who played shutdown minutes himself. The roles will have to be spread amongst our defensive-type guys, assuming Richardson and Matthias, and neither are corsi cuties. I suppose Matthias can grow into that role, and I hope he does, but the Canucks up to this point aren't even convinced he's a center.

I agree that advanced stats are useful. The led me to make some determinations that I had made before the eyeball test. But I'm wondering if advanced stats would reveal that he has a pretty decent shot from the left boards, he's not all that fast, doesn't drive the net all that much 5-on-5, he's not all that physical, he played on the 4th line a lot, or he pretty much was a 100% 2nd assist, wide-open slot pass and rebound benefactor on their power play? Do advanced stats conclude that his points earned with Palmieri were gained primarily through Palmieri's efforts? Or would advanced stats conclude that he won't see Sedin power play time because he and Henrik play the same spot there. No to all.

Advanced stats are only a guide. Scouts use them as such. NHL teams use them as such. They are not, and should not, be the end-all to any player discussion.

Bonino was targeted by Benning because Anaheim was willing to part with him, he's inexpensive, and he can take a fair amount of draws. We needed a cheap, draw-taking center as part of the return or we were going to be in some real trouble. Without him we'd exhaust Henrik, Richardson, Matthias after a few months. With him, Desjardins has that option and is able to compete game-to-game during this season a bit more admirably.

Considering Kesler forced our hand and Anaheim held all the cards, the return is about as good as we could hope for.

Meanwhile Anaheim is making adjustments that will take them deeper into the playoffs. With Koivu's sudden decline they needed a difficult-minutes center to take the pressure off of Getzlaf. Kesler does that quite well. They also replaced Perreault with the underrated Nate Thompson, who's a bit bigger, faster, cheaper and more defensively adept than Perreault. They also have around $11mil in cap space which will come in real handy at the deadline when they scoop up some playoff help. Basically they're making moves that will hopefully take them past LA.

[Peaches]

Bonino is a 7th round draft pick who did virtually nothing at the NHL level until last year when he hit the jackpot on an overstacked team and was rewarded with generous PP time.

He will return down to earth playing on a not-so stacked team .

Ok, WHAT IN THE HELL DOES HIS DRAFT POSITION HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?!

I've seen this argument multiple times on his forum, and it is the single most idiotic thing I have ever heard. Oh, and by the way, playing on a stacked team doesn't necessarily mean more points.

[William_Clarkson]

A corsi quality of competition of -0.055 is 55 one thousands off the NHL median. In other words, what you and others trying to harp on as weak/easy competition is virtually NHL average competition, which is precisely what you'd expect from a player that was a middle range 2nd/3rd line tweener.

The fact that a guy like Brad Richardson is perceived as "sheltered"

So, was Bonino, a former 1st round young D prospect/roster player, and a 1st (McCann) enough for the guy who (perhaps audaciously) furnished a list of two? I say hell yeah, I'll take that - and I can't wait to see how Bonino's strengths play out on this roster.

I was using realative corsi QoC, which he was below average in. Still, good to see when it's corsi adjusted he's at a normal rate.

The reason I mentioned Richardson was just to show (according to realtive corsi QoC) Bonino faced easier competition than our 3rd line. I don't think Richardson is sheltered, I should have worded that better.

I was fine with the return for Kesler.

[xereau]

Honestly, all the stat massaging and back and forth bickering here, means nothing.

We need to see him play at least half a season before making any kind of determination.

7 pages of armchair prophets speculatively one upping each other sure is entertaining, but come on now, lets get a grip here...

[GreyHatnDart]

I think we're making mountains out of molehills here.

Fact of the matter is, is there isn't a tonne of Ryan Kesler's around. Selke winning, goal scoring centreman aren't a dime a dozen unfortunately.

I feel like Bonino can and will replace his lost points. I've only seen him play maybe a few games, so my thoughts are mostly based on stats. The guy clearly can pass the puck and finish plays. Anaheim had him on their top PP for a reason after all.

Kesler's defensive side will be the most missed I feel. Bonino isn't that kind of player. Does this have to be a bad thing? Consider the fact our bottom six is much more balanced and rounded, and we won't NEED Kesler playing huge minutes to play defensive hockey.

Obviously it's a little early to judge how Bonino will play on this team. There's nothing wrong with having a more offensively minded player as your 2C.

Speculation is a good time, but lets let the guy pull on a 'Nucks jersey and see where he's at come the all-star break.

[Benchsplinters]

I think we're making mountains out of molehills here.

Fact of the matter is, is there isn't a tonne of Ryan Kesler's around. Selke winning, goal scoring centreman aren't a dime a dozen unfortunately.

I feel like Bonino can and will replace his lost points. I've only seen him play maybe a few games, so my thoughts are mostly based on stats. The guy clearly can pass the puck and finish plays. Anaheim had him on their top PP for a reason after all.

Kesler's defensive side will be the most missed I feel. Bonino isn't that kind of player. Does this have to be a bad thing? Consider the fact our bottom six is much more balanced and rounded, and we won't NEED Kesler playing huge minutes to play defensive hockey.

Obviously it's a little early to judge how Bonino will play on this team. There's nothing wrong with having a more offensively minded player as your 2C.

Speculation is a good time, but lets let the guy pull on a 'Nucks jersey and see where he's at come the all-star break.

Good idea. He needs an opportunity to prove himself before he starts getting critiqued and labelled.

[oldnews]

Honestly, all the stat massaging and back and forth bickering here, means nothing.

We need to see him play at least half a season before making any kind of determination.

7 pages of armchair prophets speculatively one upping each other sure is entertaining, but come on now, lets get a grip here...

Ironic, really.

Honestly, what meaning have you added here?

If you want to do something useful, by all means, go do something useful.

Oh, we need to see him play another half season before we can have opinions... then we can all come here and hindsight, because that is so much more meaningful than speculating whether a player can live up to their role.

Coming to CDC to suggest that people 'get a grip' because they're answering a question whether they consider Bonino a 2nd line center (whatever they base their perspective on, whether that's their eye for the game, stats, or flipping a coin)... with all due respect, is your point any less of a waste of time?

That's what people do on these boards. I always find it ironic when people come here to post their alternative one-up as if they're above the discussion.

Read the thread title. What were you expecting?

[Absent Canuck]

Ok, WHAT IN THE HELL DOES HIS DRAFT POSITION HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?!

I've seen this argument multiple times on his forum, and it is the single most idiotic thing I have ever heard. Oh, and by the way, playing on a stacked team doesn't necessarily mean more points.

Your post is childish. People having different points of view than yours is not the end of the world. Get over it.