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How does Dave Nonis still have a job?


Big Time

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I have long been of the opinion that Dave Nonis is one of the most mediocre GM's in the history of the league. If it weren't for Brian Burke constantly bringing him into situations and then Nonis taking Burke's place when Burke inevitably gets fired, I doubt Nonis would ever have been a GM in the first place. His management in Vancouver, outside of the Luongo trade, was terrible from top to bottom. From overpaying his own FA's, to trading second round picks like water, to his terrible draft record (sorry but Bourdon over Kopitar? RIP Luc but god damn it that miss changed the course of the franchise), Nonis' reign of error in Vancouver was not one to remember.

When he resurfaced as Burke's right hand man in Toronto, and subsequently became the GM, I used to laugh with my friends in Toronto because I knew what they were in for. A man whose vision is completely out of date with the modern NHL, someone who will vastly overpay for underperforming players (Clarkson), someone who does not place a value on drafting skill, and will never make any moves of consequence for the team. He's a conservative, boring version of Brian Burke. Nonis still can't seem to get over Vancouver, as he seems to sign every Canuck castaway (Raymond, Santorelli, Booth).

If you read the article by James Mirtle today, it casts an even more unflattering light. Lieweke sounds like a moron, but he's basically saying that Shanahan came in and said we're going to get smart. Just check out the backhanded slams on the current Nonis regime:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/tim-leiweke-on-the-leafs-analytics-make-us-smarter/article20577263/?cmpid=rss1&click=dlvr.it.

Lieweke is basically saying that Nonis has no real approach to player evaluation, fired all of his old school assistants, and even talks about how Nonis has openly bashed the types of measures that may have helped him better evaluate the team.

I don't have any sympathy for David Nonis. I think his performance speaks for itself. However I honestly have to wonder how it is that this guy remains employed by the Leafs. He seems to be as inept as John Ferguson Jr. Seems like the Leafs would be better off firing him now so that Burke can pick him up in Calgary to help him build his latest version of playoff-missing teams with truculence.

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Leiweke also made the point that the Leafs will continue to pursue “character” as well as players with good analytics, noting that “there are players we have in our organization today whose numbers are off the chart good and whose character is just terrible. I don’t care how good your numbers are, if you have bad character, you are doomed for failure.

ooh, juicy

As has been said in recent Leafs threads, both Nonis and Carlyle are likely just being kept around so that they can be fall guys / human sacrifices when the fan base has their pitchforks out mid-season.

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Come on, you can't blame him for Kopitar....except Crosby and Price, all of the 8 picks before Kopitar were mistakes (Bobby Ryan a small one), so it's not just Nonis. Plus, we will never know what or what not Bourdon would have become. He might have been that missing piece of the backend in 2011. He was an important piece for Team Canada's gold medals at the WHJC, just like Seabrook, Weber, Letang, Doughty, Subban were.

For everything else you are right, but let's not complain, he's the GM of the Leafs, not ours anymore.

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1. Another analytics article? Joy! This hype job in TO reminds me of Gillis coming in here and bringing 'Money Puck', which essentially inflated the value of Kyle Wellwood.

2. Wait, TO wasn't using these simple stats before? Or they were, and this is just a big overblown hype job?

3. If Shanny (who has zero management experience) was brought in to make the team 'smarter', then why have some the moves not fallen in-line with corsi-friendliness? Why trade Gunnarrsson (who's fairly overrated imho) for a much more 'intangibles' guy like Polak? The move has been ripped by stats nerds across the board.

And why bring in Robidas, who might be close to being done? A signing to bring in proven veteran experience to help the young up-and-comers is definitely old-school.

These moves might work or they might not, but they kinda fly in the face of 'smart' analytics, don't they?

4. Are they trying to say that the Clarkson signing wouldn't have happened if they had analytics? But didn't he actually have some good numbers in NJ prior to receiving that bloated contract in TO? He didn't face the hardest qualcomp, but his zone starts weren't friendly either and he had pretty good corsirel. No he's not worth the money or term he got from TO, but the numbers looked at only help the decision, not discredit it.

5. Tim also mentioned seeking out good character guys. Then why go ahead and sign David Booth? Oh yeah, he's a real character, for sure.

I think at the end of the day you still need context. Focusing on one attribute like corsi or fenwick and you'll just ignore other very important attributes, and that's a mistake. Tim kinda eludes to that, but with all this analytics hype coming from TO now, I can definitely see a trend starting point. I guess wait and see what happens.

imho TO needs to make some serious efforts to win with their current group though. They have a 3-4 year window starting now. But they still lack some vital pieces. Just not seeing it getting done, and regardless of how 'smart' they're getting, they'll be playing catchup for their groups' prime years. Again reminds me of Gillis' time here.

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Better question is, why do you hate Nonis so much?

While I am neutral on Nonis, most of your points about him being a bad GM is a stretch.

Such as drafting Bourdon over Kopitar, there's so much wrong with this point.

- We will never know what Bourdon is capable of, RIP

- Bourdon is a dman, maybe Nonis as the GM, thought that we needed to stock up on defence.

- 7-8 GMs also drafted other players over the #11th Kopitar.

Clarkson signing is also a stretch. Clarkson is signed because he scored 30 goals+ in the previous 2 seasons and he plays a physical game. Paying 5mil/year for such a player is not "vastly overpaying". And I am sure many teams were bidding for Clarkson that year. I am even sure if there was a Canucks post back then about signing Clarkson for 5mil/year, 90% of the replies would be like hell yes on here.

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Other than the Lu trade I never liked anything Nonis did. So many wasted 2nd rounders and completely useless rentals at the trade deadlines. Anyone remember Noronen? well he ended up being the 2nd rounder we could've used to draft Lucic, I know that's a stretch to say but Lucic being a homegrown player and all, I'd say there was a good chance we would've taken him if we still had the pick.

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Clarkson signing is also a stretch. Clarkson is signed because he scored 30 goals+ in the previous 2 seasons and he plays a physical game.;

Did you mean to say that he had 30+ goals combined over the previous two years before Toronto signing, or that he had 30 goals each year? Because just for clarification, he only hit the 30 goal marker once. Otherwise, that Clarkson signing was a fail from the very moment they signed him. It's not as if he had years of consistent performance, he was a one year wonder, if that.

In retrospect, Jason Blake had 50+ points a few times with the Leafs; but even he was considered a bad signing during his time with the Leafs. Clarkson, on the otherhand, is a monumental misfire. The only reason TSN isn't crapping all over it is because it's Toronto. If it were any other Canadian team, they would be all over how bad of a move it was.

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Nonis could have traded Kesler, Edler, and Schneider to Tampa Bay for Richards. Aquas wanted him to, he didn't, and got the can.

Say what you will, but we probably never would have enjoyed the 2010 run if Nonis was more interested in keeping his job than building a winner.

EDIT: The Clarkson signing was all about a team being in love with the idea of a player than with the player himself.

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Better question is, why do you hate Nonis so much?

While I am neutral on Nonis, most of your points about him being a bad GM is a stretch.

Such as drafting Bourdon over Kopitar, there's so much wrong with this point.

- We will never know what Bourdon is capable of, RIP

- Bourdon is a dman, maybe Nonis as the GM, thought that we needed to stock up on defence.

- 7-8 GMs also drafted other players over the #11th Kopitar.

Clarkson signing is also a stretch. Clarkson is signed because he scored 30 goals+ in the previous 2 seasons and he plays a physical game. Paying 5mil/year for such a player is not "vastly overpaying". And I am sure many teams were bidding for Clarkson that year. I am even sure if there was a Canucks post back then about signing Clarkson for 5mil/year, 90% of the replies would be like hell yes on here.

This has nothing to do with who the Canucks did draft (Bourdon, RIP) , but the Canucks missed out big time not drafting Kopitar. I fully expected the Canucks to take him considering he was still available, but of course they passed and the Kings wasted no time snapping him up.

From that draft class, only Crosby has put up more points than Kopitar.

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ooh, juicy

As has been said in recent Leafs threads, both Nonis and Carlyle are likely just being kept around so that they can be fall guys / human sacrifices when the fan base has their pitchforks out mid-season.

Carlyle was kept around in case Babcock chooses to leave Detroit.

No idea why Nonis is still here.

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Did you mean to say that he had 30+ goals combined over the previous two years before Toronto signing, or that he had 30 goals each year?

Not defending the signing at all but Clarkson paced for 30 in the lockout year.

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Carlyle was kept around in case Babcock chooses to leave Detroit.

No idea why Nonis is still here.

Should have hired best coach avail regardless.

Anyone should happily accept a re-assignment if Babcock (or Quenneville) comes avail.

Nonis? He's doing what Gillis did his last 2 years; jugglling his mistakes...

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Clarkson signing is also a stretch. Clarkson is signed because he scored 30 goals+ in the previous 2 seasons and he plays a physical game. Paying 5mil/year for such a player is not "vastly overpaying". And I am sure many teams were bidding for Clarkson that year. I am even sure if there was a Canucks post back then about signing Clarkson for 5mil/year, 90% of the replies would be like hell yes on here.

Clarkson has one 30 goal season and never hit 20 otherwise, but as for the 2nd part you're sure of, have a search and a bump and get back to us - you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the majority of posters here thinking the Leafs were nuts at the time, and hindsight certainly hasn't altered that.

We're talking about a franchise that didn't seem to have a clue about their own glue. Their best two way players were ushered out of town - and what a mystery - they're a horrible puck possession team. They just dealt a top 4 - their best shutdown defenseman (the guy that made Phaneuf look better than he is), +, for an over-rated depth defenseman (but, but he's physical). Their 'leadership' group lacks as much character as any in the NHL - so they showed them the money and threw in a whole lot of term to go with it - when they should have started rebuilding by dealing them. Their prospect pool is no screaming hell despite being a bad team for a long time. Their concept of cap space is straight out of orbit. '

They make the Flames under Feaster look relatively incisive.

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