[RUMOUR] Canucks discussing Horvat trade?

[Frazzy Desjardins]

Best case scenario for a Horvat trade:

Minnesota trades a 3rd round draft pick for Mason Raymond. Then...

Minnesota receives:

- Horvat

Vancouver receives:

- Raymond

- Ballard

- 1st

Boom.

Hahaha /thread.

[terrible.dee]

^^^ He was being sarcastic as the comment he was replying to was really stupid

Really? do tell....

Care to explain exactly why trading what appears to be a bottom 6 asset that we paid a startting line up price for, is "stupid"?

Corry Shnieder had value, and no matter how good a 3 rd line deffensive center Bo becomes, if he does dont break the top 6, we lose the trade.

Bo's skating tells a vivid story to anyone who has either played/managed or is a keen observer of the game, Canucks managment are all three.

So now it seems they are seeing what the rest of the league think he's worth, my guess is they have a pretty good idea of what they have and want to maximize the asset's potential value before it is too late and he is pegged by all as a checker. Potential trade value = Gone.

Be sure to forwrd your comments to Trevbenning I'm not sure they've realised they are "stupid" yet, so you best fill them in.

[terrible.dee]

Just stop - give it up, and move on.

Your precious is already -4, no points in 3 games, and demoted from the top 6.

How many years later and the delusion still persists that Hodgson was somehow ready to drive an NHL bus when he was traded. Fantasy.

We've waited 3 years, ironically, Surfer, and the baseline myth that your story rests upon has been exposed. Time to let go of that myth. Buffalo is still waiting.

Kassian has been here the whole time. Those of you 'waiting' on him are oblivious - to where the departed is himself - and where a young player should be at these points of their career.

The vast majority of even elite young players take time. Get used to it.

Allow me to point out that the reason CH is such a different player in the NHL is because of his skating,

He does not have the wheels to play center at this level and not put his team at a defensive disadvantage,

He chose to focus on goal scoring, I'm sure he knows how to play excellent D, but without the physical tools to play a 200 ft. game he needed to do something to maintain an NHL job, so he is poor defensivley, but keeps himself in a possition the score.

Same choice Horvat faces, If he tries to be fully engaged in the offense can he get back in time to do what a center must defensivley? That is to cover the back of the net and the slot?

No he would arive late, thus he seems to have chosen, much like Cody, to focus on one part of his game, to aquire and maintain NHL employment.

So just like Cody, he is good but limited. He may develop beyond this, but long-time obsevers/players of the game know it is not the most likley scenario.

We paid a top 6 (or top 4) price for this guy, and if Benning thinks he can turn Horvat into a surer return on investment, then I say do the job for which you were hiered, get us the best line-up possible.

[theminister]

Really? do tell....

Care to explain exactly why trading what appears to be a bottom 6 asset that we paid a startting line up price for, is "stupid"?

Corry Shnieder had value, and no matter how good a 3 rd line deffensive center Bo becomes, if he does dont break the top 6, we lose the trade.

Bo's skating tells a vivid story to anyone who has either played/managed or is a keen observer of the game, Canucks managment are all three.

So now it seems they are seeing what the rest of the league think he's worth, my guess is they have a pretty good idea of what they have and want to maximize the asset's potential value before it is too late and he is pegged by all as a checker. Potential trade value = Gone.

Be sure to forwrd your comments to Trevbenning I'm not sure they've realised they are "stupid" yet, so you best fill them in.

Except that Horvat's a plus skater.

[Monty]

Corry Shnieder had value, and no matter how good a 3 rd line deffensive center Bo becomes, if he does dont break the top 6, we lose the trade.

Going to have to respectfully disagree. Teams trade for what they need. The Canucks needed depth at center, an area that no longer seems to be an issue. They had Luongo, Schneider, and Lack.

Meanwhile, the Devils were in dire need of a goaltender. They had put all of their eggs in Marty's basket, that they realized when he was 40 that they had no legitimate option going forward. They needed a bonafide starter, the Canucks had some to spare.

In hindsight, only a year and a half later, the trade seems to be benefiting both teams. The Canucks look fine on the goaltender front (Miller, Lack, Markstrom, Demko), while the Devils were given exactly what they were looking for. The Canucks were able to nail down their future down the middle and seem in fine order once the Sedin's hang up their skates.

At the end of the day, the Canucks were not a Stanley Cup contender with Schneider in goal. Not that Schneider isn't great, but the window for the Canucks had officially closed. Receiving a 9th overall pick in an incredibly deep draft for a goaltender who had never played a full season was already a win in that trade. I've followed Schneider since he started playing for the Moose, as I was able to go to many of the games, and he is a great goaltender. However, the return the Canucks got for him was phenomenal. When was the last time a team traded a goaltender and received a top 10 pick in return?

Both teams got exactly what they needed.

[I.Am.Ironman]

Good thing for us (and Horvat) skating can be improved. It is a mix of skill and athleticism/power/anaerobic fitness etc. Many of the components that make of skating can be worked on and improved. Take the Sedins for example, they were dreadful skaters when they got into the league. They are far from the best skaters now but they have definitely improved in that department. So can Bo.

Besides I don't think it is as big of an issue as some people are making it out to be.

[oldnews]

Allow me to point out that the reason CH is such a different player in the NHL is because of his skating,

He does not have the wheels to play center at this level and not put his team at a defensive disadvantage,

He chose to focus on goal scoring, I'm sure he knows how to play excellent D, but without the physical tools to play a 200 ft. game he needed to do something to maintain an NHL job, so he is poor defensivley, but keeps himself in a possition the score.

Same choice Horvat faces, If he tries to be fully engaged in the offense can he get back in time to do what a center must defensivley? That is to cover the back of the net and the slot?

No he would arive late, thus he seems to have chosen, much like Cody, to focus on one part of his game, to aquire and maintain NHL employment.

So just like Cody, he is good but limited. He may develop beyond this, but long-time obsevers/players of the game know it is not the most likley scenario.

We paid a top 6 (or top 4) price for this guy, and if Benning thinks he can turn Horvat into a surer return on investment, then I say do the job for which you were hiered, get us the best line-up possible.

That is just plain oversimplified.

First of all, Hodgson's defensive vacancy does not reduce down to skating - it has every bit as much to do with indifference, a lack of awareness, and overall lack of effort/commitment. His zone coverage is atrotious quite frequently and that has nothing to do with foot speed.

Second, what you are suggesting about Horvat's skating would suggest you haven't been paying much attention, haven't seen the improvement in his speed, and are assuming that at the ripe age of 19 he's done developing. A lot of people gain a significant amount of speed over the next few years of their lives at that age.

What Horvat has over CH at this early stage is a great deal more strength, a much more refined concept of how to play the game without possession, and is much stronger in the faceoff circle. I'd also be willing to bet he's already significantly faster than Cody Hodgson.

[theminister]

That is just plain oversimplified.

First of all, Hodgson's defensive vacancy does not reduce down to skating - it has every bit as much to do with indifference, a lack of awareness, and overall lack of effort/commitment. His zone coverage is atrotious quite frequently and that has nothing to do with foot speed.

Second, what you are suggesting about Horvat's skating would suggest you haven't been paying much attention, haven't seen the improvement in his speed, and are assuming that at the ripe age of 19 he's done developing. A lot of people gain a significant amount of speed over the next few years of their lives at that age.

What Horvat has over CH at this early stage is a great deal more strength, a much more refined concept of how to play the game without possession, and is much stronger in the faceoff circle. I'd also be willing to bet he's already significantly faster than Cody Hodgson.

You don't have to bet.

He IS much faster than CH already.

Where this notion came from that BH is a mediocre skater I'll never understand.

[oldnews]

You don't have to bet.

He IS much faster than CH already.

Where this notion came from that BH is a mediocre skater I'll never understand.

Needless to say, I agree entirely.

[Bure to Mogilny]

I dont think we should trade him cause hes called up right now and might play some games witch he needs

We need to see him play

[Aussie_Canuck_07]

You don't have to bet.

He IS much faster than CH already.

Where this notion came from that BH is a mediocre skater I'll never understand.

Being in Australia and not being able to watch many games, only listen on 1040, i remember a few games where Tomlinson has remarked about just how deceptively quick Bo is. So i definetely second what you say based on that.

[Gollumpus]

You don't have to bet.

He IS much faster than CH already.

Where this notion came from that BH is a mediocre skater I'll never understand.

I suspect it is trolls who are attempting to use all of the (valid) criticisms of Hodgson's game, which were discussed here, in order to rankle others about Horvat's development. Soon we might see (if we haven't already) posts about how Horvat isn't physical, is poor in the face off circle and so on.

If anyone needs an up to date assessment of Hodgson they should look at any of the various Buffalo boards. There are those who are diehard Hodgson fans (go figure), but from what I see there is a growing contingent of folks who are becoming disenchanted with him.

Two different fan bases say that he's slow... I mean rather, that they think he's not really a fast skater.

regards,

G.

[D-Money]

/\

In 4 games so far, Hodgson only has 1 assist, is a -3, and has only 4 shots total. Zero hits (of course). This despite getting regular 2nd unit PP time.

...Easy to see why they'd be less than enamoured with him.

[higgyfan]

Horvat is a much better player than Hodgson. He's a better skater, better 2-way player, has better vision, better at faceoffs, stronger (can you imagine anyone calling CH 'Bull'), plays with more grit and is FIVE years younger.

CH will be 25 yrs old in February and has found his spot as the 3rd LW on the worst team in the league.

I don't know how anyone can think that CH will ever be anywhere near as good a player as BH.

[Me_]

Horvat is a much better player than Hodgson. He's a better skater, better 2-way player, has better vision, better at faceoffs, stronger (can you imagine anyone calling CH 'Bull'), plays with more grit and is FIVE years younger.

CH will be 25 yrs old in February and has found his spot as the 3rd LW on the worst team in the league.

I don't know how anyone can think that CH will ever be anywhere near as good a player as BH.

...or Kassian really...

[prana16]

/\

In 4 games so far, Hodgson only has 1 assist, is a -3, and has only 4 shots total. Zero hits (of course). This despite getting regular 2nd unit PP time.

...Easy to see why they'd be less than enamoured with him.

There are 2.. let me repeat that TWO players on the buff team that are + players.. they are both +1

[D-Money]

There are 2.. let me repeat that TWO players on the buff team that are + players.. they are both +1

Yeah, but Hodgson is still tied for 3rd worst +/- on the team. Small sample size though.

...But it goes back further. Look at last year:

Hodgson - 20G, 24A, -26, 1306:17 TOI, 226:05 PP TOI

Kassian - 14G, 15A, -4, 943:49 TOI, 51:32 PP TOI

We complain about Kassian's consistency, but I'm sure Buffalo would gladly trade back Hodgson for him.

As for Horvat, he's still an unknown. Nobody knows how he'll hold up in the NHL. We'll just have to wait and see.

[coryberg]

/\

In 4 games so far, Hodgson only has 1 assist, is a -3, and has only 4 shots total. Zero hits (of course). This despite getting regular 2nd unit PP time.

...Easy to see why they'd be less than enamoured with him.

Sam Gagne is about the closest compairable and was traded for a 6th round pick. Even the kassian haters should kiss MG's feet

[terrible.dee]

That is just plain oversimplified.

First of all, Hodgson's defensive vacancy does not reduce down to skating - it has every bit as much to do with indifference, a lack of awareness, and overall lack of effort/commitment. His zone coverage is atrotious quite frequently and that has nothing to do with foot speed.

Second, what you are suggesting about Horvat's skating would suggest you haven't been paying much attention, haven't seen the improvement in his speed, and are assuming that at the ripe age of 19 he's done developing. A lot of people gain a significant amount of speed over the next few years of their lives at that age.

What Horvat has over CH at this early stage is a great deal more strength, a much more refined concept of how to play the game without possession, and is much stronger in the faceoff circle. I'd also be willing to bet he's already significantly faster than Cody Hodgson.

I won't refute any of the points you made,

They are all solid, and true.

They do not, however, cancel out the validity the factors I mentioned.

True, it is an over simplafacation to say the only reason Cody's defensive game sucks is because of his skating, however that is still a major contributing factor.

In regards to watching Horvat, I have not seen much of his junior play, However, when I see him now, I see a smart player who is aware of his strentghs and weaknesses, and consciously puts himself in a position where his weakness's won't be exploited. Part of that means sacrificing offensive opportunity. It isn't hard to see the direction he is pointed in as far as what his role will be in the NHL.

That could all change, but as of now, it appears we have an excellent defensive forward entering the line-up. The question is whether TrevBenning think that other teams are willing to gamble on his offensive game flowering as well, if they are, then he may be used to acquire something they think is of greater value than what they would be giving up.

As far as improving your skating, I skate and have played (Rec league, pick up, nothing serious) I was always taught skaters are born not made, I have seen or read interviews where NHL'ers have echoed this idea. You can improve some, but not exponentially. If anyone wants to dispute this, please do some research before replying, I don't mind being proved wrong, but please be ready to back it up.

Anyway, In light of what I just mentioned, I believe Horvat will not be a significant offensive contributor during his NHL career, he's too smart to put himself in a position where he isn't playing to his strengths. This is not a guarantee, just my projection based upon available evidence, I will be more than happy if I am wrong.

I also believe it's possible Trev/Benn have come to a similar conclusion, and don't see Horvat as being the best fit for Trev's "Up-tempo" team vision, based on this, I don't think exploring trade options is completely far fetched.

[terrible.dee]

I suspect it is trolls who are attempting to use all of the (valid) criticisms of Hodgson's game, which were discussed here, in order to rankle others about Horvat's development. Soon we might see (if we haven't already) posts about how Horvat isn't physical, is poor in the face off circle and so on.

Discussing a players strengths and weaknesses does not equal trolling,

Anther poster disagreeing with you does not equal trolling.

This board exists for those who enjoy discussing/debating the finer points of hockey, the Canucks ect.

If we all agreed on everything it would be quite dull.

If I say Horvat's skating is likely to limit his offensive contribution, that is not a personal attack on you. The comment was not designed to make you angry, frustrated, sad..ect.

It is a point open for debate, nothing more.