J.I.A.H.N Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 Would any of you like to answer this question for me, Please During Team rebuilds/tune-up etc. Is it better to start with acquiring a first line center and #1 defenseman first, then acquiring the easier to obtain parts afterwards.? Or is it better to just take what ever you can get or BPA in the drafts and hope you get lucky? This question is posed, because, I believe it is worth spending assets to get these 2 positions, now and for the future...... To me it serves no purpose to go half way and then toil in mediocrity. We will slowly fall off, if we don't. We are not a team that can even compete for the Stanley cup and I see neither of these 2 positions filled on our team. We will end up somewhere between 12th and 18th best, this year........that is mediocrity.........please explain how I am wrong? 2 to 3 years from now we will have no Sedin's, no Hamhuis, etc......are you seeing something I am not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 GMs state from time immemorial build from the net out. But if you can draft a franchise defining center or D man...don't be the Oilers and draft a small puny winger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 We will end up somewhere between 12th and 18th best, this year........that is mediocrity.........please explain how I am wrong? No one can tell the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck2xtreme Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 Would any of you like to answer this question for me, Please During Team rebuilds/tune-up etc. Is it better to start with acquiring a first line center and #1 defenseman first, then acquiring the easier to obtain parts afterwards.? Or is it better to just take what ever you can get or BPA in the drafts and hope you get lucky? This question is posed, because, I believe it is worth spending assets to get these 2 positions, now and for the future...... To me it serves no purpose to go half way and then toil in mediocrity. We will slowly fall off, if we don't. We are not a team that can even compete for the Stanley cup and I see neither of these 2 positions filled on our team. We will end up somewhere between 12th and 18th best, this year........that is mediocrity.........please explain how I am wrong? 2 to 3 years from now we will have no Sedin's, no Hamhuis, etc......are you seeing something I am not? In a ground up scenario, I think who you select really depends on who's available, and more importantly, what kind of veteran presence you have already on the roster to bring the player along in their development. You can draft all the top end blue chippers you want at any position, but if you don't develop them properly, it will do you no good whatsoever. You can't take a 'hope you get lucky' mindset, or you've already lost. All things being equal, I'd take the #1 cornerstone defenceman, because they are just so damn hard to get any other way than to draft them yourself, and if you have a chance to draft a franchise defenceman, you have to take it. The question you're posing is working under the assumption that the team in question is building literally from the ground up. Vancouver does not need to do that. I do see a similar issue that you do in that the Sedins won't be around forever and so far, I see no legitimate heir to the first line center position. We have some candidates, but they'd need to develop extremely well and have pretty much everything go their way to reach that level. I would like to see some sort of transition period, where the Canucks bring in a strong young guy as the #2 center. Someone who could reasonably step into the #1 role and be the anchor for the team up front within 2 seasons, while the Sedins become the secondary scoring and transition the leadership to the younger players. Someone like Ryan Johansen comes to mind. Now, I'd have no idea what it would take to get him, that's a whole other discussion, but that's the kind of player I'd like to see. Most definitely easier said than done of course. As for defence, I am okay with a short term plan of strength in numbers rather than a Norris caliber #1 guy, only because they are so hard and so pricey to acquire by trade. Bieksa and Edler can hold the fort, Hamhuis may stick around longer and guys like Tanev are solid. We have a few decent defensive prospects as well, though none have that #1 pedigree. It's an area you'd definitely like to improve on, but the cost may do more harm than good, so in the short term, staying the course is the likely plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuxfanabroad Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 ^Above post is pretty solid, regarding the 'how-to' in Van's case. Sure helps if you luck into a few late-round gems. Or nab a D-stud with a perfect 2nd or 3rd rounder, like Det, Chi or Nash seem to manage. Having a beautiful city(attract UFA's), & rabid fan-base(allowing max spending), are factors basically in our favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asian player Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 I'd go with a number one defenseman that can do it all. We've seen how useful guys like Keith, Chara, and Doughty are when they can eat up 30 minutes a night in big playoff games. A franchise defenseman can contribute on the pp, pk, 5v5, 4v4, and in virtually any situation. I'd argue a franchise defenseman can contribute in more ways any center can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuck nit Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 When the team scored from the back end by committee there was an effective PP and PK-the best in the league. Now the team is not scoring from the back end as Tanev and Sbisa and Hamhuis rarely contribute and the team's offensive contribution is some 17% of total output. Benning can replace/upgrade the limited offensive contributors unless he lands a PP anchor for the second unit that can come in behind to eventually replace and compliment Edler on the first unit now . Essentially,Bieksa and/or Hamhuis have to be replaced with a young PMD but both have NTC's. Difficult to upgrade if the veterans won't leave to facilitate the team's transition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackcanuck Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 When the team scored from the back end by committee there was an effective PP and PK-the best in the league. Now the team is not scoring from the back end as Tanev and Sbisa and Hamhuis rarely contribute and the team's offensive contribution is some 17% of total output. Benning can replace/upgrade the limited offensive contributors unless he lands a PP anchor for the second unit that can come in behind to eventually replace and compliment Edler on the first unit now . Essentially,Bieksa and/or Hamhuis have to be replaced with a young PMD but both have NTC's. Difficult to upgrade if the veterans won't leave to facilitate the team's transition. Both Hamhuis's and Bieksa's contracts end after next season That will leave us with Edler signed long term($5M) Tanev is a RFA after this season and will command a substantial raise After next season we will have to replace 2 of our top 4 D men In 2 seasons Bieksa will be 35yrs and Hammer will be 34yrs We have a very poorly stocked cupboard of prospect D men, Right now, the best and probably only top 2 D man available is BUF Tyler Myers BUF wants at least a top roster player (Kass?), top prospect(Shink?) and a 1st - 2015 Myers is 6'8" 230lbs, right shot #1 D man, signed @$5.5M until 2019 He is only 24 yrs old and is in his 6th season on a not very good team Won the Calder trophy in his rookie year Edler is 28yrs and Tanev is 25yrs Players like Tyler Myers just do not become available often! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollumpus Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 1.) Who a team drafts can set the tone for how your re-build goes. Look at Edmonton, they would probably be a much different team right now had they taken Seguin and Landescog over Hall and RNH. Or, perhaps they should have gone with a top d-man prospect sooner than they did. TBL went top center in one year (Stamkos) and a top d-man prospect in the following (Hedman). 2.) It's also easy to say that a team should draft a particular type of player eg. a #1 d-man, but what if a forward is the odds on better prospect choice, and/or there aren't any highly rated d-men available when it's your turn to pick? Do you pick the best d-man prospect available and hope for the best? 3.) There's also skill in drafting and luck. How good would Nashville be if they hadn't drafted Weber in the 2nd round, with their third 2nd round pick? regards, G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 Well, your discussion piece started out generally but then it became clear you were talking about the Canucks. Those are different answers. Teams in general wouldn't go after a #1 center/defenceman/goalie as it'd depend on what they already have, but they'd likely look to identify a position of greatest need and then phone around to see how much it'd cost them to do that. We've gotten some very capable defencemen in the last decade or so, but the price to trade for or sign an established #1 D is just too much for a team like us to acquire. Similarly, Toronto has been chasing a #1 center since Sundin left and they haven't been able to just go out and find one at the store down the street either. On the flip side, the Canucks have had success finding a #1 goalie - both in trade, through the draft, and through free agency (as an undrafted free agent in Lack primarily, but also as a UFA in Miller). It does speak to the value of different positions a bit in that way though. That's why you generally try and draft that #1 center or defenceman. Easier said than done obviously. We can't just hope the next Weber/Subban/Suter/etc. to hit free agency decides to sign with us so we have a gap where we need to likely find a good young player that can become that for us. Maybe we can keep going by committee or we have someone like Hutton surprise at the pro level rather than just in junior or college, but we have a gap we'll likely need to trade for unless we get that top D in the next draft or two. As far as a center, we have had and still have a definitive #1 guy that plenty of other teams wish they had in Henrik. Things get a little more vague on who might be able to replace him, but we have some better chances of that happening from our prospect pool currently than we do with a defenceman. I'd still like to see that definitive top end offensive center in our system coming up, but in the very least our future depth through the top 6/top 9 might be enough to succeed if we have a legitimate top end scoring winger (or a few!) to supplement the offence like when we had Linden and Bure together back in '94. But I don't think we can spend the assets right now to get such a significant piece as an established player in either of those positions. I don't think most teams have those pieces. You might get an exception like Edmonton who really has to do something drastic to change their fortunes and has a lot of young talent that might make a deal possible. but generally you won't find a GM willing to pony up what it'd take to trade for Shea Weber or a Tyler Seguin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.I.A.H.N Posted December 25, 2014 Author Share Posted December 25, 2014 C2E, Elvis and G When I started this post, it was going to be major trades, but decided against that, as for the most part, posters like yourselves do not make too many comments to extreme trade posts.....not judging, just wish you would build on those type of posts... for example My trades were extreme, but answered what I thought was needed in the present and future, and were all basically centered around getting a #1 Center and #1 Dman Trade #1 Johansen for Bonino, 2016 1st, and Vey ( That is more than Kesler got IMO) Trade #2 Hamilton, Eriksson and Smith for Kassian, Higgins and 2015 1st (Cap reduction for Boston) Whether these deals fly or not, the point is that these type of overpayments will have to be done to get what we need. And this takes away the problem of searching for those 2 important positions. But we have to be willing to spend to get them. We could do similar in 2 year instead, but then our window with the Sedins has basically closed, as has Bieska's and Hamhuis........ Thanks for answering everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_314 Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 In trading or drafting, for us I think the assets need to go first into getting a top defensive prospect, or several good prospects who can then compose a good D core later on. In the meantime, getting young or emerging, Top-4 D-caliber assets should be a priority, and I would even be open to getting young underdeveloped guys (think Adam Larsson, even someone like Luke Schenn if we can get him for cheaper and reclaim him, much like we're trying with Sbisa). With at least some young guys as a foundation (good thing we still have Eddie and Tan-Man), we can groom the younger guys and maintain some longevity in the roster's competence at that position. C's should be drafted if they have #1 potential, since they're rarely let go to become UFA's unless they're overrated or overpriced, and trading for one would be pretty pricey for a team without depth in assets. As for wingers and goalies, I would say they are last on the priority list, since you can sign them as UFA's most often, centers can also slot over to the wing, and they seem to come at the lowest cost (of our Top-6 wingers, Higgins was acquired to be a 4th liner, Burr was signed as an undrafted UFA and Vrbata was a 7th-round pick). Goalies also go to UFA often now (signed Miller, signed Lack as FA, Osgood was signed when he won with Detroit), at should be dime-a-dozen. Well, I'm out. Merry Christmas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shazzam Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 1.) Who a team drafts can set the tone for how your re-build goes. Look at Edmonton, they would probably be a much different team right now had they taken Seguin and Landescog over Hall and RNH. Or, perhaps they should have gone with a top d-man prospect sooner than they did. TBL went top center in one year (Stamkos) and a top d-man prospect in the following (Hedman). 2.) It's also easy to say that a team should draft a particular type of player eg. a #1 d-man, but what if a forward is the odds on better prospect choice, and/or there aren't any highly rated d-men available when it's your turn to pick? Do you pick the best d-man prospect available and hope for the best? 3.) There's also skill in drafting and luck. How good would Nashville be if they hadn't drafted Weber in the 2nd round, with their third 2nd round pick? regards, G. RNH and Landeskog's point totals are nearly identical. Same with Seguin and Hall. Would Seguin and Landeskog really have more success in EDM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollumpus Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 RNH and Landeskog's point totals are nearly identical. Same with Seguin and Hall. Would Seguin and Landeskog really have more success in EDM? We're talking about two different things, chum. You're talking about personal stats/success, while I'm speculating more on team success. The example you're referencing was a choice between two centers and two wingers. I believe the Oilers would be a different team, and perhaps be experiencing greater success with Seguin and Landescog. Partly this has to do with their respective offensive talents, but also any differences in those various intangibles (leadership qualities, physicality, etc). regards, G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shazzam Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 We're talking about two different things, chum. You're talking about personal stats/success, while I'm speculating more on team success. The example you're referencing was a choice between two centers and two wingers. I believe the Oilers would be a different team, and perhaps be experiencing greater success with Seguin and Landescog. Partly this has to do with their respective offensive talents, but also any differences in those various intangibles (leadership qualities, physicality, etc). regards, G. I don't think Seguin and Landeskog would have as much success in EDM and I doubt they would turn out to be the players they are right now playing there. They would still have no defense and goaltending. How would they have more team success? They would still be at the bottom of the league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 C2E, Elvis and G When I started this post, it was going to be major trades, but decided against that, as for the most part, posters like yourselves do not make too many comments to extreme trade posts.....not judging, just wish you would build on those type of posts... for example My trades were extreme, but answered what I thought was needed in the present and future, and were all basically centered around getting a #1 Center and #1 Dman Trade #1 Johansen for Bonino, 2016 1st, and Vey ( That is more than Kesler got IMO) Trade #2 Hamilton, Eriksson and Smith for Kassian, Higgins and 2015 1st (Cap reduction for Boston) Whether these deals fly or not, the point is that these type of overpayments will have to be done to get what we need. And this takes away the problem of searching for those 2 important positions. But we have to be willing to spend to get them. We could do similar in 2 year instead, but then our window with the Sedins has basically closed, as has Bieska's and Hamhuis........ Thanks for answering everyone It may be more than Kesler commanded. Johanson is 6'3'' and 225 lbs, just 22 and breaking out and an assett to be an all star for the bulk of his career. Not just having 2 years on a contract late in his prime. Johanson is worth Waaaaaaay more than Kesler IMO. Hamilton, Eriksson and Smith? While putting in only one premium player plus a 1st in your offer? That is probably what it would take value wise to get Hamilton. And they still might opt to keep him. These trades would be awesome if they were realistic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvis15 Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 Technically, building on those blockbuster trades is the wrong way to think asbout it. If anything, posters should scale them back to make a more reasonable suggestion since value is nearly impossible to gauge with that many pieces. It may be more than Kesler commanded. Johanson is 6'3'' and 225 lbs, just 22 and breaking out and an assett to be an all star for the bulk of his career. Not just having 2 years on a contract late in his prime. Johanson is worth Waaaaaaay more than Kesler IMO. Hamilton, Eriksson and Smith? While putting in only one premium player plus a 1st in your offer? That is probably what it would take value wise to get Hamilton. And they still might opt to keep him. These trades would be awesome if they were realistic? Not to mention Johansen's not controlling his destiny by limiting trade options to just one team. Bonino would have to be a part of the deal, but likely a top prospect (Vey is good but doesn't cut it for CBJ I think) as well as the 1st to get CBJ interested. Agreed on the Boston deal as well. Eriksson isn't a throw in/cap dump enough to get Boston to move Eriksson and Smith for that type of return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.I.A.H.N Posted December 26, 2014 Author Share Posted December 26, 2014 OK........C2E, G, Elvis, Surfer I am not opposed to what you guys are saying, and that is why I posted my question.......do we simply watch the Sedins.etc., slowly fade away without ever really attempting to get ready for our next chapter? Are you opposed to an increased offer? #1. Johansen for Bonino, Horvat and Demko #2. Bowey/Morrissey/Pouliot for Kassian, Higgins and 2016 1st..........or Kassian for Morrow and 2015 2nd (Canucks retain cap) Somethings has to give??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuktravella Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 not giving up 3 assets for bowey morrissey or pouliot kassian and markstrom would be fair otherwise its a overpayment and id pass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuktravella Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 johansen for bonino, markstrom 1st 2016 and cassels or mccann woukd be slick i dont wanna give up horvat in a trade sedin sedin vrbata kassian johansen virtanen higgins horvat burrows dorsett gaunce mattias shinkaruk/ kenins as 13f next yr looks sick plus jensen and hansen and sbisa could be packaged for a dman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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