Nas19 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 These are risk reward picks. Its impossible to tell how these dynamic little spunks will be able to deal with NHL size ice, D men and forwards on the boards. Some guys have the absolute sheer compete level where their size does not matter, their heart does & their agility makes waves. Forget Patrick Kane > see Brendan Gallagher or Johnny Hockey. But for every Johnny Hockey there are many guys like Hunter Shinkaruk or Jordan Schroeder. Hey, JS is back in the NHL and I have not written off Hunter. However, many of these guys struggle to figure out how to manipulate their game around the overwhelming big bodies and punishment that is to be had. In some cases its just training? In Shinkaruk's case, I do not think his upper body strength is / was sufficient for him to be involved in the trenches on the boards. Check out the fore-arms and biceps, never mind the hulking shoulders below. Which was set back further by shoulder issues. Hopefully a dose of pro reality, and he will be hard at work in the gym to catch up this summer. http://2.cdn.nhle.com/canucks/images/upload/gallery/2013/08/BasementHunter_slide.jpg http://2.cdn.nhle.com/canucks/images/upload/2013/07/July913_prospects2_biggy.jpg I would prefer to draft someone whose size and athleticism are at NHL standards already in the mid to high first round. Hey, I could be making a mistake bundling Konecny in with pics of Shinkaruk and his shoulders. He is Horvat's cousin, lol. But I would be paying awfully close attention pre-draft fitness scores. And take ''risks'' on guys in later rounds. Noting also where Gaudreau and Gallagher were drafted to absolve such risk! Comparing Konecny to Shinkaruk or Schroeder is just wrong. Konecny has explosive speed, a great shot, and is thick and hits like a truck: Jordan Eberle in his draft year had 42 goals and 75 points. Claude Giroux had 103 points in his draft year. These guys should not have been picked 22 overall. Konecny may have only put up 68 points this year but he had a pretty bad concussion and a few bad injuries. He has an elite level skill set and whoever drafts him is going to get one hell of a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBackup Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I wouldn't mind Konecny if he falls to where we pick. I wouldn't mind a top notch defenseman either. But this idea that we have to draft a Dman in the first round is getting absurd. If you've got a forward and a defenseman and you're unsure who will be the better NHLer, take the position of need. However you simply do not pass up on a superior prospect to address a position of need. There are always players available later. There are always trades. There are always free agents. This team does need quality prospects on the back end. But getting tunnel vision about grabbing Defencemen will only come back to bite us in the ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiznak Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Konecny might be small, but he plays like he's 210. Sort of like Brian Gionta, when he was with the Devils, except way better hands, and skill set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanTSN Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 He plays like he's lugging 210lbs around instead of 172lbs. The elite speed isn't there. Neither is the big shot or elite puckhandling, but he is fine there. He's kind of shifty like Shinkaruk and Baertschi, but not possessing breakaway speed. They say he can play center, but he'll be more suited for the wing. Since winning OHL rookie of the year in 2014 he's been alright, but not remarkable, and this season he missed a real opportunity to step up, and has fallen in the draft. This TOTALLY reminds me of Shinkaruk. As for him being hard to play against, in his first playoff game this year he absorbed 14 hits but dished out only one. There will be no sandpaper in his game. It's just difficult for smaller guys without that breakaway speed or huge shot to progress to the next level. Do we just HAVE to pick this guy up? HELL no! We have so many forwards like him already there will be no need. Pick up a top defenseman instead. People think that top defensemen are available through trades and UFA's just watch as other teams pay more on trades and are able to keep their top UFA defenders locked up. Not addressing defense in the draft for a decade has already set us back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 we have to draft BPA. /disussion. I said we need to draft defensemen, I didn't say with our 1st rounder. But BPA isn't always the best choice. Ask Edmonton about that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Comparing Konecny to Shinkaruk or Schroeder is just wrong. Konecny has explosive speed, a great shot, and is thick and hits like a truck: Jordan Eberle in his draft year had 42 goals and 75 points. Claude Giroux had 103 points in his draft year. These guys should not have been picked 22 overall. Konecny may have only put up 68 points this year but he had a pretty bad concussion and a few bad injuries. He has an elite level skill set and whoever drafts him is going to get one hell of a player. I'm out of country and dont get the chance to see OHL often. My comments were designed to generate questions. Other scouts here are both concurring, and contradicting, that he has elements of speed and feist in his game. On the compete side : To be blunt, he does not have to have Theoren Fleury scrappiness in his game. Or make big hits like that one. But he has to compete like a dog to get to pucks. See Gallagher. Thats the fight in his game I want if we were to draft him. Strong enough to squeeze past guys on the boards to get to pucks. Strong enough hold off bigger players on his back. At least long enough to burst away. If Konecny has that strength and athleticism, it will show in his combine tests. As will questions some are making here about his speed? Explosive speed and in particular agility is a must in a small player. Shinkaruk and Schroeder both looked pretty bloody quick to me when they were younger. But are still are finding their way in the pro's. Maybe because they started their pro careers letting someone else win the puck for them? In Shinkaruk's case, I am suggesting, because he might need to get in the gym and add some of that core and upper body fitness. Its a risk is all I'm saying. Can he compete in the trenches as well as the open ice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McBackup Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I said we need to draft defensemen, I didn't say with our 1st rounder. But BPA isn't always the best choice. Ask Edmonton about that.... Edmonton is not a good example of all. If Edmonton had drafted Murray instead of Yak, Yak would probably be notching 40 goals and Murray would be in the minors. It's not that they didn't draft properly, it's that they ruin the development of who they draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Edmonton is not a good example of all. If Edmonton had drafted Murray instead of Yak, Yak would probably be notching 40 goals and Murray would be in the minors. It's not that they didn't draft properly, it's that they ruin the development of who they draft. I guess it's all the rushin' they do on prospects? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
on the cycle Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I kind of like Brandon Carlo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 He's rising fast because his season is impossible to ignore. I fear players like that. 1 rising season during draft year vs previous years of...???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I'm out of country and dont get the chance to see OHL often. My comments were designed to generate questions. Other scouts here are both concurring, and contradicting, that he has elements of speed and feist in his game. On the compete side : To be blunt, he does not have to have Theoren Fleury scrappiness in his game. Or make big hits like that one. But he has to compete like a dog to get to pucks. See Gallagher. Thats the fight in his game I want if we were to draft him. Strong enough to squeeze past guys on the boards to get to pucks. Strong enough hold off bigger players on his back. At least long enough to burst away. If Konecny has that strength and athleticism, it will show in his combine tests. As will questions some are making here about his speed? Explosive speed and in particular agility is a must in a small player. Shinkaruk and Schroeder both looked pretty bloody quick to me when they were younger. But are still are finding their way in the pro's. Maybe because they started their pro careers letting someone else win the puck for them? In Shinkaruk's case, I am suggesting, because he might need to get in the gym and add some of that core and upper body fitness. Its a risk is all I'm saying. Can he compete in the trenches as well as the open ice? My issue with trusting the combine is players like Nicushkin. He didn't even attempt it and when he did for his hype size and skill set he bombed out. Benett couldn't do a pull up, like at all and people tore him to shreds for it. And Jonny Hockey...well some here would do back room stuff with Treliving to get Jonny Hockey here. People banking so much on children, 17 and 18 year old kids sourcing their future on the ability to pedal a bike with a mask on, do a push up a bench press or even jump; to qualify their careers or draft positions aren't looking at the bigger picture. What pairing do we slot him in with. Good lines include 2 way or offensive center. 2 way or offensive winger and a pure offensive winger. We have some fair sized guys right now that we could slot in a Konecny ona line with a Kassian a Horvat or the like and be happy. One fo our fundamental issues right now is we lug the puck up the ice like no other. We are slow and get burned hard on transition games. See columbus and colorado losses for clarification. If he's there take him. IMO what we need is pure bonafide offensive D men, but we have those in the NCAA and in Subban and Bo-Sang isn't a slouch either regardless of his age. What we lack otherwise are pure offensive rw and lw players. I for one won't be to shocked or surprised at who we draft as I think for our position there's 5 names that will come in to the fore front. But I also don't think i will be shocked if we draft 24th and see benning trade in to the top 10 3 solid years with the 24th overall pick + 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I would throw players into tiers ... if you end up with a forward and defender in the same tier and the forward doesn't jump out take the defender. This is what I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dasein Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Dime a dozen? Like who? Please name some... 6'2"+ mobile defencemen 2015 - Hanifin, Werenski, Carlo, Larsson 2014 - Ekblad (1st), Fleury (7th), Sanheim (17th) 2013 - Jones (4th), Nurse (7th), Ristolainen (8th), Theodore (26th), Hagg (41st), Heatherington (50th), Bowey (53rd) 2012 - Lindholm (6th), Trouba (9th), Koekkoek (10th), Ceci (15th), Maatta (22nd) 2011 - Hamilton (9th), Beaulieu (17th), Klefbom (19th), Connor Murphy (20th) They are not as rare as they used to be back in the days - you can find a handful in recent drafts except 2014 Fleury was a huge riser before the draft, due to a combination of his offensive breaking out and the lack of big mobile defenders in his draft. He was not a safe top 4 projection, unlike those drafted in his range (Nurse, Ristolainen, Lindholm, Trouba, Hamilton), and he regressed this year, falling to 28 points from last year's 46, and going from 3rd in team scoring to 9th - what was supposed to separate Fleury from the everyday big mobile defenders was his offensive upside, and that seemed to have disappeared this season My assertion was that there are quite a few big defenders that can skate well these days, but that it is rare to find big, mobile defenders that also have high offensive skills. Right now, Fleury is not producing enough offensively to be one of those rare players, and his draft+1 year indicates that he's going to pan out as a bottom 4. Thus, I don't think there is a more apt qualification of Fleury than the "poor man's Shea Theodore" comment I made before - in which case, you will be able to find them later in the draft (low 1st or 2-4th round), in the UFA market or on the trading block Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 6'2"+ mobile defencemen 2015 - Hanifin, Werenski, Carlo, Larsson 2014 - Ekblad (1st), Fleury (7th) 2013 - Jones (4th), Nurse (7th), Ristolainen (8th), Theodore (26th), Hagg (41st), Heatherington (50th), Bowey (53rd) 2012 - Lindholm (6th), Trouba (9th), Koekkoek (10th), Ceci (15th), Maatta (22nd) 2011 - Hamilton (9th), Beaulieu (17th), Klefbom (19th), Connor Murphy (20th) They are not as rare as they used to be back in the days - you can find a handful in recent drafts except 2014 Fleury was a huge riser before the draft, due to a combination of his offensive breaking out and the lack of big mobile defenders in his draft. He was not a safe top 4 projection, unlike those drafted in his range (Nurse, Ristolainen, Lindholm, Trouba, Hamilton), and he regressed this year, falling to 28 points from last year's 46, and going from 3rd in team scoring to 9th - what was supposed to separate Fleury from the everyday big mobile defenders was his offensive upside, and that seemed to have disappeared this season My assertion was that there are quite a few big defenders that can skate well these days, but that it is rare to find big, mobile defenders that also have high offensive skills. Right now, Fleury is not producing enough offensively to be one of those rare players, and his draft+1 year indicates that he's going to pan out as a bottom 4. Thus, I don't think there is a more apt qualification of Fleury than the "poor man's Shea Theodore" comment I made before - in which case, you will be able to find them later in the draft (low 1st or 2-4th round), in the UFA market or on the trading block The issue is though with this list That you can easily find NUMEROUS trade threads from numerous posters who follow these guys and have offered small fortunes for ALL of them only to have other posters claim they're offers are pathetically small claiming these guys hold value far above their draft slot because of their "potential" Almost all of those D men are players we have all at one point in time or another asked about in trade proposals or other threads. Why can't we have a guy like that where other teams are making ridiculous proposals for them to have other posters tell them it's crazy because they're worth 5 times that asking price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demolition Dangler Posted March 28, 2015 Author Share Posted March 28, 2015 Brandon Carlo is huge, but he's not an offensive defenseman... We have too many shut down Ds or defensive defenseman. Found some more highlights of Konecny, and I wouldn't be too surprised if he gets picked much higher than projected... How long has it been since us Vancouver fans have seen such great dangles by a Canucks player? Kyle Wellwood... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Brandon Carlo is huge, but he's not an offensive defenseman... We have too many shut down Ds or defensive defenseman. Found some more highlights of Konecny, and I wouldn't be too surprised if he gets picked much higher than projected... How long has it been since us Vancouver fans have seen such great dangles by a Canucks player? Kyle Wellwood... Dude....no You can't use that name without "that" picture of him being posted somewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demolition Dangler Posted March 28, 2015 Author Share Posted March 28, 2015 6'2"+ mobile defencemen 2015 - Hanifin, Werenski, Carlo, Larsson 2014 - Ekblad (1st), Fleury (7th) 2013 - Jones (4th), Nurse (7th), Ristolainen (8th), Theodore (26th), Hagg (41st), Heatherington (50th), Bowey (53rd) 2012 - Lindholm (6th), Trouba (9th), Koekkoek (10th), Ceci (15th), Maatta (22nd) 2011 - Hamilton (9th), Beaulieu (17th), Klefbom (19th), Connor Murphy (20th) They are not as rare as they used to be back in the days - you can find a handful in recent drafts except 2014 Fleury was a huge riser before the draft, due to a combination of his offensive breaking out and the lack of big mobile defenders in his draft. He was not a safe top 4 projection, unlike those drafted in his range (Nurse, Ristolainen, Lindholm, Trouba, Hamilton), and he regressed this year, falling to 28 points from last year's 46, and going from 3rd in team scoring to 9th - what was supposed to separate Fleury from the everyday big mobile defenders was his offensive upside, and that seemed to have disappeared this season My assertion was that there are quite a few big defenders that can skate well these days, but that it is rare to find big, mobile defenders that also have high offensive skills. Right now, Fleury is not producing enough offensively to be one of those rare players, and his draft+1 year indicates that he's going to pan out as a bottom 4. Thus, I don't think there is a more apt qualification of Fleury than the "poor man's Shea Theodore" comment I made before - in which case, you will be able to find them later in the draft (low 1st or 2-4th round), in the UFA market or on the trading block I agree with you completely. There are a stockpile of "mobile" defenders in the second round and beyond for this year's draft. The best defenceman from the first round will be taken before our pick, unless we get a higher first round pick through trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dasein Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 The issue is though with this list That you can easily find NUMEROUS trade threads from numerous posters who follow these guys and have offered small fortunes for ALL of them only to have other posters claim they're offers are pathetically small claiming these guys hold value far above their draft slot because of their "potential" Almost all of those D men are players we have all at one point in time or another asked about in trade proposals or other threads. Why can't we have a guy like that where other teams are making ridiculous proposals for them to have other posters tell them it's crazy because they're worth 5 times that asking price? It is sad that we don't have a guy like that despite the increasing amount of them being available in the draft, but we can't do what Carolina did and reach Fleury's regression is really concerning/is a head scratcher when you look at the whole picture Red Deer went from 5th in their division in his draft year to 3rd and in the playoffs in his draft+1 year most of his teammates did not graduate from junior and improved Yet Fleury went from 46 points to 28, fell from 3rd in team scoring to 9th, and his +/- went from +15 on a non-playoff team to just +4 on a playoff team Imagine if Edler played solid last year and then shat the bed this year - that's what Fleury is essentially doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demolition Dangler Posted March 28, 2015 Author Share Posted March 28, 2015 Dude....no You can't use that name without "that" picture of him being posted somewhere LOL which picture. You should post it next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dasein Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 I agree with you completely. There are a stockpile of "mobile" defenders in the second round and beyond for this year's draft. The best defenceman from the first round will be taken before our pick, unless we get a higher first round pick through trade. I'm 100% fine with drafting a defenceman in the 1st round if that is the BPA I just don't like this notion of "we must draft a defenceman no matter what in the first round" because we should not reach to pick a defenceman if there is a forward who is clearly better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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