[discussion] Who actually believes a 're-tool' works when the key core players are 35 years old?

[BanTSN]

The Sedins will be 35 years old when September starts. They've both become playmakers now and are in need of a lot of assistance through scoring depth to see the team succeed as of late. Torts played them a lot 2 seasons ago and they broke. Clearly we cannot expect to win with them as key core players. And yet, some people seem to believe that it's not over and only a re-tooling is needed to see this team win.

I'm not saying trade the Sedins, but how are we to win a cup unless we replace them as key core players? How is a re-tool going to work if the best players on the team are just slowing down?

People say look at Anaheim, they re-tooled on the fly, now look. But Getzlaf and Perry aren't 35 years old. They are 30 years old. They, like Kesler, are in win now mode. The Sedins are in coasting to retirement mode.

Look, we had our time with the Sedins, and it was great. 2008-2012. Great. But it's over. The re-tool phase is over. After watching this team get buried by a young, underskilled Calgary team in the playoffs after a so-called successful regular season, I think it's pretty much said and done that the latest re-tool effort failed.

Again, i'm not saying trade the Sedins, but why is the approach 're-tool' when it's over? Why not admit a rebuild is needed when every coach and GM to come accross this team in years and years has said this team is old and needs to get younger? To me, that doesn't mean RE-TOOL! Holy crow!

[logic]

Because Benning wants to have a winning culture while at the sametime bringing in youth

[Gstank29]

I said this in the other thread. Horvat and Virtanen COULD be like Getzlaf and Perry in that they replace the Old Core. The "rebuild" would be in there mid/early twenties (approx 3-4 years from now) which was about the same age Perry and Getzlaf were at the time Anaheim didn't do well. It's all about how you draft with you're first picks and find "gems" in the later rounds

Also Anahiem didn't have 6 first rounders in 4 years to work with so there's also that.

[MikeGillis58]

This team can win if Horvat takes that extra step plus McCann, Shinkaruk, and Virtanen become NHL players. I see this season and next season as a transition period between the Sedin era and the Horvat era. We might not do much in the playoffs but within three years, the Canucks will rise again.

[-AJ-]

Detroit does, though they also have better young players.

That said, their best two players are 34 and 36, turning 35 and 37. Their best defenseman is 34.

[Wilbur]

It's the reality of all these 35 year olds with NTCs and years of horrible drafting. Yeah, we need to get younger. Every team is looking to get younger to a certain extent. In the cap era, young players that contribute on cheap ELCs are what everybody wants so nobody is going to trade a key pick or prospect for Chris Higgins, Kevin Bieksa, Alex Burrows, etc.

If everyone wanted a true sell off old assets rebuild (okay, except for the Sedin's), Benning and Linden were the wrong hire. Only a guy like Mike Keenan could convince everyone with a NTC to waive. Instead, we have a management team wanting to maintain the respectability and stability of this franchise. Maybe it'll take a little longer. But maybe not. Selling off all your assets only guarantees one thing...that you'll be bad for a while.

[smithers joe]

benning is working on rebuilding this team...i'll trust his expertise over cdc any day.

[-AJ-]

This team can win if Horvat takes that extra step plus McCann, Shinkaruk, and Virtanen become NHL players. I see this season and next season as a transition period between the Sedin era and the Horvat era. We might not do much in the playoffs but within three years, the Canucks will rise again.

This is the way I see it. Ideally, we will be making the playoffs every year (though not likely making anything happen) and continuously grow our young guys until the twins retire, at which time, they have to take the helm. Hopefully we'll surge ahead then, but it may take another year or two after that to get our feet again.

[RWMc1]

I'm not saying trade the Sedins, but how are we to win a cup unless we replace them as key core players? How is a re-tool going to work if the best players on the team are just slowing down?

re-tool effort failed.

Again, i'm not saying trade the Sedins, but why is the approach 're-tool' when it's over? Why not admit a rebuild is needed when every coach and GM to come accross this team in years and years has said this team is old and needs to get younger? To me, that doesn't mean RE-TOOL! Holy crow!

I hear a lot of this type of rhetoric. Please explain what you see as the difference between re-tooling and re-building. To me, rebuilding involves replacing older core player with younger ones. Keeping some older players and adding youth to augment is more re-tooling; which is what we are doing. If we are to keep the Sedins and still call it a rebuild, how exactly are we to do that?

[desiboynux4lifee*******]

Anaheim did a quick retool. After firing Mike Babcock, they made the playoffs by signing the legend scotty.

The only way to save a rebuild is to sign the right guys. At this moment, there are no free agents that can save this team. So, yep. That leaves option 2, trading away some of the veterans and getting some solid young guys. So yeah.

[Time Lord]

You're being sort of vague. What exactly do you want to happen?

[JeremyCuddles]

Re-tool doesn't mean what you think it means. We are trying to introduce, introduce is a key word here, young guys. Not throw every young guy we have in the top 6. Sedins are 35 yes, where were they in league scoring last year? Now go outside and get your head right.

[Honky Cat]

OP is saying on one hand ,he doesn't want to trade the Sedins,and with the other is saying they are washed up ....They can't be traded (they would just simply retire) ,and from a business perspective,it would most likely be a catastrophe (how do you explain that to season ticket holders).

Obviously,fans are not going put up with the same core players we've had,but the Sedins are still exceptional players..IMO..I thought they were good in this years playoffs,it was the supporting cast that let us down...They will most likely be downgraded to the second line in a few years....

[Wilbur]

You're being sort of vague. What exactly do you want to happen?

I think a lot of people would be over the moon if the following players were gone:

Miller

Bieksa

Edler

Hamhuis

Higgins

Burrows

Hansen

some here believe these can players can be magically placed with teams willing to part with key young assets.

In reality, IF these players waive their NTC's, there is going to be a tiny market of suitors (particularly around draft time) so Benning is not going to be able to get even a decent deal. If Benning is going to give these players away, you might as well wait until the young guys are clearly ready and maintain some respectability.

[TimberWolf]

benning is working on rebuilding this team...i'll trust his expertise over cdc any day.

While I wouldn't hand the reigns to this forum Benning hasn't earned the right to be above criticism either.

[TimberWolf]

Because Benning wants to have a winning culture while at the sametime bringing in youth

Unfortunately we don't have a winning culture to be excited about.

Winning culture is believe you can make noise in the playoffs or heading in that direction. That's excitement. Just making the playoffs and hope for the best defeats a winning culture.

Aslo there is no evidence a winning culture is any kind of neccesity. Most the bigger names in the NHL joined their teams when they were doormats and were key in turning those franchises around. Like Toews and Kane for example. They didn't need a winning culture because they were winners already like most high end prospects.

If you don't have that level of compete already hardwired as a rookie then you are playing the wrong sport.

[khay]

I think retooling a team is kind of like trying to lose weight and trying to put on muscle at the same time.

It's a bit easier to just lose weight, eating less and doing a lot of jogging/running or aerobics will do the job. And it's sort of easy to just put on some muscle by going to the gym, lift weights like crazy and drink protein drinks to help with muscle repair and growth. Of course, both of these are hard, just like tanking for high draft pick to build a contender is not necessarily much easier to pull off than retooling.

Retool is very hard to do and requires skillful management as well as discipline and patience to stay the course. But it's still the best option if it can be done because it satisfies everyone. The owners will be happy because they will continue to make money, the players will be happy because they are not losing every night and they believe that they have a chance to win, and the coach is happy because he has a good enough team to win so that he doesn't look like a completely mess of a coach, and the fans are (majority at least) happy because they still have something to cheer for.

Can JB and TL pull it off? Why not? The Anaheim team that won in 2007 depended on an old core of Selanne, Niedermayer, and Pronger. The youth of Getzlaf and Perry helped a lot in those years of course.

OK, we don't have Niedermayer and Pronger but who knows? Things can change quickly.

Anaheim did not have Niedermayer until 2006 season and Pronger 2007. So in two seasons, they went from being a so-so team to a contender.

A lot can happen in the next 3 years of the Sedins era. For example, growth spurts from young players like Horvat, Virtanen, Baertschi, Cassels, Clendening, Corrado can greatly increase the probability of success of this retool. We might sign a free agent defenceman who might improve our defence greatly. Kassian might become that scary power forward that we've been hoping for.

It was year 1 of the retool with the Sedins and I'd say JB did a pretty good job. Let's see what he does in year 2.

[Watermelons]

I agree with what you're saying OP and I think the Anaheim comparison is very interesting to look at. Both Perry and Getzlaf were drafted in 03 and four years later they won the cup on a stacked Anaheim team. What happened in between those years?

For one, the Ducks were patient with Perry and Getzlaf and let them slowly develop into the players they are today. Neither of them saw action until the 2005-2006 season, two full years after they were drafted. Obviously, if there wasn't a lockout that might have changed but that isn't the point. The Ducks waited till they were both ready before putting them into the NHL. Getzlaf had 39 points in 57 games and Perry had 25 points in 56 games. Not too shabby for a first season. They also got their first taste of playoff action.

The Ducks then went out and acquired Pronger and Niedermayer to boost their team for an expected long playoff run. By the 2007 playoffs the Ducks had a team led by Selanne, Pronger and Niedermayer and two young stars in Getzlaf and Perry. All five of the aforementioned players played a huge part in the run. In the playoffs, Getzlaf and Perry had 17 and 15 points respectively, while Selanne also had 15 points.

I think what Benning and Linden are aiming for is to try to make one more serious push for the cup in 3 years when the Sedins contracts are expiring. By then guys like Baertschi, Horvat, Virtanen, McCann, Shinkaruk and Cassels will have had a year or two under their belt and hopefully some playoff experience. If we are able to have two good drafts in 2015 and 2016 we could have a very strong team in 3 years. A stronger team also means Vancouver will be an attractive place for free agents who want to win a cup. I could definitely see us winning a cup in 3-4 years time.

I'll admit that it would be exciting to go the Chicago/Pittsburgh route and tank to get a couple top 3 picks. But for every Pittsburgh there is an Edmonton. And one player doesn't win a cup. Ask Crosby. Chicago isn't elite because of Kane and Toews alone, but also because they were able to draft very well overall. Without guys like Keith, Seabrook, Saad, etc. Chicago wouldn't be where they are today. Add in a couple of trade acquisitions in Sharp and Hossa and you have an elite team.

There's no sure-fire way to build a team but I'm confident in what Benning and Linden are doing. It's important to bring up guys in an environment where they are taught to win.

[Baer.]

Yup and after next season they will be on our second line on the brink on retirement and we still won't have a cup. Might as well get it over with now instead of stalling the inevitable.

[Provost]

Seems like a better strategy than tanking as badly as possible for a few years and "hoping" to get lucky the right year when you beat the odds to move up in the draft lottery AND manage to do it in a year that there is a franchise level talent available.

Oh, and then beat the odds a couple more times to get another couple players of that level.

Also, somehow convince enough veterans to come play on a team that is trying to come in last place so they can mentor some young guys on how to become professionals.

.... and do it all fast enough so that your first young talents are still on ELCs and you don't have to overpay them in both cap dollars and contract length in order to try to bribe them to stay on a team that they just spent a few years toiling in futility.

So, how often has the above worked out in the salary cap era? Keep in mind teams like Chicago and Pittsburgh did a lot of their lucking out before salary cap and not with the new draft lottery formula that helps prevent being successful through tanking.

If you don't think retooling is going to work, rather than tanking a better strategy is to hire a management team to be asses and put out RFA offer sheets to every team in cap trouble. Get a half dozen players to insert into the top half of your lineup. Then fire the entire management team and bring on a new set of guys who can say they had nothing to do with the offer sheets and actually be able to make trades with the other pissed off GMs.