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Brock Boeser | #6 | RW

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1 minute ago, Canucks Curse said:

not that rare- injuries accumulate and teams play you harder, your desire to dominate goes down, you just want to stay in the league and get paid, does not mean you don't go hard, just not balls to the wall, would be stupid to go so hard you cut your career short. 

pretty common actually

 

Alex ovechkin - 112 points in 3rd year, came close in 4th and 5th year, points wise, huge drop off after 5th season - probably injury related, still a great player but he was other worldly, like Sid before the injuries piled up.

 

Evander kane- best year? you guessed it- his 3rd year (57 pts) 2011-2012, came remotely close to that only once , 2018-2019

 

check out:

 

Chris higgins- best season was his 3rd by far

Eric Karlsson - his second best season was his 3rd and and her did not surpass it until his 7th season 

mcdcvid-  116 pts in third full season (missed one due to injury)

 

could find more if I look... it is an injury thing and Brock has accumulated injuries, Brock probably also not in it as much mentally this year due to past injuries and his dad's health, that would wear on anyone

 

 

In 2009-10, Ovie scored 109 points, but he missed 10 games. It could be argued that year (his 5th season) was the best year of his career, given that he was on pace for 57 goals and 124 points.

 

I would agree that Kane's best year so far has been his 3rd season, but both his last two years in SJ have been very close to the same level.

 

Higgins' best year was probably his third season, but his first full year in Vancouver was a close second, so I think "by far" isn't fair. Higgins missed 11 games in 2011-12 with the Canucks and was on pace for 21 goals and 50 points, a total that would have been just two points behind his third year in Montreal.

 

I don't really understand your point with Karlsson. You say his best year was his third season and then contradict yourself immediately by saying his 7th year was his best. I would agree, his seventh season was the best of his career thus far, though it's worth noting that he also won a Norris in his 6th season.

 

McDavid did miss some of his rookie season with injury, but I don't think 45 games is worth writing off as a non-season. Furthermore, he has continued to improve every year and even now, in his 5th season, his points-per-game is reaching a career best (1.52).

 

My point isn't that it never happens, but let's at least be honest with the statistics when we're trying to make a point.

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1 hour ago, LowerMainLander18 said:

Different story tho. 

They r in different stages of their respective careers. 

 

Boeser played 3 seasons in this league... Who peaks at his 3rd year in the league?

I can't name one. Help me out if u can.

Blight

Ververgeart

Hodgson

Faloon

Bure

Linden had 1 season over 70 pts after 23

Setoguchi

Samsonov

L Schenn

Phaneuf

 

A lot of guys actually peak at 25, so what does that mean for Boeser if he has 2 years then starts to decline?

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Jonathan Drouin or Mikail Sergachev

Ryan Johansen or Seth Jones

 

who would you rather?

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1 hour ago, lmm said:

Blight

Ververgeart

Hodgson

Faloon

Bure

Linden had 1 season over 70 pts after 23

Setoguchi

Samsonov

L Schenn

Phaneuf

 

A lot of guys actually peak at 25, so what does that mean for Boeser if he has 2 years then starts to decline?

Thanks for sharing those names.

Those are minuscule portion of player pool tho.

 

And I wouldnt say a lot of players peak at 25. 

Maybe 27~28. 

 

If he has 2 years to peak, then why would we trade him before his peak? 

Wouldnt we get much better return when he's at his peak?

 

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33 minutes ago, lmm said:

Jonathan Drouin or Mikail Sergachev

Ryan Johansen or Seth Jones

 

who would you rather?

The D but we gotta be in a position to trade for a D. Right now Pod/Hogs haven't proved that Boeser is expendable. We need them too. Also we're in a position to bring up a few young D Tryamkin/Rafferty/Brisebois  and can sign Tanev for free. Also have to consider that there is an expansion draft next year. We could make a deal with Seattle to take Tanev in order to keep both goalies. I'd wait till after the expansion to consider such a move too.

 

Also there are examples of it not working out like Hall for Larsson. Hall is still worth more than what EDM got. Hall is worth a Serg more than Drouin was and you could say Hall = Johansen yet they ended up with the worst D of the bunch in Larsson. Trading for a D isn't something to rush

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4 hours ago, lmm said:

 

 

maybe yes,maybe no

 

you are assuming that he recovers fully from every injury

Look at Sutter, pretty much an iron man and second line center caught behind two first liners in Pittsburg, until he got to Vancouver, got injured and coasted down hill

lots of players suffer from injuries, Sutter is a lot older than Boeser.  Boeser started his career here, he will definitely be here for awhile.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, LowerMainLander18 said:

Thanks for sharing those names.

Those are minuscule portion of player pool tho.

 

And I wouldnt say a lot of players peak at 25. 

Maybe 27~28. 

 

If he has 2 years to peak, then why would we trade him before his peak? 

Wouldnt we get much better return when he's at his peak?

 

um Gretzky peaked at 25, won his last cup at 27.

why would another GM givetop dollar for a guy who has peaked?

 

but since you don't like the names I am throwing out there, riddle me this, how many players can you name that have sustained 12 + game injuries in each of their first 3 seasons and have gone on to long productive careers?

I named 10, can you?

Edited by lmm

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5 hours ago, bree2 said:

lots of players suffer from injuries, Sutter is a lot older than Boeser.  Boeser started his career here, he will definitely be here for awhile.

is that 4 unrelated comments?

yes, a lot of players suffer injuries. does it affect their productivity? Skating? Shot?

yes, Sutter is older than Boeser. he is also older than Tanev, Roussell, Ferland and Motte and he has played at least 200 more games than all of them. Loui Ericksson was productive until he played as many games as Sutter has played.

yes, Boeser started his career here

yes, Boeser will be here a while, but what is a while? and what make it definitive? It is 12:34 AM, it will definitely be dark for a while

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6 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

The D but we gotta be in a position to trade for a D. Right now Pod/Hogs haven't proved that Boeser is expendable. We need them too. Also we're in a position to bring up a few young D Tryamkin/Rafferty/Brisebois  and can sign Tanev for free. Also have to consider that there is an expansion draft next year. We could make a deal with Seattle to take Tanev in order to keep both goalies. I'd wait till after the expansion to consider such a move too.

 

Also there are examples of it not working out like Hall for Larsson. Hall is still worth more than what EDM got. Hall is worth a Serg more than Drouin was and you could say Hall = Johansen yet they ended up with the worst D of the bunch in Larsson. Trading for a D isn't something to rush

I agree Larsson is the worst d of that bunch, but Hall has had one great year and only made the playoffs that one year.

Edmonton made the second round with Larsson and he wassecond in +/- behind McD that year

Edmonton is in a playoff spot now and NJ is rebuilding and firing coaches and managers

I would trade Larsson for Brock in a heatbeat

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2 hours ago, lmm said:

I agree Larsson is the worst d of that bunch, but Hall has had one great year and only made the playoffs that one year.

Edmonton made the second round with Larsson and he wassecond in +/- behind McD that year

Edmonton is in a playoff spot now and NJ is rebuilding and firing coaches and managers

I would trade Larsson for Brock in a heatbeat

My main point was on waiting till he is expendable. I am all for moving him at the right time and the right price. Waiting till after the expansion and when Hog/Pod prove that they make Boeser expendable. 

 

Also I wouldn't trade Larsson for Boeser. His last 2 seasons haven't been as good as his first 2 with EDM. Both his minutes and stats have gone down despite being on a better EDM team this year. Rather go after a Risto who'd probably excel not having to play 24+ minutes a night on a $&!# team like he has been required to the last 4-5 seasons. He has also had a better year this season when he's now playing just under 23 minutes(go figure) a game and with Dahlin taking some of the responsibility on another pairing. Waiting till after the expansion would allow us to see if he would agree to a signing after a trade.

 

People want Parayko but I doubt he's available and STL would want to dump Allen and Bozak to retain Pietrangelo. They also have to let Bouwmeester go which solidifies them keeping Parayko and losing Pietrangelo would guarantee that. They need both.

 

Risto's really the only guy available right now. 

 

Rather go hard on Pietrangelo if we get a couple compliance buyouts and if he wants to comes here. That's Eriksson and Myers easy. It's a pipe dream though.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, lmm said:

um Gretzky peaked at 25, won his last cup at 27.

why would another GM givetop dollar for a guy who has peaked?

 

but since you don't like the names I am throwing out there, riddle me this, how many players can you name that have sustained 12 + game injuries in each of their first 3 seasons and have gone on to long productive careers?

I named 10, can you?

I don't think you are getting my point.

The fact that there are 10 players that you could name that peaked before 23 does not mean rest of the hundreds of thousands of players in those eras of the league peaks at 23 on average.

 

Statistically, that's a very very very very very low chance. 

 

If you insist that you know he already peaked at 23, I don't buy that. 

If you insist he will peak in 2 yrs at 25, I don't buy that but then again, if you know he has 2 more yrs to peak, why trade him now for that much lower value... Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

I cant name any players on top of my head right now that had injuries in their first 2 years but still went on to have decent careers. 

 

 

Edited by LowerMainLander18

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, lmm said:

Blight

Ververgeart

Hodgson

Faloon

Bure

Linden had 1 season over 70 pts after 23

Setoguchi

Samsonov

L Schenn

Phaneuf

 

A lot of guys actually peak at 25, so what does that mean for Boeser if he has 2 years then starts to decline?

Also my question was which player peaks at their 3rd season in the NHL?

And your list doesn't really correlate to that question. 

 

I would cross off Linden as he had actually not so good numbers in this first 3 seasons.

Sergei Samsonov, again, peaked after his 4th season.

I don't think Luke Schenn ever really peaked as an NHLer. 

Devin Setoguchi had below average first 2 seasons and had a brief success in his 3rd season and resumed to being below average after that thru rest of his career. I think this is a peculiar case. 

Bure's number did go down due to injury on his 4th season. But he still had 51 goals in his 7th year and 58 and 59 in his 9th and 10th season .... so yeah.

By Hodgson, if you mean Cody Hodgson, I don't think he did have a peak in his NHL career. 

And who is Ververgeart?

 

 

 

Edited by LowerMainLander18

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4 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

My main point was on waiting till he is expendable. I am all for moving him at the right time and the right price. Waiting till after the expansion and when Hog/Pod prove that they make Boeser expendable. 

Still think Virtanen is odd man out there unfortunately (as I'd love to keep them all).

 

We don't have a Boeser replacement in our prospect pool. We might however have a Virtanen replacement in Podkolzin. 

 

And while I'm not entirely opposed to making that move now/soon (should the right deal come along), I tend to agree that's likely a move that happens after Podkolzin, Hoglander Lind etc start putting more upward pressure on the NHL lineup.

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interesting article here on how good Petey is, but whats also interesting is where Brock comes in on the lists too: https://thecanuckway.com/2020/04/27/canucks-elias-petterssons-performance-in-light-of-new-advanced-statistics-metric/

 

Guess which team has two players in the top 9 in p/60..... 

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3 hours ago, LowerMainLander18 said:

Also my question was which player peaks at their 3rd season in the NHL?

And your list doesn't really correlate to that question. 

 

I would cross off Linden as he had actually not so good numbers in this first 3 seasons.

Sergei Samsonov, again, peaked after his 4th season.

I don't think Luke Schenn ever really peaked as an NHLer. 

Devin Setoguchi had below average first 2 seasons and had a brief success in his 3rd season and resumed to being below average after that thru rest of his career. I think this is a peculiar case. 

Bure's number did go down due to injury on his 4th season. But he still had 51 goals in his 7th year and 58 and 59 in his 9th and 10th season .... so yeah.

By Hodgson, if you mean Cody Hodgson, I don't think he did have a peak in his NHL career. 

And who is Ververgeart?

 

 

 

Dennis Ververgaert, I spelled his name wrong, its ae. former Canuck first rounder.

 

I get the feeling that you think I am saying ALL players peak by 25, but Joel ward just retired and he did not play a full season until he was 27, he peaked at 33.

there are anomalies like Howe and Chara and there are guys who peak in junior like most Canuck draft picks (historically, J/K)including Shinkaruk.

 

But I feel what you are saying is that all players have a symetrical growth curve that peaks at 27-28 which is equally wrong.

Back to Brock, he has sustained wrist and back injuries that appear from where I am sitting, (I am not a doctor or close to the team) to have limited his ability

maybe he has healed with all this time off, we can hope that is the case, but I would not bet on it.

 

Personally I think I differ from many fans because I do not fall in love with all the players and expect them all to grow to greatness. 

I think Petey and Quinn will, I hope Bo and Virtanen will and I feel nothing for the likes of Pods and Hogs until they come over and perform in the NHL. But that is just me.

 

2 things about Brock

I remember the game when Brock got hurt and immediately thought that his career might be over, so good for him to make a career after that injury.

But I also remember an interview with Doug McLean about interviewing Phil Kessel at the combine, Doug said," I just didn't get the feeling that I NEEDED him"

I have always had that feeling for Brock. Kessel puts up numbers when he is surrounded by the likes of Sid and Geno, but didn't take Toronto or Arizona where they wanted to go. Bure made the 1st round of the playoffs once after he left Vancouver. He was +35 at 22 and had 31 playoff points and knocked out Shane Churla at 23. He never get near those feats again.

 

When I look at players I want on this team, I want players like Justin Williams or Claude Lemeiux, not Phil Kessel. I understand the Kessel comparison is my own personal bias.

I think JT Miller is the closest thing to Justin Williams on our current roster, but I also see that drive in Pettersson and hope that continues in him past his 23rd and 25th birthdays.

 

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, lmm said:

Dennis Ververgaert, I spelled his name wrong, its ae. former Canuck first rounder.

 

I get the feeling that you think I am saying ALL players peak by 25, but Joel ward just retired and he did not play a full season until he was 27, he peaked at 33.

there are anomalies like Howe and Chara and there are guys who peak in junior like most Canuck draft picks (historically, J/K)including Shinkaruk.

 

But I feel what you are saying is that all players have a symetrical growth curve that peaks at 27-28 which is equally wrong.

Back to Brock, he has sustained wrist and back injuries that appear from where I am sitting, (I am not a doctor or close to the team) to have limited his ability

maybe he has healed with all this time off, we can hope that is the case, but I would not bet on it.

 

Personally I think I differ from many fans because I do not fall in love with all the players and expect them all to grow to greatness. 

I think Petey and Quinn will, I hope Bo and Virtanen will and I feel nothing for the likes of Pods and Hogs until they come over and perform in the NHL. But that is just me.

 

2 things about Brock

I remember the game when Brock got hurt and immediately thought that his career might be over, so good for him to make a career after that injury.

But I also remember an interview with Doug McLean about interviewing Phil Kessel at the combine, Doug said," I just didn't get the feeling that I NEEDED him"

I have always had that feeling for Brock. Kessel puts up numbers when he is surrounded by the likes of Sid and Geno, but didn't take Toronto or Arizona where they wanted to go. Bure made the 1st round of the playoffs once after he left Vancouver. He was +35 at 22 and had 31 playoff points and knocked out Shane Churla at 23. He never get near those feats again.

 

When I look at players I want on this team, I want players like Justin Williams or Claude Lemeiux, not Phil Kessel. I understand the Kessel comparison is my own personal bias.

I think JT Miller is the closest thing to Justin Williams on our current roster, but I also see that drive in Pettersson and hope that continues in him past his 23rd and 25th birthdays.

 

No, I do appreciate your ideas. And I don't twist things.

I DO think all players are different. 

And that Boeser's best season has not happened. Not even close.

 

If he had 3 healthy, full seasons and put up those numbers, I wouldnt feel as bad about trading him right now.

But he did not. And he had 2 awful summer trainings due to injuries. And summer training at his age is so important in this league nowadays.

That is why I say trading him is a big mistake and that he is, I think, far from his peak.

 

You obviously took time to do some research to respond and I appreciate that. 

 

I like the Justin Williams analogy. 

But Boeser is not a similar player to Phil Kessel.

Only similar thing is that they are both snipers with heavy wrist shot.

 

Boeser is a character player that's why I think he's not close to reaching his best days yet. 

He will get better as our stock piled prospects enter the league as key pieces. 

 

It's a rare find to have a Right handed sniper on the team. I think we should be extremely careful how to deal with him. 

Edited by LowerMainLander18
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

My main point was on waiting till he is expendable. I am all for moving him at the right time and the right price. Waiting till after the expansion and when Hog/Pod prove that they make Boeser expendable. 

 

Also I wouldn't trade Larsson for Boeser. His last 2 seasons haven't been as good as his first 2 with EDM. Both his minutes and stats have gone down despite being on a better EDM team this year. Rather go after a Risto who'd probably excel not having to play 24+ minutes a night on a $&!# team like he has been required to the last 4-5 seasons. He has also had a better year this season when he's now playing just under 23 minutes(go figure) a game and with Dahlin taking some of the responsibility on another pairing. Waiting till after the expansion would allow us to see if he would agree to a signing after a trade.

 

People want Parayko but I doubt he's available and STL would want to dump Allen and Bozak to retain Pietrangelo. They also have to let Bouwmeester go which solidifies them keeping Parayko and losing Pietrangelo would guarantee that. They need both.

 

Risto's really the only guy available right now. 

 

Rather go hard on Pietrangelo if we get a couple compliance buyouts and if he wants to comes here. That's Eriksson and Myers easy. It's a pipe dream though.

I imagine by now you have realized that I don't value Brock as highly as some on this board.

Its not that I don't like him, I think he is a nice guy, and he is going through a troublesome time, but many on here see him as the steal of the 2015 draft, while I see him as a mid-first  playing at about his draft position.

I'd take that Risto deal, but we would probably have to add, maybe Loui Ericksson or Raymond, Ballard and a 2nd.

I remember someone suggesting  Parayko for Hutton just over a year ago, too bad that deal didn't go, probably would have had to add Loui and Raymond for that one.

 

But I digress, I look at Brock fetching a D-man of similar age and draft position,so I am looking at Zakub Zboril or Jacob Larsson, Gabe Carlsson or maybe on a good day Tom Chabot. Some of those deals we might get the add. Now in honesty I have not seen any except Chabot play and don't know if they have dropped significantly, but that is the return I think is realistic. Maybe Chychrun would be a home run.

With Quinn on the team, and Rathbone possibly our next prospect, I am only looking at large and hopefully physical defensemen.

Edited by lmm

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Team Canada is still the better line up, but Team USA has closed the gaps by a lot:

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The main question with Boeser is if he can recover from his injuries and get his wrist shot back from his rookie season. 

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On 4/26/2020 at 5:34 PM, lmm said:

Jonathan Drouin or Mikail Sergachev

Ryan Johansen or Seth Jones

 

who would you rather?

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