DonLever Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 from Business Insider: It looks like Greece is going to default. On Saturday, Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis left a meeting of eurozone finance ministers after failing to get an agreement to extend the current bailout deal until after a referendum next week. Late Friday, Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras made a surprise announcement of a referendum to be held in Greece next Sunday, July 5, to vote on the reforms proposed to Greece by its creditors as part of a possible bailout extension. The most imminent money owed by Greece to creditors is €1.6 billion owed to the International Monetary Fund on Tuesday, a payment it looks like Greece will now miss. The question now, it appears, is what happens next and whether this missed payment sets the table for a "Grexit," which would see Greece leave the EU. According to Reuters, Varoufakis told journalists as he left the meeting that, "It's a sad day for Europe." Eurogroup ministers said they would meet without Greece later on Saturday evening to discuss how to handle the fallout from an expected Greek debt default on Tuesday, according to Reuters. A report from Reuters said, "With most Greek banks closed for the weekend, there was no sign of panic on the streets of Athens. Government officials said there was no plan to impose capital controls that would limit withdrawals." Ahead of Tsipras' announcement, a poll of Greek citizens indicated that 57% of the 1,000 people polled showed they want Greece to reach a deal; 29% of respondents indicated they preferred a break with creditors Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/greece-looks-set-to-default-on-tuesday-june-30-2015-6#ixzz3eNucGeXp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Wonder if the whole house of cards falls down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejazz97 Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Wonder if the whole house of cards falls down? Wouldn't doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummer4now Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Wonder if the whole house of cards falls down? They're pandering to Russia now lol.. Greece should have never joined the EU in the first place. Everything went down for them after the Athen Olympic games.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Ambien Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Ever since joining the Eurozone, Greece has only gotten worse and worse with it's spending. Their pension system is easily a large culprit to it. Teachers can retire after 20 years, along with a number of other jobs, so you have people in their 40s and 50s who are more than capable workers collecting one or more pensions. The percentage of their wage in pension is much higher than anywhere else in Europe too. Greece has agreed to a number of changes as per their agreement for lenders to keep lending them money, but has either not implemented any of them, or has reversed them in short order. All in all, that's why no one in the world was left but the IMF and Eurozone to bail out Greece, and Greece still refuses to meet fiscally responsible conditions, railing against austerity and their country has hardly even touched austerity. They should have never been bailed out in the first place. And even if they were to agree to last second terms in this situation, it would only delay the inevitable. Greeks really do believe they can afford all this debt financed wild spending, which is why they wish to just indefinitely restructure debt rather than pay it down. If they had simply went by the terms of the first bailout, they'd be done and out of debt by now. Instead, they're in worse shape than the first bailout, and they still want to borrow money while protesting lenders requiring them to be responsible and pay it back without needing another loan, LOL. It's just a fracked country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuckin_futz Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 This is what happens when you elect morons to lead you. Where do expect to get lead? PM Tsipras called the referendum on Twitter while his own negotiating team was still negotiating and apparently making progress with creditors. His tweet surprised his own team. What Tsipras and his team couldn't figure out/agree on in 5 months. Is now left to Grandpa and Grandma Papajopalopolous to decide in 5 days. Banks are now shuttered until at least the referendum and the Athens stock exchange will not open on Monday. Capital controls are next when the banks do open. I have seen withdrawal limits of 65 Euros being bandied about. That's about $90 Canadian. lol Like Ambien said above, they should have got their crap together after the first bailout. Ireland was in the same crap and needed IMF bailouts. They implemented the austerity measures and are now on solid footing. S&P even raised their credit rating to A+ a few weeks back. Meanwhile the pity party continues in Greece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuxfanabroad Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Sign O' the times? End-game for capitalism? Looks mighty serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Ambien Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Sign O' the times? End-game for capitalism? Looks mighty serious. Greece.. capitalism.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonLever Posted June 28, 2015 Author Share Posted June 28, 2015 It doesn't matter if the Greece leave or stay in the EU since Greece has to sort out its own problems. By going it alone, they must still have a austerity program, except they can't blame it on the international community. Its going to be painful until they sort out their own mess. A huge part of the problem is politicians making promises they can't keep just to obtain power. But in the end, it is the voters who bear responsibility by voting them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianLoonie Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Sign O' the times? End-game for capitalism? Looks mighty serious. Do you ever read anything regarding economics and/or finance and/or history? Since revolting against Ottoman Turkish rule in 1821, governments representing the nation-state of Greece has defaulted on its debt obligations in 1826, 1843, 1860, 1894 and 1932...soon to include 2015. So is this the fault of 'capitalism' or an ingrained failure of the institution of government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummer4now Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Do you ever read anything regarding economics and/or finance and/or history? Since revolting against Ottoman Turkish rule in 1821, governments representing the nation-state of Greece has defaulted on its debt obligations in 1826, 1843, 1860, 1894 and 1932...soon to include 2015. So is this the fault of 'capitalism' or an ingrained failure of the institution of government? Those lazy Greeks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuxfanabroad Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 CL^ No, not well-versed in economics, & my bank acct proves it, dammit! I'd always thought economists were irrelevant, pompous stiffs-prob how a lot of poor young, working class felt. Then I'd read of the importance of what one man could do to shift a system..namely, Muhammed Yunus, the Bangladeshi(mico credit) almost 20 yrs back. Was both excited & interested about these details. More recently interested in theories of Richard Wolff-so you could say my leanings are certainly towards the left. Prefer healthy skepticism, & I think Greece's situation is just a symptom of much wider problems, in store. Lastly I'll reference people like Picketty & especially Taleb, as ones who I regard as importantly prescient, regarding the wider question you finished with. Won't pretend to comprehend their theories, inside-out..but believe they're all serving up warnings the masses best heed. In short, we're entering an age of SEVERE unpredictability, & we'd best expect the worst. Realms political, social, ENVIRONMENTAL, & consequently financial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Ambien Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Do you ever read anything regarding economics and/or finance and/or history? Since revolting against Ottoman Turkish rule in 1821, governments representing the nation-state of Greece has defaulted on its debt obligations in 1826, 1843, 1860, 1894 and 1932...soon to include 2015. So is this the fault of 'capitalism' or an ingrained failure of the institution of government?That and Greeks being hard headed.. refusing to learn, suffering from the same mistakes over and over, and as Don eluded to, refusing to hold themselves as voters responsible. The latter sentiment from prior sentence being a familiar theme here in North America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Ambien Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 What's hilarious too is Tsipras calling for the referendum on the 5th but because their attempts to secure more money for 5 days failed, they are facing a likely default and exit well before the referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuckin_futz Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 What's hilarious too is Tsipras calling for the referendum on the 5th but because their attempts to secure more money for 5 days failed, they are facing a likely default and exit well before the referendum. It's the equivalent of starting marriage counseling 5 days after your divorce is finalized. Mind you the June 30th payments are due to the IMF. It's actually 3 or 4 payments that were due at various dates over June. Greece opted to bundle all the payments into one due on the 30th. For a little background, the last country to pull this stunt was perennial African basket case Zambia 35 years ago. They aren't really in default until they miss payments due the ECB of which there are many due in July and Aug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DYU3ster Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Well Greece represent less than 2% GDP in the EU. Better sure Greece needs the EU, more than EU needs Greece. Its a game of chicken, who is willing to budge first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Ambien Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 It's the equivalent of starting marriage counseling 5 days after your divorce is finalized. Mind you the June 30th payments are due to the IMF. It's actually 3 or 4 payments that were due at various dates over June. Greece opted to bundle all the payments into one due on the 30th. For a little background, the last country to pull this stunt was perennial African basket case Zambia 35 years ago. They aren't really in default until they miss payments due the ECB of which there are many due in July and Aug. Thanks for that bit of info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianLoonie Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 CL^ No, not well-versed in economics, & my bank acct proves it, dammit! I'd always thought economists were irrelevant, pompous stiffs-prob how a lot of poor young, working class felt. More recently interested in theories of Richard Wolff-so you could say my leanings are certainly towards the left. Prefer healthy skepticism, & I think Greece's situation is just a symptom of much wider problems, in store. You are correct about that thought...especially those that think that they know what's best for you and everyone else as a collective, instead of as individuals. Including a certain Marxist economist living in...Manhattan of all places!...now if that doesn't raise a red flag... And yes, Greece-like situations wil repeat itself with other over-indebted, Keyensian-following Western economies over the next few years as math and economics will trump laws and politics. Lastly I'll reference people like Picketty & especially Taleb, as ones who I regard as importantly prescient, regarding the wider question you finished with. Won't pretend to comprehend their theories, inside-out..but believe they're all serving up warnings the masses best heed. You cannot really use Picketty and Taleb to support a point together...one believes in more government powers to enact greater centralization of economic control while the other writes overly-complex systems like the ones require to centrally control an economy are fragile and thus prone to failure from unforeseen circumstances In short, we're entering an age of SEVERE unpredictability, & we'd best expect the worst. Realms political, social, ENVIRONMENTAL, & consequently financial. Following Taleb, if you are anti-fragile, you can be a beneficiary from volatility as fragile system suffer break-downs, restructuring, or collapse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAce Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 im surprised there isnt more panic in the streets from the people...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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