Horvat Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Hey guys I'm starting this thread up to shed some light on THE man, Bernie sanders. Who is a democratic (socialist) running for the democratic party in the united states presidential race, apposing Hilary Clinton. Despite being shunned from the media and only being brought on the air in attempts to slander Ms Clinton, Sanders has been surging in the poles attracting mass crowds. (almost 10,000 people in Madison Wisconsin) here are some of Bernie Sanders main talking points and issues. Creating decent paying jobs for the middle class: - The real unemployment rate is much higher than the “official” figure typically reported in the newspapers. When you include workers who have given up looking for jobs, or those who are working part time when they want to work full time, the real number is much higher than official figures would suggest. - It’s even worse for young people. A recent study found that over 50 percent of young African-Americans and more than one-third of white and Hispanic youth are looking for full-time work. - We are in the midst of an ongoing unemployment crisis, and we must take bold action to address it." Key actions: - Introduced legislation which would invest $1 trillion over 5 years to modernize our country’s physical infrastructure, creating and maintaining at least 13 million good-paying jobs while making our country more productive, efficient and safe. - Opposed NAFTA, CAFTA, permanent normal trade relations (PNTR) with China, the TPP, and other free-trade agreements. These deals kill American jobs by shifting work overseas to nations which fail to provide worker protections and pay extremely low wages. - Introduced the Employ Young Americans Now Act with Rep. John Conyers. It would provide $5.5 billion in immediate funding to employ one million young Americans between the ages of 16 and 24, and would provide job training to hundreds of thousands of others. https://berniesanders.com/issues/creating-decent-paying-jobs/ Income and Wealth inequality: - "The good news is that the economy today is much better than when President George W. Bush left office. The bad news is that despite improvements the 40-year decline of the American middle class continues. Real unemployment is much too high, tens of millions of Americans still lack health insurance, and more of our friends and neighbors are living in poverty than at almost any time in the modern history of our country." - "Meanwhile, as the rich become much richer, the level of income and wealth inequality has reached obscene and astronomical levels. In the United States, we have one of the most unequal wealth and income distributions of any major country on earth. Our inequality is worse now than at any other time in American history since the 1920s. Today, the top one-tenth of 1 percent of our nation owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent combined. One family, the Walton family of Walmart, owns more wealth than the bottom 42 percent combined. In terms of income, nearly all of the new growth since the recession has gone to the top 1 percent." - "At a time when millions of American workers have seen declines in their incomes and are working longer hours for lower wages, the wealth of the billionaire class is soaring in a way that few can imagine. If you can believe it, between 2013 and 2015, the 14 wealthiest individuals in the country saw their net worth increase by over $157 billion dollars. We live in one of the wealthiest countries on earth, yet children go hungry, veterans sleep out on the streets and senior citizens cannot afford their prescription drugs. This is what a rigged economic system looks like." https://berniesanders.com/issues/income-and-wealth-inequality/ Getting big money out of politics: - Freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to buy the United States government. Oil companies, pharmaceutical manufacturers, Wall Street bankers and other powerful special interests have poured money into our political system for years. In 2010, a bad situation turned worse. In a 5-4 decision in the Citizens United case, the Supreme Court opened the floodgates for corporations and the wealthy to spend unlimited and undisclosed money to buy our elected officials. The Supreme Court essentially declared that corporations have the same rights as natural-born human beings. - Our democracy is under fierce attack. Billionaire families are now able to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to buy the candidates of their choice. These people own most of the economy. Now they want to own our government as well. The Koch brothers, the second wealthiest family in America, plan to spend some $900 million in the coming 2016 election — more money than either of our major parties spent in the last election. That is not democracy. That is oligarchy. To restore our one person-one vote democracy, Congress must pass a constitutional amendment to overturn Citizens United and move toward public funding of elections. Key Actions: - Introduced the Democracy Is for People constitutional amendment to overturn the Supreme Court’s Citizens United decision. - Voted for the DISCLOSE Act to shine a light on the exorbitant amounts of dark money in our politics. - Promised that any Sanders Administration Supreme Court nominee will commit to overturning the disastrous Citizens United decision. https://berniesanders.com/issues/money-in-politics/ Climate change & Enviroment: - The United States must lead the world in tackling climate change to make certain that this planet is habitable for our children and grandchildren. We must transform our energy system away from polluting fossil fuels and towards energy efficiency and sustainability. Millions of homes and buildings need to be weatherized and we need to greatly accelerate technological progress in wind and solar power generation. - Unless we take bold action to address climate change, our children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren are going to look back on this period in history and ask a very simple question: Where were they? Why didn’t the United States of America, the most powerful nation on earth, lead the international community in cutting greenhouse gas emissions and preventing the devastating damage that the scientific community was sure would come? Key actions: - Introduced the gold standard for climate change legislation with Sen. Barbara Boxer to tax carbon and methane emissions. - Led the opposition to the Keystone XL pipeline. - Secured $3.2 billion in the economic stimulus package to fund grants to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in a program that has funded upgrades for more than 86,000 buildings and installed more than 9,500 solar energy systems. https://berniesanders.com/issues/climate-change/ A living wage: - Millions of Americans are working for totally inadequate wages. We must ensure that no full-time worker lives in poverty. The current federal minimum wage is starvation pay and must become a living wage. We must increase it to $15 an hour over the next several years. - We must also establish equal pay for women. It’s unconscionable that women earn less than men for performing the same work. - Millions of American employees have been working 50 or 60 hours a week while receiving no overtime pay. That is why Bernie has been encouraging the Obama Administration to ensure that more workers receive overtime pay protection. The Administration’s new rule extending that protection to everyone making less than $947 a week is a step in the right direction. It is a win for our economy and for our workers. - Lastly, we must support and strengthen the labor movement to ensure that workers have a say in their own economic futures. That’s why Bernie has been a strong supporter of the Employee Free Choice Act, which would make it easier for workers to organize and bargain collectively. Key Actions: - Proposed a national $15 per hour minimum wage.Introduced a budget amendment to raise the minimum wage. - Introduced the “Workplace Democracy Act” to strengthen the role of unions and the voices of working people on the job. - As mayor of Burlington, was a strong collaborator with unions. https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-living-wage/ Don't worry I'll be keeping you posted through the race as long as he has a shot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horvat Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 IS HE THE NEXT FDR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horvat Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 This guy attracts 10'000 people in the middle of Wisconsin and look how CNN treats him... This is more like it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Ambien Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 "The good news is that the economy today is much better than when President George W. Bush left office." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonMexico Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Is he Col. Sanders brother? Does he know the 11 herbs and spices secret recipe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horvat Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 "The good news is that the economy today is much better than when President George W. Bush left office." the econemy crashed in 07-08? when obama was elected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Ambien Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Is he Col. Sanders brother? Does he know the 11 herbs and spices secret recipe? Apparently there was a Col. Sanders in Calgary. Or so there's a nearby school named after Colonel Sanders. http://schools.cbe.ab.ca/b215/ the econemy crashed in 07-08? when obama was elected? Well, given welfare recipients and children living under poverty are both quite a bit higher than when the recession took place, it's hard to tell people things are better. But hey, more of them have Walmart jobs, right? "Success!" --Bernie Sanders Obviously his job if he wants to get elected is make Obama's Presidency look better than it really is. You can polish a turd but in the end it's still a piece of crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horvat Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 Apparently there was a Col. Sanders in Calgary. Or so there's a nearby school named after Colonel Sanders. http://schools.cbe.ab.ca/b215/ Well, given welfare recipients and children living under poverty are both quite a bit higher than when the recession took place, it's hard to tell people things are better. But hey, more of them have Walmart jobs, right? "Success!" --Bernie Sanders Obviously his job if he wants to get elected is make Obama's Presidency look better than it really is. You can polish a turd but in the end it's still a piece of crap. no he is different than Obama he hes a long consistent career and political views than span all the way to the 60's he wont throw everything out the window like Obama did after his election... but i agree all the statistics in US are very skewed an inaccurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Ambien Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 no he is different than Obama he hes a long consistent career and political views than span all the way to the 60's he wont throw everything out the window like Obama did after his election... but i agree all the statistics in US are very skewed an inaccurate. That part is true. He, like Ron Paul did, threatens the party establishment. That's why the media is doing their best to ignore him. In the end, people are stupid, and this will work. Obviously people don't learn from campaigns vs. reality. Bush: "I'm a fiscal and compassionate conservative." Obama: "Change, open government, insurance goes down, you can keep your insurance, I'll stop Bush's spying programs, etc." It's like they have the memory of a fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummer4now Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 He has no chance... The Americans will vote Hilary Clinton because of PC or simply because the other candidates suck.. Trump has a decent chance of becoming Ronald Reagan 2.0 if he keeps it up and surges ahead of Jeb who lets be frank won't win.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Ambien Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 He has no chance... The Americans will vote Hilary Clinton because of PC or simply because the other candidates suck.. Trump has a decent chance of becoming Ronald Reagan 2.0 if he keeps it up and surges ahead of Jeb who lets be frank won't win.. Trumps campaign is awesome. I love how he's just telling the GOP establishment "frack you". For the most part they've been quiet and bewildered, probably because the more Trump talks, the more he's bound to put his foot in his mouth and say something they can be "outraged" about. Needless to say, I'm considering voting for Trump. Gary Johnson is also running again IIRC. We'll see. Still a long time to go, and more candidates can jump in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horvat Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 Trumps campaign is awesome. I love how he's just telling the GOP establishment "frack you". For the most part they've been quiet and bewildered, probably because the more Trump talks, the more he's bound to put his foot in his mouth and say something they can be "outraged" about. Needless to say, I'm considering voting for Trump. Gary Johnson is also running again IIRC. We'll see. Still a long time to go, and more candidates can jump in. meh, im more into paying 20-30k a year for free everything, of course anybody who earns alot of money will vote trump, and the shrinking middle class and the lower class (the people who are being oppressed) will vote for the left with more money comes more greed, especially in the US its their culture, and with money comes power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 meh, im more into paying 20-30k a year for free everything, of course anybody who earns alot of money will vote trump, and the shrinking middle class and the lower class (the people who are being oppressed) will vote for the left "Anybody" is a bit of a generalization, but I am sure you know that. There are plenty of rich liberals out there (Hollywood, NYC, musicians, etc.) who will continue to vote for Dems, regardless of whatever tax law changes Republican candidates claim will help their bottom line. You might be surprised what happens in the next election. With the labor participation rate consistently falling during Obama's tenure, coupled with normal growth in population, an increasingly higher number of people are out of work over the last 7 years. Those millions of people might be fed up with Democrat policy and choosing someone further to the left of Obama could easily not be their cup of tea. Of course, many things don't surprise me with elections down here, so it's not like I would put significant money on my opinion either. Sanders may have some appealing ideas to some, but a self-proclaimed socialist pushing a socialist agenda, while more honest than many politicians, will likely scare away the bulk of independent voters in a country with a strong foundation of freedom. The problem with "free everything" is what do you do when any of the "everything" is of lower quality than what you want/expect? It's not like you can vote with your feet and choose another provider if it's all the same in the country. If government is running all levels of education, health care, etc., what options do lower-to-moderate income people have? You get what you pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockout Casualty Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 "Anybody" is a bit of a generalization, but I am sure you know that. There are plenty of rich liberals out there (Hollywood, NYC, musicians, etc.) who will continue to vote for Dems, regardless of whatever tax law changes Republican candidates claim will help their bottom line. You might be surprised what happens in the next election. With the labor participation rate consistently falling during Obama's tenure, coupled with normal growth in population, an increasingly higher number of people are out of work over the last 7 years. Those millions of people might be fed up with Democrat policy and choosing someone further to the left of Obama could easily not be their cup of tea. Of course, many things don't surprise me with elections down here, so it's not like I would put significant money on my opinion either. Sanders may have some appealing ideas to some, but a self-proclaimed socialist pushing a socialist agenda, while more honest than many politicians, will likely scare away the bulk of independent voters in a country with a strong foundation of freedom. The problem with "free everything" is what do you do when any of the "everything" is of lower quality than what you want/expect? It's not like you can vote with your feet and choose another provider if it's all the same in the country. If government is running all levels of education, health care, etc., what options do lower-to-moderate income people have? You get what you pay for. I wouldn`t say Obama is very left wing, so outside of right wingers proclaiming it so, it`s hardly left wing economic policies that bear responsibility. If anything, US should try leaning a little left (or a lot, if you ask me). Not only does your post imply that socialism is tantamount to a police state, but history clearly shows that the freedoms that you`re talking about have been chipped away not by socialists with crazy hair, but by the establishment duo. At this rate, you can either believe the socialist Sanders will take your freedoms away, or you can definitely continue to lose them. I think the choice is clear. I don`t think anybody is talking about the government controlling means of production. Our socialist medical system doesn`t prevent you from finding a new doctor, does it? Service delivery is private.Bernie isn't actually a Bolshevik, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horvat Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 "Anybody" is a bit of a generalization, but I am sure you know that. There are plenty of rich liberals out there (Hollywood, NYC, musicians, etc.) who will continue to vote for Dems, regardless of whatever tax law changes Republican candidates claim will help their bottom line. You might be surprised what happens in the next election. With the labor participation rate consistently falling during Obama's tenure, coupled with normal growth in population, an increasingly higher number of people are out of work over the last 7 years. Those millions of people might be fed up with Democrat policy and choosing someone further to the left of Obama could easily not be their cup of tea. Of course, many things don't surprise me with elections down here, so it's not like I would put significant money on my opinion either. Sanders may have some appealing ideas to some, but a self-proclaimed socialist pushing a socialist agenda, while more honest than many politicians, will likely scare away the bulk of independent voters in a country with a strong foundation of freedom. The problem with "free everything" is what do you do when any of the "everything" is of lower quality than what you want/expect? It's not like you can vote with your feet and choose another provider if it's all the same in the country. If government is running all levels of education, health care, etc., what options do lower-to-moderate income people have? You get what you pay for. yeah i was purposefully using loose terms, i totally agree with what your saying except for the emboldened text. i think most self proclaimed leftist will vote for Sanders, Hilary is too close to the middle and i don't believe the voters will believe her when she begins to pretend to be Bernie sanders cause that's the only way she can beat him imho the american people are fed up politics and big money which Clinton heavily represents shes fake and Bernie is real, i don't think socialism scares people away at all, when you think of places like Sweden Finland Germany and Norway you think of the best countries on earth who are obviously getting things right. i highly doubt people wouldn't vote for Bernie because of "freedom based point of view" i think that's the rhetoric the media is spitting out for sure though so i can see how you could think that, i highly recommend watching some RT america videos on Bernie anyways i totally agree with your other points..... I really think Bernie will have an Obama "coming from behind" type victory, if there is a left uprising and the progressive people the people who are being oppressed by the rich corporations will come out to vote for Bernie and will win especially if there is only a 60% voter turnout (or something like that) like last election..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horvat Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 I wouldn`t say Obama is very left wing, so outside of right wingers proclaiming it so, it`s hardly left wing economic policies that bear responsibility. If anything, US should try leaning a little left (or a lot, if you ask me). Not only does your post imply that socialism is tantamount to a police state, but history clearly shows that the freedoms that you`re talking about have been chipped away not by socialists with crazy hair, but by the establishment duo. At this rate, you can either believe the socialist Sanders will take your freedoms away, or you can definitely continue to lose them. I think the choice is clear. I don`t think anybody is talking about the government controlling means of production. Our socialist medical system doesn`t prevent you from finding a new doctor, does it? Service delivery is private.Bernie isn't actually a Bolshevik, right? thankyou! I'm Canadian but im doing my part to spread the word, i believe what happens in the US indirectly or directly (idk) affects us in Cananda land Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I wouldn`t say Obama is very left wing, so outside of right wingers proclaiming it so, it`s hardly left wing economic policies that bear responsibility. If anything, US should try leaning a little left (or a lot, if you ask me). Not only does your post imply that socialism is tantamount to a police state, but history clearly shows that the freedoms that you`re talking about have been chipped away not by socialists with crazy hair, but by the establishment duo. At this rate, you can either believe the socialist Sanders will take your freedoms away, or you can definitely continue to lose them. I think the choice is clear. I don`t think anybody is talking about the government controlling means of production. Our socialist medical system doesn`t prevent you from finding a new doctor, does it? Service delivery is private.Bernie isn't actually a Bolshevik, right? Would you agree Obama's more to the left than Bill Clinton was, and perhaps more left than any president since FDR? Depending on how left you consider yourself, your statement could be entirely true. Universal health care, increasing food stamps program, defining what schools can serve their children or what kids can bring to school for lunch are all economic policies to the left. I'm sure others can list more similar policies that Obama has encouraged or strengthened. Do you not think that forcing Obamacare, under penalty of fines if you do not purchase insurance, and arming the IRS are not signs of an increased police state? I'm not saying we are living under Stalin or Mao here, but why do tax collectors need guns? IIRC, most universal health care concept limit what doctors can earn. That in turns limits the supply of doctors and other care providers, especially better ones, since those that care enough about the bottom line will go elsewhere to practice and/or pursue something more lucrative. It's not so much a matter of whether you are allowed to change doctors, it's whether there is enough doctors available willing to take on new patients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 yeah i was purposefully using loose terms, i totally agree with what your saying except for the emboldened text. i think most self proclaimed leftist will vote for Sanders, Hilary is too close to the middle and i don't believe the voters will believe her when she begins to pretend to be Bernie sanders cause that's the only way she can beat him imho the american people are fed up politics and big money which Clinton heavily represents shes fake and Bernie is real, i don't think socialism scares people away at all, when you think of places like Sweden Finland Germany and Norway you think of the best countries on earth who are obviously getting things right. i highly doubt people wouldn't vote for Bernie because of "freedom based point of view" i think that's the rhetoric the media is spitting out for sure though so i can see how you could think that, i highly recommend watching some RT america videos on Bernie anyways i totally agree with your other points..... I really think Bernie will have an Obama "coming from behind" type victory, if there is a left uprising and the progressive people the people who are being oppressed by the rich corporations will come out to vote for Bernie and will win especially if there is only a 60% voter turnout (or something like that) like last election..... There are people that will agree with you about how successful Scandinavia and Germany are, but given the taxes involved (income and VAT) more people here will fail to see the benefits. In many of those countries, there are limits on what you can study on the government's dime, here, you have the freedom to choose. Also, I believe that many of those countries have better controls on their borders and benefits to citizens, which improves the success of their social programs. Too many policies here are not being enforced where costs could be held under better control. Given how Europe as a whole is struggling economically, why would the US want to be more like that? Bernie could well win the nomination, but I don't think he can win the presidency. His nomination would be due to the weak competition within, since Hillary seems to get weaker every time she speaks. He might have better luck after a Republican failure like Bush Jr. than Obama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockout Casualty Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Would you agree Obama's more to the left than Bill Clinton was, and perhaps more left than any president since FDR? Depending on how left you consider yourself, your statement could be entirely true. Universal health care, increasing food stamps program, defining what schools can serve their children or what kids can bring to school for lunch are all economic policies to the left. I'm sure others can list more similar policies that Obama has encouraged or strengthened. Do you not think that forcing Obamacare, under penalty of fines if you do not purchase insurance, and arming the IRS are not signs of an increased police state? I'm not saying we are living under Stalin or Mao here, but why do tax collectors need guns? IIRC, most universal health care concept limit what doctors can earn. That in turns limits the supply of doctors and other care providers, especially better ones, since those that care enough about the bottom line will go elsewhere to practice and/or pursue something more lucrative. It's not so much a matter of whether you are allowed to change doctors, it's whether there is enough doctors available willing to take on new patients. I would disagree that school lunches are part of economic policy in general, the rest however, sure. I can get behind that. I would also be hesitant to use the food stamps program as an example for your point, as the program's expansion is more a reflection of necessity, rather than a tax and spend policy. In the same vein as the stimulus, while being directly opposite of conservative views, was implemented by the Conservatives. Did Obama arm the IRS? That's ridiculous, but what does that have to do with left wing politics? You're concerned about having to pay for Obamacare, but where's your concern for the Patriot Act? The fact is, it doesn't matter if it's D or R, American freedoms are being stripped consistently. I'm not defending Obama here, he's the other side of the same rusty coin. I don't know why tax collectors need guns. I don't think they need them. Again, you're unsuccessfully attempting to tie authoritativeness and socialism together, but somehow refuse to acknowledge the authoritativeness of the status quo. I'm sure you take issue with police seizing your money and claiming it's guilty until found innocent (and then the ADA proceeds to pay off his student loans), but those are issues that have existed for years and nobody is doing a damn thing about them. You do live in an authoritative state. Just because you can openly criticize your leader doesn't negate that. Most people are too entertained to pay attention to you anyway. IIRC, our government controls healthcare transfers and runs on lower taxes, in pursuit of power at the expense of public services... like health care. I don't think it's wrong to limit what doctors can charge per patient, and if the limit is set below the equilibrium where we'd have enough doctors, I blame the government for underfunding a program, rather than the program itself. I know first hand the difficulty of dealing with doctors over the last 3 years, and especially with specialists, so don't think I'm saying Canada's system is the best thing ever. However, it is still head and shoulders better than what the US had prior to Obamacare. There, I'd probably have killed myself if I had to deal with the same health issues I had here. I'd rather wait for a doctor, than dream of being able to afford one. There's a reason the top reason for bankruptcy in the US is medical bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I would disagree that school lunches are part of economic policy in general, the rest however, sure. I can get behind that. I would also be hesitant to use the food stamps program as an example for your point, as the program's expansion is more a reflection of necessity, rather than a tax and spend policy. In the same vein as the stimulus, while being directly opposite of conservative views, was implemented by the Conservatives. Did Obama arm the IRS? That's ridiculous, but what does that have to do with left wing politics? You're concerned about having to pay for Obamacare, but where's your concern for the Patriot Act? The fact is, it doesn't matter if it's D or R, American freedoms are being stripped consistently. I'm not defending Obama here, he's the other side of the same rusty coin. I don't know why tax collectors need guns. I don't think they need them. Again, you're unsuccessfully attempting to tie authoritativeness and socialism together, but somehow refuse to acknowledge the authoritativeness of the status quo. I'm sure you take issue with police seizing your money and claiming it's guilty until found innocent (and then the ADA proceeds to pay off his student loans), but those are issues that have existed for years and nobody is doing a damn thing about them. You do live in an authoritative state. Just because you can openly criticize your leader doesn't negate that. Most people are too entertained to pay attention to you anyway. IIRC, our government controls healthcare transfers and runs on lower taxes, in pursuit of power at the expense of public services... like health care. I don't think it's wrong to limit what doctors can charge per patient, and if the limit is set below the equilibrium where we'd have enough doctors, I blame the government for underfunding a program, rather than the program itself. I know first hand the difficulty of dealing with doctors over the last 3 years, and especially with specialists, so don't think I'm saying Canada's system is the best thing ever. However, it is still head and shoulders better than what the US had prior to Obamacare. There, I'd probably have killed myself if I had to deal with the same health issues I had here. I'd rather wait for a doctor, than dream of being able to afford one. There's a reason the top reason for bankruptcy in the US is medical bills. Conservatives are only a sub-set of Republicans. You cannot claim everything the GOP does (not even a majority of what they do in recent years) is conservative. Bush was not a conservative... he did his fair share of increasing the federal government and debt. Romney wouldn't have been any better. I agree freedoms are being stripped away by the government, regardless of who is in power. The more centralization of powers, the more the government controls, the less freedom people have, whether it is Obamacare, Patriot Act, or so many other "next great ideas" our officials present to us. My point about arming the IRS had to do with the rising police state. Obama wasn't the first to arm them, but I thought there was a significant increase in armed agents as part of Obamacare. I could be wrong and/or only remembering some wacko email there. But, why would agencies like the EPA or NOAA need guns? Why does the left down here want to have a national police force? That would be a large step towards a police state, IMO. Ideally, it would start out as doing "proper" police work, since the racist people we have in the police now can't handle it (sarcasm intended), but i doubt it would end that way. Just like not all Republicans are conservative, I agree not all socialist societies are police states. But, the more control you give the government, the more likely a police state is. After all, the masterminds in office know what is best for us, and if we the people start to disagree, we need putting in line, right? And given the gun culture here, I would think it more likely to devolve into a police state the more power the government has. Perhaps ironic, since that is the reason the 2nd amendment exists - an attempt to keep the government from having too much power over its citizens. Yes, there are glimpses of authoritarian ideals in some of the laws here. Shouldn't we try to get away from that, rather than add to the problem? Do you think all that much has changed here to improve healthcare now that Obamacare is law? Coverage did not improve for most people, since they already had coverage through work. Costs went up, because someone has to pay for those who need subsidies. The large majority of people could afford health insurance. Each State has programs to support those who could not afford it. The state programs were often not as good, and given your postings over the months (years?) I presume that probably offended you as not being fair. Today, Obamacare reduces the quality of much of the coverage that people already had, provides coverage or partial subsidies for some people, but as a whole reduced the quality of health care in this country IMO. Obamacarefacts.com shows that only about 3% more people have coverage now than when Obama took office (uninsured dropped from ~14% to ~11%). What about the rest? Perhaps because of all the people claimed to be uninsured, not all of them were uninsured because they couldn't afford it, and were between jobs, or too young to care (many of those are paying the fine instead) to spend the money required. Bankruptcy over medical bills really does suck ... almost as much as dying while waiting for treatment. Losing income because you can't work while you wait for treatment is another pain in the butt. I understand you are willing to give up quality for quantity. Shouldn't others have the freedom to make their own choice? Circling back to the OP, it will be interesting to see what kind of fight Bernie can give Hillary. Could make for an interesting battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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