Jordan Subban | D

[kenhodgejr]

Subban has skill but he lacks maturity, size, and a complete game. Stetcher is our small defence man. We can't have to many of them. If Subban can be our fist line RD and power play quarterback that would be great. I think he still needs to develop a bit more though. 

[Vinny in Vancouver]

Play him as a forward, please!

[D.B Cooper]

6 minutes ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

Play him as a forward, please!

Sure. Put him as a forward.   

Then take into consideration where he would be in the depth chart knowing he has no experience as a forward.    

Still isn't making the team

[JustABandwagoner]

Hes prob gonna be an extra added piece/bonus of a trade LOL 

[Vinny in Vancouver]

20 minutes ago, drummerboy said:

Sure. Put him as a forward.   

Then take into consideration where he would be in the depth chart knowing he has no experience as a forward.    

Still isn't making the team

Biega was arguably better than some of our other forwards so what does that tell you?

[RetroCanuck]

8 minutes ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

Biega was arguably better than some of our other forwards so what does that tell you?

haha and subbans a weaker, smaller not as tough Biega. Comparing those two is like comparing a solid tree and a hollow one. Subban can produce offence from the D position, thats hard to do, and once he fine tunes his defensive side he will be a great piece moving forward.

 

Also if management doesn't think Subbans game will translate then why not trade him in a package for a better prospect?

 

As for Subban as forward, where would he slot in? Above the Sedins, eriksson, sutter, Bo ,Baer, Boes, Goldy, Grans, Virtanen even? hell he'd be worse at forward then Megna lol. He's a great prospect at D and I hope and do think he'll make it to the NHL as one sooner or later.

[Vinny in Vancouver]

1 minute ago, RetroCanuck said:

haha and subbans a weaker, smaller not as tough Biega. Comparing those two is like comparing a solid tree and a hollow one. Subban can produce offence from the D position, thats hard to do, and once he fine tunes his defensive side he will be a great piece moving forward.

 

Also if management doesn't think Subbans game will translate then why not trade him in a package for a better prospect?

 

As for Subban as forward, where would he slot in? Above the Sedins, eriksson, sutter, Bo ,Baer, Boes, Goldy, Grans, Virtanen even? hell he'd be worse at forward then Megna lol. He's a great prospect at D and I hope and do think he'll make it to the NHL as one sooner or later.

Weaker? I don't think you know much about the kid. He is known to be physically very strong. Not only that, he is a lot more mobile than Biega, better stick handler, and a much better shot. And as I said, if Biega somehow managed to look better than a lot of our other existing bottom 6 forwards, then what does that tell you about our forward depth? 

You actually think that with our current management that Subban has a better chance cracking our D corps which has very good depth than our forward slot which has such bad depth that Biega got a chance to play? Our management and our previous coach keep talking about his lack of height limiting his chances and therefore asking him to be this super smart (like Stecher) D-man who was voted best D-man in the Canucks this year. Well, Jordan's not going to grow any taller and getting that special kind of hockey IQ is arguably just as tough. Jordan was voted as an All-Star in the AHL this year, and yet, according to Benning and Linden, his current coach Travis Green still refused to send him up because he's not a good enough D-man. Now rumours are that Green has a decent chance of becoming the next Canucks coach. 

As far as trading for a better prospect, why don't you propose a few trades for this "better prospect"? Then, I'd like you to go to the other teams' forums and let's see what they think of your ideas.

[RetroCanuck]

13 minutes ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

Weaker? I don't think you know much about the kid. He is known to be physically very strong. Not only that, he is a lot more mobile than Biega, better stick handler, and a much better shot. And as I said, if Biega somehow managed to look better than a lot of our other existing bottom 6 forwards, then what does that tell you about our forward depth? 

You actually think that with our current management that Subban has a better chance cracking our D corps which has very good depth than our forward slot which has such bad depth that Biega got a chance to play? Our management and our previous coach keep talking about his lack of height limiting his chances and therefore asking him to be this super smart (like Stecher) D-man who was voted best D-man in the Canucks this year. Well, Jordan's not going to grow any taller and getting that special kind of hockey IQ is arguably just as tough. Jordan was voted as an All-Star in the AHL this year, and yet, according to Benning and Linden, his current coach Travis Green still refused to send him up because he's not a good enough D-man. Now rumours are that Green has a decent chance of becoming the next Canucks coach. 

As far as trading for a better prospect, why don't you propose a few trades for this "better prospect"? Then, I'd like you to go to the other teams' forums and let's see what they think of your ideas.

I don't really want to get into this too much considering how poor your argument is but here we go

1st- Biega succeeds as a forward and D man because he works hard and plays a tough game, he hits people. Where as Subban is a skill player, and isn't a rough and tumble guy.

2nd- Subban would be way down our depth chart as a forward compared to our other prospects, plus the time needed to adapt to said new position. Prospects we currently have are way up the depth chart then him at forward. Pedan if anyone would be the best D to turn forward as a 3rd/4th line guy.

3rd- Subban isn't that far down our depth chart as he's one of our few right handed shots. Right defensemen are like gold in the NHL and if Subban can improve his D he will be in the lineup. The Canucks don't have near as much depth on RD as they do LD. Tryamkin himself is a LD playing RD right now because there is no one else to fill that position currently. Subban could be that guy when he proves himself in the AHL.

4th- Subbans limitation is his height. Stetcher succeeds because he knows how to keep gaps tight, play in position and not make stupid mistakes. He use his speed and agility to his advantage instead of size like larger players. Subban on the other hand is still working on these aspects of his game and once they become stronger and more well rounded(which comes with practice, very little practice in NHL) he will be an NHL player.

 

I hope that puts this argument to rest as I believe its your bedtime.

 

[goblix]

 

1 hour ago, RetroCanuck said:

I don't really want to get into this too much considering how poor your argument is but here we go

1st- Biega succeeds as a forward and D man because he works hard and plays a tough game, he hits people. Where as Subban is a skill player, and isn't a rough and tumble guy.

2nd- Subban would be way down our depth chart as a forward compared to our other prospects, plus the time needed to adapt to said new position. Prospects we currently have are way up the depth chart then him at forward. Pedan if anyone would be the best D to turn forward as a 3rd/4th line guy.

3rd- Subban isn't that far down our depth chart as he's one of our few right handed shots. Right defensemen are like gold in the NHL and if Subban can improve his D he will be in the lineup. The Canucks don't have near as much depth on RD as they do LD. Tryamkin himself is a LD playing RD right now because there is no one else to fill that position currently. Subban could be that guy when he proves himself in the AHL.

4th- Subbans limitation is his height. Stetcher succeeds because he knows how to keep gaps tight, play in position and not make stupid mistakes. He use his speed and agility to his advantage instead of size like larger players. Subban on the other hand is still working on these aspects of his game and once they become stronger and more well rounded(which comes with practice, very little practice in NHL) he will be an NHL player.

 

I hope that puts this argument to rest as I believe its your bedtime.

CDC(since forever): Canucks need a skilled powerplay offensive defenseman!

Gillis(2013 Draft): Canucks draft Jordan Subban in the 3rd round

CDC(2013 Draft): Jordan Subban! He's got potential to be a skilled offensive defenseman!

CDC(2016+): Let's move Subban to forward! such a great idea right?!?!

 

 

Seriously though, he's gotta have his shot this camp. Think we should at the very least see what he's got at the NHL level before moving him positions

[N4ZZY]

14 minutes ago, goblix said:

 

CDC(since forever): Canucks need a skilled powerplay offensive defenseman!

Gillis(2013 Draft): Canucks draft Jordan Subban in the 3rd round

CDC(2013 Draft): Jordan Subban! He's got potential to be a skilled offensive defenseman!

CDC(2016+): Let's move Subban to forward! such a great idea right?!?!

 

 

Seriously though, he's gotta have his shot this camp. Think we should at the very least see what he's got at the NHL level before moving him positions

I think Subban will be given a chance at training camp. if not, they should really just cut him loose, so that he's given another opportunity to try and make it to the big show. 

I wonder how bad Subban's defensive play is that he wouldn't even get one call up to play in one NHL game. Must be bad. 

 

[Salmonberries]

I'll never forget The Moj becoming enraged on the radio when we called up Subban and Willie D didn't get him into the lineup. He was ready to start throwing furniture one morning after Subban didn't play; great radio, so funny it almost made me wonder why I don't listen regularly anymore. Of course Subban came up again when Benning and Linden faced the media yesterday as we knew he would,. Subban coming up is always something you can rely on here from the less hockey savvy media members like football guys Moj and Farhan and it's always some entertaining listening. In a way I'm hoping we hang onto Subban and keep him in Utica where he can perhaps become a lifer for them like Archibald seems to have. I think it would be good for Utica, and some good listening around these parts for us.

[Nave]

I think Subban has too much skill to be a career AHLer. He's very good at gaining the offensive zone.

Unfortunately, getting the puck out of his own end is a problem.

[D.B Cooper]

7 hours ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

Biega was arguably better than some of our other forwards so what does that tell you?

That tells me that at the end of the year, the team decided to make due with the roster they had while injured, so they wouldn't disturb Utica and their playoff run. 

[UticaHockey]

5 hours ago, N4ZZY said:

I think Subban will be given a chance at training camp. if not, they should really just cut him loose, so that he's given another opportunity to try and make it to the big show. 

I wonder how bad Subban's defensive play is that he wouldn't even get one call up to play in one NHL game. Must be bad. 

 

They should cut him loose out of training camp if he doesn't make the NHL team even though he will have a full year left on his ELC and waiver exempt status?

[UticaHockey]

7 hours ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

Weaker? I don't think you know much about the kid. He is known to be physically very strong. Not only that, he is a lot more mobile than Biega, better stick handler, and a much better shot. And as I said, if Biega somehow managed to look better than a lot of our other existing bottom 6 forwards, then what does that tell you about our forward depth? 

You actually think that with our current management that Subban has a better chance cracking our D corps which has very good depth than our forward slot which has such bad depth that Biega got a chance to play? Our management and our previous coach keep talking about his lack of height limiting his chances and therefore asking him to be this super smart (like Stecher) D-man who was voted best D-man in the Canucks this year. Well, Jordan's not going to grow any taller and getting that special kind of hockey IQ is arguably just as tough. Jordan was voted as an All-Star in the AHL this year, and yet, according to Benning and Linden, his current coach Travis Green still refused to send him up because he's not a good enough D-man. Now rumours are that Green has a decent chance of becoming the next Canucks coach. 

As far as trading for a better prospect, why don't you propose a few trades for this "better prospect"? Then, I'd like you to go to the other teams' forums and let's see what they think of your ideas.

There is always they yearly pictures of Subban lifting iron that hit the internet each summer but trust me on the ice he continues to be physically dominated by bigger players.  Biega who is also small for his position battles with every ounce of energy in his body to win these physical battles.  Subban is no where near Bulldog's level of intensity when it comes to playing a physical game.

[Ghostsof1915]

1 hour ago, UticaHockey said:

There is always they yearly pictures of Subban lifting iron that hit the internet each summer but trust me on the ice he continues to be physically dominated by bigger players.  Biega who is also small for his position battles with every ounce of energy in his body to win these physical battles.  Subban is no where near Bulldog's level of intensity when it comes to playing a physical game.

Utica I assume you've seen more AHL hockey than most of us here. Has Subban improved his defensive play since the start of the year? 

[kloubek]

12 hours ago, elvis15 said:

1. It's harder to shelter D because there's only three pairings vs four lines like there are with forwards. You can't give a third pairing 5 minutes.
2. Tanev and Subban are both right handed. Do you have someone you trust as much on the left side to pair him with, or are you thinking he'll make his NHL debut on the left?
3. You'd be surprised, even at the AHL level. He does score but has trouble in his own zone for sure. That will only be exposed even more in the NHL.

All great points. 1) Agreed it is harder, but still possible.  He would obviously have to be exposed in situations which aren't entirely favourable given his lack of defensive ability.  Sink or swim.  2) Didn't even think about this.  I don't think you can expect him to transition to the other side without prior experience, so this really is an issue I didn't consider.  3) It is hard to say.  While the sample size is extremely small, Stecher had a .25 ppg with the Comets, and .33 at the NHL level.  Some can transition or thrive, while others fall flat on their face at this level.  Like I said, we won't know unless we try him out... even if the latter is the more likely scenario.

[Vinny in Vancouver]

2 hours ago, drummerboy said:

That tells me that at the end of the year, the team decided to make due with the roster they had while injured, so they wouldn't disturb Utica and their playoff run. 

You didn't read the comment fully. It didn't tell you that Biega looked better than some of our forwards?

[Vinny in Vancouver]

2 hours ago, UticaHockey said:

There is always they yearly pictures of Subban lifting iron that hit the internet each summer but trust me on the ice he continues to be physically dominated by bigger players.  Biega who is also small for his position battles with every ounce of energy in his body to win these physical battles.  Subban is no where near Bulldog's level of intensity when it comes to playing a physical game.

As a D-man, sure, he does not have the physicality. The physical requirements of both positions are SO different. When my son was playing Rep hockey and trying out for Team BC, it was obvious. And sure enough, when the lineups for Team BC was revealed, the average height of D-men was about 3 inches higher than of the forwards and the average weight was well over 10 pounds heavier. 

The point that has been made a lot in this thread is that because of Jordan's lack of stature, his path to being an NHL D-man seems to be blocked. Our management and his current coach keeps mentioning his lack of stature even after years in the organization. The kid oozes offensive potential (great shot, great skating, amazing stickhandling). It's not like it would be the first time that a D-man would be asked to try playing forward to help out. Rome has done it and more recently, Biega has done it. In both cases, the results have been passable. What's the realistic and best way for this talent to help the Canucks?

[Vinny in Vancouver]

10 hours ago, RetroCanuck said:

I don't really want to get into this too much considering how poor your argument is but here we go

1st- Biega succeeds as a forward and D man because he works hard and plays a tough game, he hits people. Where as Subban is a skill player, and isn't a rough and tumble guy.

2nd- Subban would be way down our depth chart as a forward compared to our other prospects, plus the time needed to adapt to said new position. Prospects we currently have are way up the depth chart then him at forward. Pedan if anyone would be the best D to turn forward as a 3rd/4th line guy.

3rd- Subban isn't that far down our depth chart as he's one of our few right handed shots. Right defensemen are like gold in the NHL and if Subban can improve his D he will be in the lineup. The Canucks don't have near as much depth on RD as they do LD. Tryamkin himself is a LD playing RD right now because there is no one else to fill that position currently. Subban could be that guy when he proves himself in the AHL.

4th- Subbans limitation is his height. Stetcher succeeds because he knows how to keep gaps tight, play in position and not make stupid mistakes. He use his speed and agility to his advantage instead of size like larger players. Subban on the other hand is still working on these aspects of his game and once they become stronger and more well rounded(which comes with practice, very little practice in NHL) he will be an NHL player.

 

I hope that puts this argument to rest as I believe its your bedtime.

 

First of all, I believe we're on the same page here - we want to see Jordan succeed and at the same time, help the Canucks. So let us keep that in mind when we respond. We just differ on what the realistic path is.

1st - you fail to mention what Subban's skills are. It's in the offense. Watch him play and check his instincts - he has a lot of the forward instincts - the way, he carries the puck, the way he wants to stickhandle past defenders (even when risky), his wrist shots. It translates. 

2nd - until he plays as a forward, you don't know where he'll be in the depth chart. I don't expect him to make the club in his first year, but what I expect him to do is show what the Canucks really need - skating, creativity with the puck, and good shots. To underline my point about the depth chart, if he gets converted to be a forward in the AHL and he starts leading the team in scoring (which is his forte), don't you think he quickly goes up the depth chart? Not only that, his size won't be as big of a limiting factor because he is now a forward.

3rd - He was an All-Star already. The Canucks weren't playing for the playoffs. The Canucks had injuries. And yet, they refused to send him up? After a few year with the organization, the Canucks management and coaches still keep talking about him being of a smaller size. That sounds a lot like the sticking point to me.

4th - you seriously underestimate what Stecher brings - his hockey IQ's off the charts. Not sure if you watched him live in pre-season, but I did. He was amazingly noticeable. He was our best D-man, and it wasn't close. If it was a Rep tryout, he would have made first team easily. He could see plays before they developed. He could see the above view of everyone on the ice (which is something that is hard to do when you're on the ice). I used to think that hockey IQ is a thing that you could work on. But then I spent some time talking to coaches (some of whom have played in the NHL), and they strongly implied that while fundamentals and habits can be taught, hockey IQ is something that's inherent in the person.