Jordan Subban | D

[Spitfire_Spiky]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

 

This. 

 

They already have a 'feel' for him. That 'feel' is: not ready. 

 

I agree Subban is not ready "defensively" but hasn't had the chance to see if he is offensively. Some players can make it in this league as specialist and if you have that offensive ability it can make up for the lack of defensive ability. With that said if he has any chance at getting any games with the Canucks it will be with Green at the helm since he know exactly what his has in Subban having coached the past seasons. I can't see him making the team out of camp as he is at least 9th-10th on our defensive depth chart however if we have a couple injuries on the back end and if our powerplay struggles to put up points again like last year I could see Green turning to Subban to try and spark the powerplay. It would be nice to see him get that chance but if he doesn't produce his defensive liabilities will have him back in Utica in no time.

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

13 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I would have thought it was a millennials vs non-millennials point of view but it seems there's even a few non-millennials calling for an undersized , clearly not fully developed, late round pick to be thrown in to the deep end before he's learned to tread water, as though he's an olympic swimmer.

Maybe there's another generation that's not being accounted for? I know my grandfather learned to swim via the "throw him in" method.

 

In all seriousness though, I think the whole debate gets settled this year with a little of both. I expect Subban will start in Utica and get some "finishing" work under Cull. But he should see some callups in the second half. Due to his waiver exemption ending next year, the team will probably want to have a look at him at the NHL level while they still have the option of moving him up and down freely. Of course, that's assuming he shows well in Utica. And that part will be up to Subban. But given everything we've seen and heard over the past few months, I expect Subban will be up for the challenge and ready to work for his opportunity.

[JM_]

15 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I would have thought it was a millennials vs non-millennials point of view but it seems there's even a few non-millennials calling for an undersized , clearly not fully developed, late round pick to be thrown in to the deep end before he's learned to tread water, as though he's an olympic swimmer.

exactly my point. Its symbolic, like Trump. 

[aGENT]

7 minutes ago, Spitfire_Spiky said:

I agree Subban is not ready "defensively" but hasn't had the chance to see if he is offensively. Some players can make it in this league as specialist and if you have that offensive ability it can make up for the lack of defensive ability. 

People keep saying this, or some variation of the like but it's not entirely accurate. To get to the NHL, you need some basic level of defensive capability, particularly as a D-man.

 

It's not an on-off switch, there's varying degrees of defensive ability. From say Chara/ (Shea)Weber/Pronger (lets say 10) down to not very good even at the AHL level (let's say 1 or 2). Even a guy like Yannick Weber (who is probably a fair/realistic potential comparison for Subban) has a defensive capability 'score' of probably around 5. He would quite literally school Subban in the AHL.

 

Subban is not there yet. Let the fracking kid develop!

[aGENT]

7 minutes ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

Maybe there's another generation that's not being accounted for? I know my grandfather learned to swim via the "throw him in" method.

 

In all seriousness though, I think the whole debate gets settled this year with a little of both. I expect Subban will start in Utica and get some "finishing" work under Cull. But he should see some callups in the second half. Due to his waiver exemption ending next year, the team will probably want to have a look at him at the NHL level while they still have the option of moving him up and down freely. Of course, that's assuming he shows well in Utica. And that part will be up to Subban. But given everything we've seen and heard over the past few months, I expect Subban will be up for the challenge and ready to work for his opportunity.

You mean be patient enough to follow through on his development and let him attempt to earn a deserved call up this year to test the waters?

 

Sounds suspiciously like what some of us have been preaching

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

10 minutes ago, J.R. said:

You mean be patient enough to follow through on his development and let him attempt to earn a deserved call up this year to test the waters?

 

Sounds suspiciously like what some of us have been preaching

Yup. It's almost like they're handling him along the same type of timeline that many people mapped out from his draft day. Two development years in the AHL. Then a transition year during his final season of waivers exemption. And hopefully ready for the jump to the NHL by 2018.

[shiznak]

18 hours ago, alfstonker said:

The answer is very simple.

If you are trying to develop a DEFENDER you don't reward him for NOT developing as a DEFENDER.

 

Subban will either "get this" or he won't. He went down to watch Ellis making all the right noises (don't they all?) so let's see what he has learned before rewarding him for missing his goal.

Still not a valid reason on why the team didn't bring him up at the end of last season, when the games meant nothing. What do they have to lose? It's not going to ruin his development by giving him 5 or so games. 

[RetroCanuck]

45 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Still not a valid reason on why the team didn't bring him up at the end of last season, when the games meant nothing. What do they have to lose? It's not going to ruin his development by giving him 5 or so games. 

Well Utica was in the hunt for a playoff birth and lets be honest, when a teams out of the playoffs they play poorly and some prospects excel though adrenaline and lack of compete from others. They look better.

[Gaudette Celly]

Bobby Sanguinetti and Adam Clendening put up more PPG in the OHL, NCAA, and AHL than Jordan Subban, and don't have the size disadvantage either.

[alfstonker]

5 hours ago, shiznak said:

Still not a valid reason on why the team didn't bring him up at the end of last season, when the games meant nothing. What do they have to lose? It's not going to ruin his development by giving him 5 or so games. 

I think it was.

 

The Canucks team especially the D was packed with young players - they need the experience and the chance to play while not under the same pressure. Also to place a guy who's weakness is DEFENCE into an already young team is unfair to the rest of that team  - by the way it is a fallacy that these games meant nothing, it's the opposite in fact, they are, as I said a chance for the team to gel and gain experience while not under the same pressure.

 

Why is it that half of CDC constantly think they know better than guys who have been in the game, whether playing, coaching, scouting or management at a high level?

 

People need to stop acting like this is a pub team and devaluing the importance of EARNING your chances  - Crying "unfair" just because some players write funky twitter feeds and act the clown while taking the easy route because doing what the coach is asking is apparently too difficult. We had it with Jake and Kassian. Meanwhile these same fans hammer good pro's who appreciate the value of the work that needs to be done to first get a chance and then to stay in this league.

 

This boy needs to work on his WEAKNESSES, he has been told that for two seasons now and he has apparently hardly moved forward. It may be unfair but he comes over as cocky and over confident, so maybe he is one of those players who thinks they know better than the coach - I hope not but time is running out and we are drafting and moving up players who will take his spot, if he fails to wake up and improve his defence.

[Putgolzin]

mark my word, bosang is gonna be a star in this league

[Noble 6]

 

[canuckledraggin]

5 hours ago, nzan said:

mark my word, bosang is gonna be a star in this league

Bring back Desiboy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[elvis15]

On 7/25/2017 at 6:33 PM, Chip Kelly said:

The fans have a say with their tv viewership and wallet. Create enough pressure in a big market and the ownership will have to listen eventually.

 

I don't care if he can play d. The main job for a forward is to score goals. If you rip on Subban for being a rover and not able to play d like a d man should then Brendan Guance deserves the same blame its only fair.

 

If Subban has a good preseason fans will be clamoring for him to make the team and it will put pressure on the organization for them to play him since they are so desperate for any offensive contribution from the back end.

I won't hold my breath waiting for the level of pressure required from fans that'd force management and/or ownership to put a player on an NHL roster. And no, the main job of all forwards isn't just to score goals. There are clearly roles within the forward group that have very little to do with scoring goals, and a fourth line center/winger would be one of those.

 

I don't rip on Subban, I'm realistic about his abilities. And those abilities are him having trouble playing defence in the AHL, which isn't going to get better - even to the point of being NHL replacement level acceptable - against some of the top competition in the world. I won't even hold my breath in October.

[RetroCanuck]

7 hours ago, elvis15 said:

I won't hold my breath waiting for the level of pressure required from fans that'd force management and/or ownership to put a player on an NHL roster. And no, the main job of all forwards isn't just to score goals. There are clearly roles within the forward group that have very little to do with scoring goals, and a fourth line center/winger would be one of those.

 

I don't rip on Subban, I'm realistic about his abilities. And those abilities are him having trouble playing defence in the AHL, which isn't going to get better - even to the point of being NHL replacement level acceptable - against some of the top competition in the world. I won't even hold my breath in October.

I wouldn't give up on Subban yet. He's still young and from what management/coaches said last year he did improve his defensive game. Next years a big one for him and it will be good to have a coach that has a good history of developing defensemen and taking them to the next step.

[aGENT]

25 minutes ago, RetroCanuck said:

I wouldn't give up on Subban yet.

Who's doing that? Why is it asking for patience (for a young, not ready prospect) on here gets construed as 'hate', 'doubt' or 'giving up on'?

[RetroCanuck]

1 minute ago, J.R. said:

Who's doing that? Why is it asking for patience (for a young, not ready prospect) on here gets construed as 'hate', 'doubt' or 'giving up on'?

well the second paragraph of the guy i quote hinted at that.

 

"I don't rip on Subban, I'm realistic about his abilities. And those abilities are him having trouble playing defence in the AHL, which isn't going to get better - even to the point of being NHL replacement level acceptable"

 

He's basically saying he won't ever be an NHL defensemen.

[aGENT]

5 minutes ago, RetroCanuck said:

well the second paragraph of the guy i quote hinted at that.

 

"I don't rip on Subban, I'm realistic about his abilities. And those abilities are him having trouble playing defence in the AHL, which isn't going to get better - even to the point of being NHL replacement level acceptable"

 

He's basically saying he won't ever be an NHL defensemen.

Possibly because you edited his quote to remove:

 

Quote

against some of the top competition in the world.

...which alters the entire meaning of what you quoted to no longer suit your silly posts.

[RetroCanuck]

1 minute ago, J.R. said:

Possibly because you edited his quote to remove:

 

...which alters the entire meaning of what you quoted to no longer suit your silly posts.

his----"I don't rip on Subban, I'm realistic about his abilities. And those abilities are him having trouble playing defence in the AHL, which isn't going to get better - even to the point of being NHL replacement level acceptable - against some of the top competition in the world. I won't even hold my breath in October."

 

What I took from his----"I don't rip on Subban, I'm realistic about his abilities. And those abilities are him having trouble playing defence in the AHL, which isn't going to get better - even to the point of being NHL replacement level acceptable"

 

the difference----"against some of the top competition in the world. I won't even hold my breath in October."

 

I don't know whats up JR as I find you a respectable poster but you seem off on this one. I don't know if you can't read this morning but both say the same thing. They say that Subban won't be an NHL defensemen and he won't play against pros...ever.

 

Perhaps you should re read everything JR because I think your temper is getting in the way of true meaning. As I said I think Subban has a good chance of being an NHL player especially with the new UTICA coach.

 

If you still seem to think Im ragging on Subban let me know but maybe take a bit of a break to clear your thoughts and then reread everything slowly.

[aGENT]

5 minutes ago, RetroCanuck said:

his----"I don't rip on Subban, I'm realistic about his abilities. And those abilities are him having trouble playing defence in the AHL, which isn't going to get better - even to the point of being NHL replacement level acceptable - against some of the top competition in the world. I won't even hold my breath in October."

 

What I took from his----"I don't rip on Subban, I'm realistic about his abilities. And those abilities are him having trouble playing defence in the AHL, which isn't going to get better - even to the point of being NHL replacement level acceptable"

 

the difference----"against some of the top competition in the world. I won't even hold my breath in October."

 

I don't know whats up JR as I find you a respectable poster but you seem off on this one. I don't know if you can't read this morning but both say the same thing. They say that Subban won't be an NHL defensemen and he won't play against pros...ever.

 

Perhaps you should re read everything JR because I think your temper is getting in the way of true meaning. As I said I think Subban has a good chance of being an NHL player especially with the new UTICA coach.

 

If you still seem to think Im ragging on Subban let me know but maybe take a bit of a break to clear your thoughts and then reread everything slowly.

 Temper and commenting on my reading ability! 

 

I'm not the one having problems with reading comprehension here...

 

The FULL quote:

 

8 hours ago, elvis15 said:

And those abilities are him having trouble playing defence in the AHL, which isn't going to get better - even to the point of being NHL replacement level acceptable - against some of the top competition in the world. I won't even hold my breath in October.

AKA: He's struggles defensively at the AHL level, not being even NHL replacement quality right now and that's not going to improve playing against the top competition in the world at the NHL level this fall.

 

Elvis could certainly have written it more clearly but it it is not I having trouble understanding words on a page.