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Discussion: Baertschi losing favour with Willie


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lol you missed my whole point. Of course you have to be in it to win it, but your chances are so slim that, for most people, by the time they've won the lottery, they've put just as much money in. It's a gimmick more than anything. It's a gimmick made to make people spend their money with this notion that they could win the lottery.

As for two.... that was my point, so why are you even writing this?

Next time, before you reply to me with that mentality of "I know everything and you don't", please make sure you're actually reading my post and understanding why I'm posting it.

I'm having a difficult time understanding your lottery comparison, though.  So, hypothetically, If a 60 year old person wins the 1 million dollar prize in the lottery... You're saying that they would have put in just about as much?  Let's say they average 50$ a week starting at 18 years old, that would mean they would have invested just over 100,000$, hardly near 1 million dollars. They would have had to spend 500$  week on the lottery.  You know a lot of people who have that kind of expendable income for the lottery?  If they did, then they wouldn't need to play the lottery. That's just a hypothetical average situation.  Try another comparison, that one wasn't very good.

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You mean of course for the second time in 4 days. He praised him after his last game too.

When is the penny going to drop around here. Willie responds to hard work, players who put in a selfless shift for the team. When they do that they get praised and their minutes increased.

He is NOT against youth, he encourages good habits and "punishes" bad habits. That is how young players learn. Willie is not a coach to please them, he is there to develop them and teach them the way to have a long NHL career.

It's too bad he cannot recognize and "punish" bad habits in the vets too because some of the bad habits have been there for years.

I don't think the problem with Desjardins is his approach to young players. It is that his standards on things like defensive play, working hard, and playing a two way game and the accountability if they don't do not apply to the vets in the same way. 

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It's too bad he cannot recognize and "punish" bad habits in the vets too because some of the bad habits have been there for years.

I don't think the problem with Desjardins is his approach to young players. It is that his standards on things like defensive play, working hard, and playing a two way game and the accountability if they don't do not apply to the vets in the same way. 

Amigo, if we were talking about Calgary or Buffalo I might agree but these guys have paid their dues. Are you seriously saying that the Twins, Hamhuis, Edler Hansen etc need to have their minutes reduced if they make a bad mistake.

Frankly I think that is going too far. That way lies Tortorella madness. 

These vets don't need told but they probably do have their mistakes discussed or but it won't include having their minutes reduced. They have a great record not only in the NHL but at International level. They adjust and get it right the next time. You can't equate these guys with rookies for goodness sake.

Willie like all good coaches probably has different approaches to different players, we won't see it but it will be there, behind closed doors.

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Amigo, if we were talking about Calgary or Buffalo I might agree but these guys have paid their dues. Are you seriously saying that the Twins, Hamhuis, Edler Hansen etc need to have their minutes reduced if they make a bad mistake.

Frankly I think that is going too far. That way lies Tortorella madness. 

These vets don't need told but they probably do have their mistakes discussed or but it won't include having their minutes reduced. They have a great record not only in the NHL but at International level. They adjust and get it right the next time. You can't equate these guys with rookies for goodness sake.

Willie like all good coaches probably has different approaches to different players, we won't see it but it will be there, behind closed doors.

Who was it that said, "This isn't a try league. This is a get it done league"?

The reality is that yes they should have their minutes reduced when they show they can no longer do the job consistently. That is just the nature of the beast in pro sports.

Which in your mind is worse? A rookie making a mistake for the first few times or a vet making the same mistakes for years on end? If the vets were not making the same mistakes over and over again you may have a point. How many times has Edler drop passed to a goal against us over the years? How many times have the Sedins passed the puck when they should have shot on the PP or 5 on 5? It is the lack of learning from mistakes that frustrates me not making a mistake itself because all players do.

As for different approaches to players why is it that I have not heard him publicly call out a vet player on this team when their play has cost us a game? Why haven't I seen a press box trip for any of them to "wake them up". Have they all played flawlessly since he took over as coach? The reality is that he either doesn't see how badly they play at times or he does and just ignores it. Neither inspires much confidence. He has no issue doing so to several rookies almost every game. The standard is as I said. One for vets and one for young players. I find that unacceptable from an NHL coach.

It also explains why this group cannot get it done when push comes to shove. The vets know they will never lose their cushy roles no matter how badly they play.

Desjardins seems to coach scared a lot of the time. Won't rock the boat of the vets at all. Won't try anything outside the box to get things turned around. He just waits and throws away games and valuable points waiting for them to turn themselves around. That doesn't work in the playoffs as we have seen for several years and especially saw last year against Calgary.

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I see a whole team trying damned hard every night.

Who says they can no longer do their job? The fans? the same people who said Hansen was finished, the twins were too slow, Edler was worthless in a trade, the team would suck? Yeah let's listen to them, they're never wrong.

I don't want to hear him publicly call out a player and I have little respect for anyone who does want to see that. I don't believe any player should be called out in public. Are your gaffs advertised in the local newspaper? 

No they don't know they will never lose their jobs, Bieksa was a good example and Bonino. If players are not cutting it or are a liability they will be moved, that's the way the professionals do it.

Honestly amigo we are so far apart, you and I on how a coach should go about his job I can see we will never agree. Who are these perfect coaches you have in mind, why not list them and lest's see if they live DOWN to your standards.

"It also explains why this group cannot get it done when push comes to shove. The vets know they will never lose their cushy roles no matter how badly they play"

More unsubstantiated nonsense. They were a barrowload of injuries away from "getting it done" in 2011. If you are going to throw to the wolves every player who hasn't a ring this league will be recruiting from Europe in no time.

It seems to me you have so little respect for the team, the players, the coaches and the management I wonder why you don't go elsewhere and support these perfect specimens of your philosophy and leave the rest of us to sleepwalk through our mediocrity.

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I see a whole team trying damned hard every night.

Who says they can no longer do their job? The fans? the same people who said Hansen was finished, the twins were too slow, Edler was worthless in a trade, the team would suck? Yeah let's listen to them, they're never wrong.

I don't want to hear him publicly call out a player and I have little respect for anyone who does want to see that. I don't believe any player should be called out in public. Are your gaffs advertised in the local newspaper? 

No they don't know they will never lose their jobs, Bieksa was a good example and Bonino. If players are not cutting it or are a liability they will be moved, that's the way the professionals do it.

Honestly amigo we are so far apart, you and I on how a coach should go about his job I can see we will never agree. Who are these perfect coaches you have in mind, why not list them and lest's see if they live DOWN to your standards.

"It also explains why this group cannot get it done when push comes to shove. The vets know they will never lose their cushy roles no matter how badly they play"

More unsubstantiated nonsense. They were a barrowload of injuries away from "getting it done" in 2011. If you are going to throw to the wolves every player who hasn't a ring this league will be recruiting from Europe in no time.

It seems to me you have so little respect for the team, the players, the coaches and the management I wonder why you don't go elsewhere and support these perfect specimens of your philosophy and leave the rest of us to sleepwalk through our mediocrity.

I don't expect perfection. If you read what I wrote you will see that. What I expect - like I would with my children - is that the coach and the vets would actually learn from their mistakes. If you have watched Canucks hockey for the past 4 years and suggest they are doing so then we will have to agree to disagree. 

But lets keep using 2011 as an excuse not to hold vets accountable. While we are at it, let's add some context that you conveniently omit from your "they almost win a cup so they should get a free pass for life" argument.

They have had one good playoff run (after almost choking away a 3-0 lead against Chicago) throughout the entire life span of this core group. And they got shut out in game 7 of the SCF at home (and looked terrible doing it) after blowing a 3-2 series lead. Every other playoff performance has ranged from mediocre to downright choking. History clearly shows a core group that can't elevate their game and get it done in the playoffs. It blows me away that anyone still tries to refute that point.

If accountability doesn't apply to all, it is essentially useless. As we have seen for years here. 

And do you disagree with a coach calling out ALL players in the media? Or just certain ones because I remember you being right on board with Desjardins calling out Kassian publicly last year. Like Willie, it seems you have different standards as to what is acceptable based on youth or vets. I don't care if he thinks that is the way to motivate players (I personally disagree that any player benefits from it but it is his call) but again if he does it to one he should do it to all. Otherwise it looks exactly like what it is.

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I don't expect perfection. If you read what I wrote you will see that. What I expect - like I would with my children - is that the coach and the vets would actually learn from their mistakes. If you have watched Canucks hockey for the past 4 years and suggest they are doing so then we will have to agree to disagree. 

But lets keep using 2011 as an excuse not to hold vets accountable. While we are at it, let's add some context that you conveniently omit from your "they almost win a cup so they should get a free pass for life" argument.

They have had one good playoff run (after almost choking away a 3-0 lead against Chicago) throughout the entire life span of this core group. And they got shut out in game 7 of the SCF at home (and looked terrible doing it) after blowing a 3-2 series lead. Every other playoff performance has ranged from mediocre to downright choking. History clearly shows a core group that can't elevate their game and get it done in the playoffs. It blows me away that anyone still tries to refute that point.

If accountability doesn't apply to all, it is essentially useless. As we have seen for years here. 

And do you disagree with a coach calling out ALL players in the media? Or just certain ones because I remember you being right on board with Desjardins calling out Kassian publicly last year. Like Willie, it seems you have different standards as to what is acceptable based on youth or vets. I don't care if he thinks that is the way to motivate players (I personally disagree that any player benefits from it but it is his call) but again if he does it to one he should do it to all. Otherwise it looks exactly like what it is.

I'm sorry but you have a one dimensional idea of accountability and not one I recognise in any high level sport let alone hockey.

Come to think of it, I don't remember you being so much for accountability public or otherwise where Kassian was involved. This is obviously a recent "conversion" for you. :P

Anyway, imo Willie has got it right, the results speak for themselves. I'm still waiting for examples of where you see these coaches who validate your philosophy as plainly outlined above.

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Aren't the Canucks doing better than most predicted before the season started???

I'm pretty sure most were thinking 8-12 in West. 

Surprise we're 5th. Plus the 100+ point season last year. I think WD doing OK.....

is he doing OK with the development of the young guys, like Baer?

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is he doing OK with the development of the young guys, like Baer?

What else is he supposed to do for Baer? shoot & score for him too. He gives him plenty of opportunities to succeed.

How did he do with Bo? Hows Hutton doing? Hows our leading scorer doing?  

WD is not our problem people.  

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I'm sorry but you have a one dimensional idea of accountability and not one I recognise in any high level sport let alone hockey.

Come to think of it, I don't remember you being so much for accountability public or otherwise where Kassian was involved. This is obviously a recent "conversion" for you. :P

Anyway, imo Willie has got it right, the results speak for themselves. I'm still waiting for examples of where you see these coaches who validate your philosophy as plainly outlined above.

Then you obviously know little about coaching specifically or motivating people in general. Accountability when implemented properly can be the foundation of a strong team or group. If it is not applied fairly though it can be a real dividing factor. That is basically common sense.

Based on what I have seen the application of accountability based on different standards (either publicly, privately, or through no change to a certain players role or ice time despite play) has not been a benefit to this team over the years. AV was bad for it, Torts was bad for it (in the opposite way), and now Willie is bad for it the AV way again.

Not many people actually respond well to being publicly shamed, despite what the older generation of coaches might think. And most of the time it is not really being done to motivate them as much as to distract from the real issues that are going on. If you think about it, that is also common sense. In the case of Willie it seems to happen a lot when a coaching decision like shortening the bench costs us a game.  

And actually, for the record, I always said that Kassian - like every other player on the team - should be accountable.  My only issue with the situation was exactly what I am talking about now. Inconsistent standards of accountability among the different groups of players. 

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It's too bad he cannot recognize and "punish" bad habits in the vets too because some of the bad habits have been there for years.

I don't think the problem with Desjardins is his approach to young players. It is that his standards on things like defensive play, working hard, and playing a two way game and the accountability if they don't do not apply to the vets in the same way. 

I think that you are missing the real dynamic make up of this team at this time. Rookies and vets are not the same and therefore aren't treated the same way. WD's approach to the rookies is based on teaching them to play and stay in the NHL. This team would be hard pressed to win any games if the vets were benched like rookies. When the veteran core is gone, the rookies of 2014 to 2017 will be in a stronger position to play effectively and win consistently due to WD and the NHL maturity of the current vets. Relax, all good things take some time.

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I'm having a difficult time understanding your lottery comparison, though.  So, hypothetically, If a 60 year old person wins the 1 million dollar prize in the lottery... You're saying that they would have put in just about as much?  Let's say they average 50$ a week starting at 18 years old, that would mean they would have invested just over 100,000$, hardly near 1 million dollars. They would have had to spend 500$  week on the lottery.  You know a lot of people who have that kind of expendable income for the lottery?  If they did, then they wouldn't need to play the lottery. That's just a hypothetical average situation.  Try another comparison, that one wasn't very good.

If the 60 year old wins, they've still won against the odds. If the odds are a million to 1, then you'd have to have paid for the lotttery 1 million times to be on par. Even then, you can lose more than that, and a lot of people would, so the average would be paying for the lottery a million times.

It has nothing to do with age. :)

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So to start out November Baertschi has 3 points in 4 games and has a plus/minus of +2.

In all of October he had 3 points in 9 games and had a plus/minus of +1.

I like where this is going.

He just needs patience and faith in him really. The sky's the limit with him if he can get going, just people seem to see the negative in everything all the time and expect results immediately.

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I think that you are missing the real dynamic make up of this team at this time. Rookies and vets are not the same and therefore aren't treated the same way. WD's approach to the rookies is based on teaching them to play and stay in the NHL. This team would be hard pressed to win any games if the vets were benched like rookies. When the veteran core is gone, the rookies of 2014 to 2017 will be in a stronger position to play effectively and win consistently due to WD and the NHL maturity of the current vets. Relax, all good things take some time.

Almost all teams are going through that same process continuously. Some teams choose to put their skilled young players in offensive roles (Chicago as one) and it's funny how using a young player to his strengths instead of trying to make him something that he is not actually reduces their learning curve. The best coaches and teams don't try to create all players being equal two way types. They use players in ways that take advantage of their strengths and limit the impact of their weaknesses. That's the difference between a good coach and a great coach imo.

I disagree though. I think this team would win as many if not more games relying on the young players more and reducing the reliance on the vets a bit. How big of a difference has our terribly ineffective pp made at the end of the day as one example? Short handed goals against and limited pp goals along with almost a momentum killing pace? How could inserting a young player or two really be worse than that?

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Almost all teams are going through that same process continuously. Some teams choose to put their skilled young players in offensive roles (Chicago as one) and it's funny how using a young player to his strengths instead of trying to make him something that he is not actually reduces their learning curve. The best coaches and teams don't try to create all players being equal two way types. They use players in ways that take advantage of their strengths and limit the impact of their weaknesses. That's the difference between a good coach and a great coach imo.

I disagree though. I think this team would win as many if not more games relying on the young players more and reducing the reliance on the vets a bit. How big of a difference has our terribly ineffective pp made at the end of the day as one example? Short handed goals against and limited pp goals along with almost a momentum killing pace? How could inserting a young player or two really be worse than that?

I'm glad Baertschi is at least getting a shot. I think what we're seeing more at the moment are growing pains through the transistion. Last year, Vey was put on the 3rd and 4th line more because of all of the veteran contracts Benning started with at the beginning of his tenure here. It's pretty evident he's worked to change that and will continue to change that. It's a lot harder to fill a top 6 role with rookies when you have all of the veteran contracts. With Chicago, we constantly see rookies come up to a top 6 role, then get traded away. We've needed to clear space first before we can even get to that point. lol

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If the 60 year old wins, they've still won against the odds. If the odds are a million to 1, then you'd have to have paid for the lotttery 1 million times to be on par. Even then, you can lose more than that, and a lot of people would, so the average would be paying for the lottery a million times.

It has nothing to do with age. :)

Nope.  Still doesn't work.

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