Discussion: Baertschi losing favour with Willie

[JAY JAY]

Almost all teams are going through that same process continuously. Some teams choose to put their skilled young players in offensive roles (Chicago as one) and it's funny how using a young player to his strengths instead of trying to make him something that he is not actually reduces their learning curve. The best coaches and teams don't try to create all players being equal two way types. They use players in ways that take advantage of their strengths and limit the impact of their weaknesses. That's the difference between a good coach and a great coach imo.

 

I disagree though. I think this team would win as many if not more games relying on the young players more and reducing the reliance on the vets a bit. How big of a difference has our terribly ineffective pp made at the end of the day as one example? Short handed goals against and limited pp goals along with almost a momentum killing pace? How could inserting a young player or two really be worse than that?

 

True, but to what degree of success is achieved and for how long? Chicago as an example, and one you use to further your argument that the Canucks, or WD should use the kids more is false as a comparison. The Hawks are at a level that is Vancouver's future and not the present. Their core and defense are miles apart from the Canucks and can absorb the mistakes made while learning the NHL game, one that the Canucks cannot, as yet. The Oilers are an example of what the youth can achieve without support. The Canucks are following the vision of TL and JB. Their selection of WD as coach is part of that overall vision. He is a teaching coach and the kids will benefit from that and the transition the Canucks will make to an elite club. The same system being employed in Utica under Greene who will be the future Canuck coach, I believe.

We would all like to see the kids tear it up, but realistically - one word DEFENSE. We would give up more against I think while whittling away their confidence and further delaying our road to the cup.   Can you say OILERS.

Just my opinion of course.

[Drakrami]

I think Baertschi's played better than Horvat with half the ice time.

[Boudrias]

Baer's game is getting more consistent as the season progresses. I expect he gets at least 40 games before any serious questioning of his NHL potential.

[wallstreetamigo]

True, but to what degree of success is achieved and for how long? Chicago as an example, and one you use to further your argument that the Canucks, or WD should use the kids more is false as a comparison. The Hawks are at a level that is Vancouver's future and not the present. Their core and defense are miles apart from the Canucks and can absorb the mistakes made while learning the NHL game, one that the Canucks cannot, as yet. The Oilers are an example of what the youth can achieve without support. The Canucks are following the vision of TL and JB. Their selection of WD as coach is part of that overall vision. He is a teaching coach and the kids will benefit from that and the transition the Canucks will make to an elite club. The same system being employed in Utica under Greene who will be the future Canuck coach, I believe.

We would all like to see the kids tear it up, but realistically - one word DEFENSE. We would give up more against I think while whittling away their confidence and further delaying our road to the cup.   Can you say OILERS.

Just my opinion of course.

The Canucks do have a terrible team next to Chicago. I will give you that. They have also had terrible management, scouting, etc for many years too. They were a dominant team in 2011. Had our management traded some of those older players for young players and picks 3 or 4 years ago we would probably be a very good team again already. 

But if I am being honest I truly believe that some of the young guys (Baertschi being one of them) have actually been better defensively than some of the vets and can be relied on at both ends.

The Oilers "sky is falling" comparison is so tired though. Not everything is always at the extreme. Playing guys like McCann and Baertschi more than 9 min per game and putting them on the top PP unit (considering its current incarnation regularly loses us games by not being able to score and giving up shg) is not throwing them to the wolves or anything that will overwhelm them or ruin their development. It is called adjusting as a coach and putting the players who are getting it done out there in situations where you need to get it done. Those two players especially need to be used on the top pp even just to see if they can convert some chances. Show faith in them and if they don't help we are literally no worse off than we are now.

[Sedintwinpowersactivate]

I'm happy my thread is still plodding along.  Of course I'd be ecstatic if Bart was sniping a goal a game, but I think his development is trending along fine.  He looks dangerous out there, so more production can be expected as his comfort level increases.  WD will up his ice time and power play time accordingly.  Right now we are a bubble team, winning or losing 3-2 games based on goaltending or timely goals.  I think we can all agree that the future is looking brighter with Horvat, Virtanan, McCann, Hutton, Shinkaruk, Boeser and Baertschi!

[khay]

True, but to what degree of success is achieved and for how long? Chicago as an example, and one you use to further your argument that the Canucks, or WD should use the kids more is false as a comparison. The Hawks are at a level that is Vancouver's future and not the present. Their core and defense are miles apart from the Canucks and can absorb the mistakes made while learning the NHL game, one that the Canucks cannot, as yet. The Oilers are an example of what the youth can achieve without support. The Canucks are following the vision of TL and JB. Their selection of WD as coach is part of that overall vision. He is a teaching coach and the kids will benefit from that and the transition the Canucks will make to an elite club. The same system being employed in Utica under Greene who will be the future Canuck coach, I believe.

We would all like to see the kids tear it up, but realistically - one word DEFENSE. We would give up more against I think while whittling away their confidence and further delaying our road to the cup.   Can you say OILERS.

Just my opinion of course.

I agree. Chicago can still win games despite the mistakes from the rookies/younger players. The younger players on Chicago will learn from their mistakes and get better. Compare this to what Edmonton and Toronto did, which is to give the rookies all the responsibilities in the world. in simple terms, Chicago provides an ideal working environment to the younger players whereas Edmonton/Toronto provides crappy work environment.

To certain degree, we are doing what Chicago is doing. The veterans of this team are still good enough to wins some games despite the rookies' mistakes. And from what I've seen, the rookies that we have are talented and they bring a lot of positive energy to the team; the rookies are capable of winning us some games too despite the veterans not playing so well. 

As a result, we will win some games and we will lose some games, as a fan, I understand this and I'm happy as long as the effort level is there and in most of the games this season, it has been there. We aren't the same team of 2008-13, where we were expected to win almost every game and losing meant not playing the full 60 minutes.  

I think the goal is to use these games in the earlier part of the season to give the rookies chance to grow as much as possible because if they are still making the simple mistakes in the latter part of the season, WD has no choice but to increase the minutes of the veterans in the latter part of the season... and because the vets are not what they used to be (unlike Chicago, whose vets are still in their prime), there is a strong possibility that we miss the playoffs if that happens.

The coaches and the management understand this and I don't think they are losing favour with any specific player, let alone Baertschi. 

If Baertschi (or any other young player) doesn't improve by near the end of the season (like Vey last season), then we can re-visit this thread and talk about whether Baertschi has lost favour with WD.

 

[smokes]

Sven seems to be driving the Vrbata-Horvat line right now. Good for him. 

Just a thought. Seeing how Sven likes to shoot as well as a smart offensive player. What would he look like 

Sedin-Sedin-Sven

[Canuck Surfer]

Sven seems to be driving the Vrbata-Horvat line right now. Good for him. 

Just a thought. Seeing how Sven likes to shoot as well as a smart offensive player. What would he look like 

Sedin-Sedin-Sven

My guess is magic on the PP.  The skill is tantalizing! Not good enough on the cycle 5 on 5.

Does not near enough of the glue work (boards, battling in front of the net, fore checking like a demon) to let Willie forget why he reverts to Hansen & in particular Burrows so often.

Just my guess...

[The Lock]

My guess is magic on the PP.  The skill is tantalizing! Not good enough on the cycle 5 on 5.

Does not near enough of the glue work (boards, battling in front of the net, fore checking like a demon) to let Willie forget why he reverts to Hansen & in particular Burrows so often.

Just my guess...

Yeah, I see him as a pure offensive type player, which is something we don't have a lot of in the prospect pool, at least not with his skyscraper-type ceiling. He might work with the Sedins in some situations, but if that line needs more space than the grit of Hansen or Burrows might be better.

[alfstonker]

Then you obviously know little about coaching specifically or motivating people in general. Accountability when implemented properly can be the foundation of a strong team or group. If it is not applied fairly though it can be a real dividing factor. That is basically common sense.

Based on what I have seen the application of accountability based on different standards (either publicly, privately, or through no change to a certain players role or ice time despite play) has not been a benefit to this team over the years. AV was bad for it, Torts was bad for it (in the opposite way), and now Willie is bad for it the AV way again.

Not many people actually respond well to being publicly shamed, despite what the older generation of coaches might think. And most of the time it is not really being done to motivate them as much as to distract from the real issues that are going on. If you think about it, that is also common sense. In the case of Willie it seems to happen a lot when a coaching decision like shortening the bench costs us a game.  

And actually, for the record, I always said that Kassian - like every other player on the team - should be accountable.  My only issue with the situation was exactly what I am talking about now. Inconsistent standards of accountability among the different groups of players. 

You talk of inconsistent standards because it is obvious you have no idea about coaching standards of any kind.

I asked you about coaches who illustrate your standards and you give me 3 who you consider don't meet them.

One of these 3 is a Stanley Cup winner. I never liked him but that is besides the point, he has a ring.

One is a Calder Cup winner and 3rd winningest rookie coach ever to coach in the NHL. He is presently doing one of the hardest jobs in coaching and that is transitioning a group of rookies into the team while continuing to win.

The last is a Jack Adams nominee and In his first season, coached the Canucks to a franchise record 49 wins, eclipsing the 46-win season recorded under Pat Quinn.

He has won 3 Presidents Trophies, been to 2 SC Finals and only missed the playoffs once in the last 9 years.

There is no more to be said.

 

 

[wallstreetamigo]

You talk of inconsistent standards because it is obvious you have no idea about coaching standards of any kind.

I asked you about coaches who illustrate your standards and you give me 3 who you consider don't meet them.

One of these 3 is a Stanley Cup winner. I never liked him but that is besides the point, he has a ring.

One is a Calder Cup winner and 3rd winningest rookie coach ever to coach in the NHL. He is presently doing one of the hardest jobs in coaching and that is transitioning a group of rookies into the team while continuing to win.

The last is a Jack Adams nominee and In his first season, coached the Canucks to a franchise record 49 wins, eclipsing the 46-win season recorded under Pat Quinn.

He has won 3 Presidents Trophies, been to 2 SC Finals and only missed the playoffs once in the last 9 years.

There is no more to be said.

 

 

Again, not everything lives at the extremes. Coaches - like all people in any walk of life - have weaknesses and strengths.

Suggesting they have those weaknesses do not mean they are terrible coaches just like ignoring them does not mean they are perfect coaches.

[mll]

I can't seem to get a read on where he stands with the Canucks - and how much freedom he has to play his game.  It was not only his skills that made him a standout in juniors but also the way he played by instincts - Johnston used to say you can't teach that.

He hasn't been playing the same way here as he has been under Green.  In Utica, Green gave him free rein in the O-zone like in juniors where they "allowed him to do his thing" to use his expression.  In Utica he used the full width of the ice and was setting the tone on his line and making his linemates adjust their position to his as he was constantly changing lanes - it was a lot of weaving/criss-crossing.  He is just not as creative by staying on one side of the rink.  It might have to do with the comfort factor that WillieD mentioned?

Side note each time he gets compared to Raymond or Vey I can't help but smile because I just can't imagine Brent Sutter using "he's got a phenomenal gift" (his words) to describe them.  Or RyJo sitting on the bench and going wow watching them play (his expression).  Pouliot earlier this year was saying that he can do some things on the ice that no one else could...

[The Lock]

I can't seem to get a read on where he stands with the Canucks - and how much freedom he has to play his game.  It was not only his skills that made him a standout in juniors but also the way he played by instincts - Johnston used to say you can't teach that.

He hasn't been playing the same way here as he has been under Green.  In Utica, Green gave him free rein in the O-zone like in juniors where they "allowed him to do his thing" to use his expression.  In Utica he used the full width of the ice and was setting the tone on his line and making his linemates adjust their position to his as he was constantly changing lanes - it was a lot of weaving/criss-crossing.  He is just not as creative by staying on one side of the rink.  It might have to do with the comfort factor that WillieD mentioned?

Side note each time he gets compared to Raymond or Vey I can't help but smile because I just can't imagine Brent Sutter using "he's got a phenomenal gift" (his words) to describe them.  Or RyJo sitting on the bench and going wow watching them play (his expression).  Pouliot earlier this year was saying that he can do some things on the ice that no one else could...

I think the reality is that, with the stuff you can do on the ice as a skilled player, you can't do that stuff as effectively in the NHL. There are so many players who have done well at the AHL level, only to have problems in the NHL when they find out their fancy deke doesn't work on Zdeno Chara.

Sure. There are going to be the standout exceptions to this rule; however, if it were easy, we'd see a lot more players competing for that rookie title each year.

[DownUndaCanuck]

Baertschi has given life to two players who have struggled early in the season. I think he's bringing some of Vbrata's offence and even Horvat's out. That line has a bit of everything - youth, experience, speed/skill and size. That's how you build a successful line in today's NHL and these guys are looking good out there so we shouldn't touch them.

Don't know what Baertschi needs to do to get more ice-time though. He's been one of if not our most productive forward in terms of points-per-minutes and is getting more and more dangerous every game. I think with guys like these you have to try and build their confidence by playing them more as opposed to benching them because there's still a lot of untapped potential there. We could have a 40-50 point player in Baertschi if we groom him right, hopefully WD knows how to do it with this guy.

[mll]

I think the reality is that, with the stuff you can do on the ice as a skilled player, you can't do that stuff as effectively in the NHL. There are so many players who have done well at the AHL level, only to have problems in the NHL when they find out their fancy deke doesn't work on Zdeno Chara.

Sure. There are going to be the standout exceptions to this rule; however, if it were easy, we'd see a lot more players competing for that rookie title each year.

Not really talking about fancy dekes but more about generating offence by being creative - it's his unpredictability that made him a threat under Green.

[granpappy]

baertsch is sure one slick passer.  when he gains a little more confidence in both himself and the coach and carries the puck more and kicks his stride into second gear, we will hopefully see the next dimension of his game. 

[The Lock]

Not really talking about fancy dekes but more about generating offence by being creative - it's his unpredictability that made him a threat under Green.

That's what I mean though. You have a different breed of defenders you have to throw off suddenly. The NHL is not the AHL and, if you ask most players, they will tell you the step up from the AHL to the NHL is not small.

Just look at McDavid's game (at least the few games he was able to play before injury). In the first couple of games he tried moves he'd do in the CHL and found they didn't work. It took him a bit to figure out the defense a little more and even he has had to make adjustments to his game as a result.

[Crabcakes]

That's what I mean though. You have a different breed of defenders you have to throw off suddenly. The NHL is not the AHL and, if you ask most players, they will tell you the step up from the AHL to the NHL is not small.

Just look at McDavid's game (at least the few games he was able to play before injury). In the first couple of games he tried moves he'd do in the CHL and found they didn't work. It took him a bit to figure out the defense a little more and even he has had to make adjustments to his game as a result.

The last couple of games Baer has been going to the net.  Is he watching McCann do the same and not get decapitated?  I think he realized that he could do that and now he's finding success.

[The Lock]

The last couple of games Baer has been going to the net.  Is he watching McCann do the same and not get decapitated?  I think he realized that he could do that and now he's finding success.

It would be cool if he does start to get that confidence finally.

[mll]

That's what I mean though. You have a different breed of defenders you have to throw off suddenly. The NHL is not the AHL and, if you ask most players, they will tell you the step up from the AHL to the NHL is not small.

Just look at McDavid's game (at least the few games he was able to play before injury). In the first couple of games he tried moves he'd do in the CHL and found they didn't work. It took him a bit to figure out the defense a little more and even he has had to make adjustments to his game as a result.

I definitely agree with you on that - part of figuring things will be about daring to try to find out what moves work and which don't.  My point is not about the moves - but more about how much freedom does he have within the system to use the full rink like he has under Green.  You seem to suggest that it's dependent on him solving the D equation first before he can get back to his creative self and venture more out of his lane and I wonder how much is systems related.