WD is out of his depth

[ShakyWalton]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

Didn't he only have one kid last year?  He's got four now, and he seems a bit lost how to use them. IMO.

Well, he had Kenins along with Horvat..both rookies but they played well together..the kids have to learn from their mistakes...but they have to play to make mistakes...catch 22.

[Alflives]

32 minutes ago, ShakyWalton said:

Well, he had Kenins along with Horvat..both rookies but they played well together..the kids have to learn from their mistakes...but they have to play to make mistakes...catch 22.

That's a really good post.  Maybe ?WD is doing the best possible job, considering the circumstance?

[Madwolf]

I'm certainly not against Willy at the moment, but I'm not as high on him as I was to end the year last year. My frustration with him largely seems to be that he can't settle on his lines, which I believe has hurt our chemistry.

 

That being said, this last road stretch was pretty much a taste of reality for the Franchise, and what we expected this year. The consensus was that we'd be just out of the playoff race, and that Miller would regress coming back from an injury. That has certainly come to fruition lately.

I don't know that anyone would have predicted us carrying Virtanen, McCann, and Hutton coming out of the draft, and I think it got us all very excited, especially when it was working early on.  It could have very well been a double edged sword though. Rookies, and the 2nd year guys like Baertschi and Horvat are still prone to mistakes and the youngest aren't use to playing games at this pace. I think that's part of the reason why everything caught up to us on the road. It's why we can't finish games.

Other than that we've been the victim of some bad luck. Markstrom starting off injured made us play Miller more than we would have liked, and Sbisa's injury certainly didn't help the D. And of course Vrby and Hammer are off to bad starts which isn't helping anything. Oh and don't forget Sutter, one of our surprises this year.

 

I don't think Willie is anywhere near on the hot-seat yet, which is a good thing. You don't get good coaches in here in the future if you throw everyone off the horse at the first sign of high water.

[samurai]

this team is trending down which is what you expect with a rebuild.  Doesn't matter how good of a coach you are you don't have much control over a team's winning when other teams are just better because of the players they have.   Willie is not the reason we were bounced from the playoffs nor the record we have.  

 

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

11 hours ago, DeNiro said:

The problem isn't losing in my mind, it's the way we're losing. Shortening the bench in the third and putting all the pressure on the Sedins to try and get the go ahead or tying goal. We've seen that story too many times.

If we're going to develop young players, at least let them be part of key situations in games. The only way for them to learn is to fail. If they're gonna be in the NHL they can't shelter them forever. Giving them one shift in the third gives them no opportunity to make an impact at the end of games.

Why cant they all be Hutton's ?  lol  but seriously I totally agree.  Maybe Willie is being pressured to play the rookies a certain way ? Just speculating here but i does seem really odd that he plays McCann all freakin game only to bench his ass mostly in the third ? 

Still behind Willie,  I see a good coach with let's say not the best palate of colors to paint his picture with.

[Crabcakes]

5 minutes ago, Mr.DirtyDangles said:

Why cant they all be Hutton's ?  lol  but seriously I totally agree.  Maybe Willie is being pressured to play the rookies a certain way ? Just speculating here but i does seem really odd that he plays McCann all freakin game only to bench his ass mostly in the third ? 

Still behind Willie,  I see a good coach with let's say not the best palate of colors to paint his picture with.

Pressure?  They don't micro manage but in early meetings, 2 goals are made clear:

1. Make the playoffs, be competitive.  This is important to the development of young players.  They need to play in games that are truly meaningful to both teams.
2. Introduce new players.  Get younger, get faster.

The problem is that these goals are at cross purposes.  This season, there are more young players than last season so they are not being as successful.  It's not Willies fault.  It's the strategy.  This is what they're going with and it means getting worse before getting better even if they are trying to win.  How will this work out?  I think that it will be ok because the older players are showing the younger ones what it takes to be a pro.  This year and next year are not going to be great.  The year after (2 years from now) we will see improvement imo.

Is there a better strategy?  I think that what ever way you slice it, they will get worse before they get better.  The hope is that the down period is as short in duration as possible.

[smokes]

11 hours ago, Bo.Horvat53 said:

Vey is in the minors because he isn't good enough for the NHL, not because WD didn't want him. Benning didn't want a slouch on this team. How is he his boy? Well, look at our rookies this season, were they handed anything to them? Such as 1st line PP time like a certain #7 last year? Don't think so. They would have to be from Medicine Hat... you know the connection there don't you?

He wasn't on the PP1 line all year, he was slotted there for a bunch of games, and that was later in the season. If Benning did not want a slouch on his tea then why did he trade for Vey in the first place? You honestly think WD said I want Vey and Benning ran out and got him? Knowing Benning, if he did not think Vey was worth the gamble, he would not have made the trade. Just because Vey played for WD in Medicine Hat merely means they are familiar with him. Connections don't really mean much. Was Higgins or Weiss Tort's boys because they played for him on the Rangers? 

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

11 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

Pressure?  They don't micro manage but in early meetings, 2 goals are made clear:

1. Make the playoffs, be competitive.  This is important to the development of young players.  They need to play in games that are truly meaningful to both teams.
2. Introduce new players.  Get younger, get faster.

The problem is that these goals are at cross purposes.  This season, there are more young players than last season so they are not being as successful.  It's not Willies fault.  It's the strategy.  This is what they're going with and it means getting worse before getting better even if they are trying to win.  How will this work out?  I think that it will be ok because the older players are showing the younger ones what it takes to be a pro.  This year and next year are not going to be great.  The year after (2 years from now) we will see improvement imo.

Is there a better strategy?  I think that what ever way you slice it, they will get worse before they get better.  The hope is that the down period is as short in duration as possible.

I completely agree Crab.  The young guns growth hinges hugely on how they respond to situations on and off the ice. The locker room is their proverbial sponge where they can soak up knowledge about the entire process of becoming a productive NHL player.

Sure many want the core guys shipped out asap but these young players have developed bonds and are learning valuable aspects of the game from  them. I know people will point out only the negatives of what the core is doing now but there has to be a gradual transition or we will just be bottom feeders for years.

I think too many want superstars created over night. The slow introduction of the new blood is not going to be as smooth as people think. The 2 year window is a very rational expectation in my mind.  Fans need to brace themselves as we will definitely get worse before we get better.

[hearditall]

1 hour ago, Mr.DirtyDangles said:

I completely agree Crab.  The young guns growth hinges hugely on how they respond to situations on and off the ice. The locker room is their proverbial sponge where they can soak up knowledge about the entire process of becoming a productive NHL player.

Sure many want the core guys shipped out asap but these young players have developed bonds and are learning valuable aspects of the game from  them. I know people will point out only the negatives of what the core is doing now but there has to be a gradual transition or we will just be bottom feeders for years.

I think too many want superstars created over night. The slow introduction of the new blood is not going to be as smooth as people think. The 2 year window is a very rational expectation in my mind.  Fans need to brace themselves as we will definitely get worse before we get better.

Some can't see past tonight's game....It takes years to develop these young kids not 20 games.

Can't judge TL or JB for atleast 3-4 years from now. Lets see how good McCann, Virtanen, Hutton, Horvat, Shink, Gaunce, develop & the likes of Demko, Boeser, Brisbois, Tryamkin, etc. come along + the 2016/17 Drafts. 
If Benning can find players like McCann, Boeser, Demko's with later 1st & 2nd round picks in his first year at the draft table then I feel we're in really good hands in the near & far future. 

JB didn't come in to take us to the cup in his first few years. He was brought in to bring new young talent & develop them with some very good vets around to help them be hard working professionals. (Dorsett, Sedins, Prust, Hamhuis, Burrows, Hansen, etc.) His expertise in scouting & drafting is the main reason JB is here. And that takes a few years atleast for the puzzle to come together with the young. 

If he was trading away drafts & trying to add more vets to be competitive than we would have a serious problem here. But fortunately he is building for the future not the moment. Hopefully more fans can be more realistic & see the bigger picture here.

[Dr. Crossbar]

On 19/11/2015, 16:59:04, lmm said:

I agree with what you say up until the last paragraph.  If the salary cap has taught us anything it is that there are about 5 GMs and about 5 coaches that are better than the rest.  2 of each have won 5/6 last cups

would you be against firing Willie if we could replace him with Babcock or Quenneville?

Changing coaches, just like changing players is only useful when you make an upgrade.

When you switch Isbister for Pyatt for Bernier for Oreskovich for Boothe for  Mathias you are not upgrading.

the same is true for coaches, just ask an Oiler fan.

 

Well, my point is that I don't think it matters if we had Babcock or Quenneville, the result would still be the same even if we hired them tomorrow since we've already been through three coaches. That alone proves to me the issues go beyond the coach to the players.

Get what you're saying about the upgrade though. Would I want Babcock or Quenneville? Sure. I'd love to have Quenneville especially but the organization has already made themselves look bad by hiring and firing a coach in a year in dramatic fashion. After Torts, the right thing to do is give Willie every chance to succeed. Professionally, we have to let him upgrade himself and see if he can. Hopefully he does what AV did with more time.

But just read this in the Vancouver Courier that the players had a team meeting without Willie after the Jets, who had this to say, which points to what I was saying ... the players have to find a way to win beyond the coach.

"The players had a bit of a meeting after I left the dressing room after the game in Winnipeg, and I think they all know that we're not a long ways away. We're close, but close doesn't get you many points. They know that we have to find a way."

http://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/the-canucks-had-a-players-only-meeting-and-they-didn-t-even-invite-the-coach-1.2116508#.dpuf

[Crabcakes]

9 hours ago, hearditall said:

Some can't see past tonight's game....It takes years to develop these young kids not 20 games.

Can't judge TL or JB for atleast 3-4 years from now. Lets see how good McCann, Virtanen, Hutton, Horvat, Shink, Gaunce, develop & the likes of Demko, Boeser, Brisbois, Tryamkin, etc. come along + the 2016/17 Drafts. 
If Benning can find players like McCann, Boeser, Demko's with later 1st & 2nd round picks in his first year at the draft table then I feel we're in really good hands in the near & far future. 

JB didn't come in to take us to the cup in his first few years. He was brought in to bring new young talent & develop them with some very good vets around to help them be hard working professionals. (Dorsett, Sedins, Prust, Hamhuis, Burrows, Hansen, etc.) His expertise in scouting & drafting is the main reason JB is here. And that takes a few years atleast for the puzzle to come together with the young. 

If he was trading away drafts & trying to add more vets to be competitive than we would have a serious problem here. But fortunately he is building for the future not the moment. Hopefully more fans can be more realistic & see the bigger picture here.

This is what we should really be worrying about.  There are no shortcuts to building a team.  Benning is doing it the right way and this is what really matters.

Bringing out the microscope and wringing our hands over the small stuff is just exhausting and unnecessary.

[samurai]

Again we have a statistical fact that coaches over the long haul don't have much on the outcome of how successful a team is.  There are just too many other variables in play.   That is the biggest reason why they are so regularly fired, because is the short term you get a boost but overall the long coaches have very limited impact .

[DIBdaQUIB]

2 hours ago, samurai said:

Again we have a statistical fact that coaches over the long haul don't have much on the outcome of how successful a team is.  There are just too many other variables in play.   That is the biggest reason why they are so regularly fired, because is the short term you get a boost but overall the long coaches have very limited impact .

I don't know...watching how the Leafs are starting to play under Babcock - and I don't just mean stats- I think a really good coach can get players to up their compete and impact level.  I'm not saying WD can't do that but this team seems to be regressing the more they play together not improving. 

[WHL rocks]

Coach Q bending Willy over the lap and spanking him tonight.  WD is completely outclassed. Coach Q has gotten out his line matches at will against Willy.   Penarin, Anisimov, Kane line out against McCann over and over. Coach Q is doing all this on the road when Willy has last change, easy to get confused and think the game is being played in Chicago. Almost embarrassing to watch.

I don't see WD coming back next year. Either JB hires new coach or promotes Green from Utica. No way he extends Willy. Next year is Willy's last year of contract so it'll be right time to make a change this summer, that's if he lasts till summer. 

[hearditall]

9 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

This is what we should really be worrying about.  There are no shortcuts to building a team.  Benning is doing it the right way and this is what really matters.

Bringing out the microscope and wringing out hands over the small stuff is just exhausting and unnecessary.

WD RITE!!!

[hearditall]

Sedins are MAGICIANS Period......

[samurai]

7 hours ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

I don't know...watching how the Leafs are starting to play under Babcock - and I don't just mean stats- I think a really good coach can get players to up their compete and impact level.  I'm not saying WD can't do that but this team seems to be regressing the more they play together not improving. 

Well they lost tonight, Reimer has been exceptional, but overall they are still down near the middle to bottom.  Last year they were horrible - had a massive losing streak.  So anything compared to last year will be better. Over the long haul they have better hockey men running the ship, but that is no guarantee a cup will be won in the near future.  Would be a miracle for the leafs to win a cup in the next 4 years.  

[hearditall]

On 17/11/2015, 22:30:36, hearditall said:

Who's to say that the next 6 overtimes the Sedins win it for them....

 

[King Heffy]

I like WD but he simply HAS to stop putting Weber in the lineup.  We have Pedan, Biega down in the AHL who are clearly better than a scrub who simply can't play defense.  If WD isn't up for the task, Benning needs to force his hand and either waive Weber or fire WD.  We already dealt with this under AV.

[lmm]

On ‎21‎/‎11‎/‎2015‎ ‎12‎:‎50‎:‎27‎, Dr. Crossbar said:

Well, my point is that I don't think it matters if we had Babcock or Quenneville, the result would still be the same even if we hired them tomorrow since we've already been through three coaches. That alone proves to me the issues go beyond the coach to the players.

Get what you're saying about the upgrade though. Would I want Babcock or Quenneville? Sure. I'd love to have Quenneville especially but the organization has already made themselves look bad by hiring and firing a coach in a year in dramatic fashion. After Torts, the right thing to do is give Willie every chance to succeed. Professionally, we have to let him upgrade himself and see if he can. Hopefully he does what AV did with more time.

But just read this in the Vancouver Courier that the players had a team meeting without Willie after the Jets, who had this to say, which points to what I was saying ... the players have to find a way to win beyond the coach.

"The players had a bit of a meeting after I left the dressing room after the game in Winnipeg, and I think they all know that we're not a long ways away. We're close, but close doesn't get you many points. They know that we have to find a way."

http://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/the-canucks-had-a-players-only-meeting-and-they-didn-t-even-invite-the-coach-1.2116508#.dpuf

 

Again I agree with you, except for the first line this time.

I agree the Canucks are not in a position to Fire and Hire another coach at this time.

And I am not arguing for Willie to be fired, but this thread is about whether Willie is in over his head, and I think he may be.

When looking at the Canuck coaching situation, they have gone from respected, award winning, immediately re-employed coach with an experienced assistant, to a maniac who many are surprised to have found another NHL offer, to an NHL rookie with a rookie D-coach.

What I am not concerned about is whether coach Q out-coaches Willie.  What I am concerned about is whether the veteran leadership is willing to buy into or even understanding Willie's system.  I am having trouble understanding his system from way over here. While Hank n Dank speak with respect, ( they were even polite to Tortes in Columbus last week) they are the senior guys almost in the whole organization.  They have outlasted several coaches and management teams. They will always say the right thing, but the fact they had a meeting (which has been done before) and then go out a single (double) handedly win the next game does not say a whole lot in favor of Willie's control of this team. The Sedins can win half a dozen games a year like they did against Chicago, and they can do that with any coach. But it was the Sedins who gave the winning goal away in Buffalo and Burrows whiffed on Kane for the tying goal on Saturday night. These are the kinds of mistakes you hope Willie is teaching the kids not to repeat, but they are coming from the vets.

Add to that that the D looks like a fire drill most nights and one needs to ask whether Lidster has a solid enough plan and if he can communicate it to a veteran D carrying only 1 rookie.

 Maybe Willie will figure it out like AV did, but in terms of NHL experience, Willie is still in Montreal. AV took a long road in pro hockey before he got his gig in Vancouver.