NBA Discussion

[Monty]

23 hours ago, c00kies said:

If there was one last shot to win a game, I would want the ball in MJ's hands.

At the end of the day, that's what it comes down to. And nobody who is saying that MJ is better is saying that Lebron sucks, just that in their opinoin, MJ is better. Having watched both their respective careers, again in my opinion, there is no other player when MJ was playing where I'd want anyone else taking that shot. In the last 10-15 years, there are arguably 3-5 other players other than Lebron I'd be just as comfortable taking the last shot over him. Off the top of my head, I'd be equally as comfortable with Leonard, Curry, or Kobe. Again, not that Lebron is bad, but as you mentioned, the gap between Lebron and the rest of the talent in the league is not nearly as nearly as big as it was when MJ was playing. That's not to say MJ played with or against shlubs, just shows how dominant MJ really was.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Monty

[shiznak]

6 hours ago, Sikhguy23 said:

I am! You realize the point of this documentary heck any documentary about any player is to show them with no faults, and hype them up. What did the beginning of the documentary prove? Jordan couldn't do it on his own. Jordan couldn't beat prime magic prime Isiah prime bird on his OWN. He didn't get his first 3 peat until you guessed it he got some help. Trade for Pippen, and a couple other trades. Got one of the greatest basketball minds to come coach. Arguably the 2 greatest players in the NBA at that time ( other players words) were on the same team, no $&!# they ripped the NBA apart. There is a lot more talent in the NBA today compared to back then, and the shut down defenders each team has, or how much more physically gifted the teams are nowadays..... The overall league talent level isn't even a comparison

Neither can Lebron. What’s your point?
 

The fact that you think Pippen was traded to the Bulls to help Jordan win a Championship confirms you know nothing about the Bulls history. Yes, he was traded to the Bulls........at the draft where the Bulls and Sonics swapped picks. So, Pippen was already there at the beginning prior to the Bulls’ 3-peat. Jordan and Pippen were a two head monster for the Bulls. Chicago was not a super team by all means. After Jordan and Pippen, the next leading scorer never averaged more than 14 points in their two 3-peats. Everyone else pretty much averaged less than 10 points per game.
 

Pippen was a star in his era, but he wasn’t an elite superstar. I wouldn’t even put him in the top 10 players in his era. He would probably be the equivalent to someone like Jimmy Butler in today’s game. Excellent defender, just above average scorer. Pippen also wouldn’t be the player he was if it weren’t for Jordan pushing him (his quote, not mine). So, in theory Pippen needed Jordan, just as much as Jordan needed Pippen to win all those Championships. 

 

[Sikhguy23]

16 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Neither can Lebron. What’s your point?
 

The fact that you think Pippen was traded to the Bulls to help Jordan win a Championship confirms you know nothing about the Bulls history. Yes, he was traded to the Bulls........at the draft where the Bulls and Sonics swapped picks. So, Pippen was already there at the beginning prior to the Bulls’ 3-peat. Jordan and Pippen were a two head monster for the Bulls. Chicago was not a super team by all means. After Jordan and Pippen, the next leading scorer never averaged more than 14 points in their two 3-peats. Everyone else pretty much averaged less than 10 points per game.
 

Pippen was a star in his era, but he wasn’t an elite superstar. I wouldn’t even put him in the top 10 players in his era. He would probably be the equivalent to someone like Jimmy Butler in today’s game. Excellent defender, just above average scorer. Pippen also wouldn’t be the player he was if it weren’t for Jordan pushing him (his quote, not mine). So, in theory Pippen needed Jordan, just as much as Jordan needed Pippen to win all those Championships. 

 

My point is all you old people keep Jordan on this pinnacle, thinking he did every thing by himself. You guys are the first to blame Lebron for needing help, yet completely overlook the fact that Jordan needed that same help. Basketball is a team sport, one player cannot carry a team by himself to the championship, supporting casts are needed... look no further then the 07 Cavs. Spurs locked up Lebron and were daring anyone else to score the ball.

 

I don't think you grasp what I am saying when I bring up pippen being traded to the bulls. My point is before he got there, Jordan wasn't doing much in the playoffs ( a couple first round losses??). Jordan was the scorer, but Pippen was doing nearly everything else for those teams statistically, pretty sure he was taking the big defensive assignments as well alongside Jordan. Weren't they still the number one seed in the east when Jordan retired?? 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

6 hours ago, c00kies said:

If there was one last shot to win a game, I would want the ball in MJ's hands.

True. 
 

But Pat Riley also said:

 

If I could pick one player to take the last shot to win a game....it would be Michael Jordan.....but if my life was on the line, I’d want Larry Bird to take that shot.

[shiznak]

40 minutes ago, Sikhguy23 said:

My point is all you old people keep Jordan on this pinnacle, thinking he did every thing by himself. You guys are the first to blame Lebron for needing help, yet completely overlook the fact that Jordan needed that same help. Basketball is a team sport, one player cannot carry a team by himself to the championship, supporting casts are needed... look no further then the 07 Cavs. Spurs locked up Lebron and were daring anyone else to score the ball.

 

I don't think you grasp what I am saying when I bring up pippen being traded to the bulls. My point is before he got there, Jordan wasn't doing much in the playoffs ( a couple first round losses??). Jordan was the scorer, but Pippen was doing nearly everything else for those teams statistically, pretty sure he was taking the big defensive assignments as well alongside Jordan. Weren't they still the number one seed in the east when Jordan retired?? 

Do you realize that in Jordan’s first 4 years with the Bulls, they weren’t even that good? Yet, Jordan still managed to get them into the playoffs. The Bulls were the 7th/8th teams facing the top seeded teams like the Bucks, who were a defensive juggernaut. The Celtics who had 5 Hall of Famers as their starting 5 and the big bad Pistons teams, who could have gotten away with murder on the court. Michael was also averaging 35 points in those first four seasons in the playoffs. He was literally the Bulls only offensive player. Whereas, LeBron couldn’t even get the Cavs into the playoffs until his 4th season with the team. When they were apart of the top seeded teams feasting on the lower seeds.

Edited May 21, 2020 by shiznak

[Sikhguy23]

3 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Do you realize that in Jordan’s first 4 years with the Bulls, they weren’t even that good? Yet, Jordan still managed to get them into the playoffs. The Bulls were the 7th/8th teams facing the top seeded teams like the Bucks, who were a defensive juggernaut. The Celtics who had 5 Hall of Famers as their starting 5 and the big bad Pistons teams, who could have gotten away with murder on the court. Michael was also averaging 35 points in those first four season in the playoffs. He was literally the Bulls only offensive player. LeBron couldn’t even get the Cavs into the playoffs until his 4th season with the team.

Lol talking about lack of a team. Go look at the Cavs before lebron got there. They went from 18-35 wins in his first year..... Pretty sure it was Lebron's 3rd year when they made it, what were they doing before he got there? absolutely nothing. Lebron went up against a prime arenas, and jamison as a 21 year old? Look at his averages back then. I can do this all day, theres no point to this argument. You're not going to convince me of anything, and I'm not going to convince you of anything. And you bringing up those legendary teams is fair, but it also proves my point that Jordan couldn't get it done on his own, like some of you old heads would like the world to believe. 

[Toews]

55 minutes ago, Sikhguy23 said:

My point is all you old people keep Jordan on this pinnacle, thinking he did every thing by himself. You guys are the first to blame Lebron for needing help, yet completely overlook the fact that Jordan needed that same help. Basketball is a team sport, one player cannot carry a team by himself to the championship, supporting casts are needed... look no further then the 07 Cavs. Spurs locked up Lebron and were daring anyone else to score the ball.

 

I don't think you grasp what I am saying when I bring up pippen being traded to the bulls. My point is before he got there, Jordan wasn't doing much in the playoffs ( a couple first round losses??). Jordan was the scorer, but Pippen was doing nearly everything else for those teams statistically, pretty sure he was taking the big defensive assignments as well alongside Jordan. Weren't they still the number one seed in the east when Jordan retired?? 

Why were they able to lock up LeChina? Why was LeChina outplayed by Jason Terry in the 2011 Finals when he had teamed up a top 3 SG all time and an all NBA PF after promising not 1...not 2...but 7 championships? Your guy just has more chinks in his armour, I remember MJ in victory and in defeat shredding defences. I have seen first hand LeChina get "locked up". MJ was just a ticking time bomb, you could stave him off but that bomb was going to go off eventually. I just don't see the flaws in MJ that I see in LeChina. Late game free throws are another big one. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Toews

[Sikhguy23]

11 minutes ago, Toews said:

Why were they able to lock up LeChina? Why was LeChina outplayed by Jason Terry in the 2011 Finals when he had teamed up a top 3 SG all time and an all NBA PF after promising not 1...not 2...but 7 championships? Your guy just has more chinks in his armour, I remember MJ in victory and in defeat shredding defences. I have seen first hand LeChina get "locked up". MJ was just a ticking time bomb, you could stave him off but that bomb was going to go off eventually. I just don't see the flaws in MJ that I see in LeChina. Late game free throws are another big one. 

I dont think avging 22 is being locked up. You must be one of those fans that watches, but hasn't played ball a day in his life. Locked up in the sense crowd the paint, and make him shoot, or have someone else on the team create a shot for them. I have repeatedly said the 2011 finals is the one finals loss he should be accountable for. Jordan wasn't a ticking time bomb in his early years, what is it 1-9 in the playoffs before Pippen got there. He was a ticking time bomb, once he got others on the team that could do everything else on the court, so he could focus on the scoring. Lebron has never had that luxury 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Sikhguy23

[shiznak]

21 minutes ago, Sikhguy23 said:

Lol talking about lack of a team. Go look at the Cavs before lebron got there. They went from 18-35 wins in his first year..... Pretty sure it was Lebron's 3rd year when they made it, what were they doing before he got there? absolutely nothing. Lebron went up against a prime arenas, and jamison as a 21 year old? Look at his averages back then. I can do this all day, theres no point to this argument. You're not going to convince me of anything, and I'm not going to convince you of anything. And you bringing up those legendary teams is fair, but it also proves my point that Jordan couldn't get it done on his own, like some of you old heads would like the world to believe. 

In reality, no one could do it on their own when facing a superior team. Kobe couldn’t do it. Shaq couldn’t do it. Durant, Barkley, Pierce, list goes on. The argument wasn’t even that about, anyways. I posted a video proving why MJ is better than LeBron. You came in defense of LeBron saying........MJ couldn’t do it on his own, but ignore the other parts of the video where it shows both statistics and analytically why MJ is better than LeBron.

MJ has the achievements and statistics over LeBron to back it up. Thus why people consider him better than LeBron.

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by shiznak

[Toews]

14 minutes ago, Sikhguy23 said:

I dont think avging 22 is being locked up. You must be one of those fans that watches, but hasn't played ball a day in his life. Locked up in the sense crowd the paint, and make him shoot, or have someone else on the team create a shot for them. I have repeatedly said the 2011 finals is the one finals loss he should be accountable for. Jordan wasn't a ticking time bomb in his early years, what is it 1-9 in the playoffs before Pippen got there. He was a ticking time bomb, once he got others on the team that could do everything else on the court, so he could focus on the scoring. Lebron has never had that luxury 

Lmao what does my basketball prowess have to be with my argument? Honestly how defensive and insecure you get in this argument just tells me even you don't quite believe what you are selling. 

 

Nope, Jordan was shredding defences long before Pippen even got there. He wasn't winning at a high clip I will give you that but he was a dominant player with little to no flaws to his game.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Toews

[HI5]

Everyone always talks about Mamba Mentality and only other basketball player I’ve seen with that killer instinct mentality is Jordan. 
 

I kind of wish this documentary was released right before NBA playoffs started, cause you know this has players motivated.

[Van40]

I see some blatant lying going on...

 

Pippen was easily a top 8 player of the 90s

 

Made 7 All-NBA teams (3 consecutive first teams honors) 

9 All-NBA Defensive teams

Led the Bulls to 55 wins and finished 3rd in MVP voting in the 1994

 

He sacrificed stats to play along MJ and win. Big chemistry guy too. Pippen was the most beloved teammate. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Van40

[Van40]

3 hours ago, shiznak said:

Do you realize that in Jordan’s first 4 years with the Bulls, they weren’t even that good? Yet, Jordan still managed to get them into the playoffs. 

The team wasn't even 500. his first 3 years

 

38-44 (rookie season)

30-52 (missed 64 games)

40-42 

 

 

[Phil_314]

https://www.tsn.ca/paul-pierce-lebron-james-isn-t-a-top-5-player-of-all-time-1.1477537

 

Quote

Former NBA star Paul Pierce doesn’t think LeBron James is one of the top five best players to ever play in the NBA.

Appearing on ESPN recently, Pierce, who is now an analyst for the network, left James off his list of top five players in favor of Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Magic Johnson and the late Kobe Bryant.

Pierce credits the players in his top five, for in his opinion, helping to build up their respective teams from where they previously were, or for continuing to carry out a tradition of winning that preceded them. The former Boston Celtics great said James hasn’t done either of these things.

"We haven’t seen that from LeBron [James], Pierce said." "He went and put together a team in Miami. He came back to Cleveland [Cavaliers] to put that team together. And then he went to the Lakers, where a tradition has already been made, and that’s still to be continued. So in saying that, that’s my argument."

Before the NBA suspended its season due to the coronavirus pandemic, James was widely considered to be among the leading candidates to win the MVP award. The 17-year veteran has won the award four times in his career.

 

[Sikhguy23]

3 minutes ago, Phil_314 said:

https://www.tsn.ca/paul-pierce-lebron-james-isn-t-a-top-5-player-of-all-time-1.1477537

 

 

That is why Paul Pierce is a clown.... dude talks out of his ass half the time. I guess now it makes sense why he had to leave that game on a wheelchair, idiot.

3 hours ago, Toews said:

Lmao what does my basketball prowess have to be with my argument? Honestly how defensive and insecure you get in this argument just tells me even you don't quite believe what you are selling. 

 

Nope, Jordan was shredding defences long before Pippen even got there. He wasn't winning at a high clip I will give you that but he was a dominant player with little to no flaws to his game.

I mean he probably had some flaws in his game, if he wasn't able to win until Pippen amongst others got there.. Isn't that how this works? if you don't win a chip you suck? I feel like that's what you bring up a lot when it comes to Lebron. When in fact the only finals loss he should get the blame for is Dallas.

[shiznak]

5 hours ago, Van40 said:

I see some blatant lying going on...

 

Pippen was easily a top 8 player of the 90s

 

Made 7 All-NBA teams (3 consecutive first teams honors) 

9 All-NBA Defensive teams

Led the Bulls to 55 wins and finished 3rd in MVP voting in the 1994

 

He sacrificed stats to play along MJ and win. Big chemistry guy too. Pippen was the most beloved teammate. 

Debatable.

 

Jordan, Olajuwon, Robinson, Shaq, Barkley, Drexler, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Miller, Wilkins. IMO, were a tier above Pippen.

[Toews]

9 hours ago, Sikhguy23 said:

That is why Paul Pierce is a clown.... dude talks out of his ass half the time. I guess now it makes sense why he had to leave that game on a wheelchair, idiot.

Right just yesterday you were dismissing my opinion by questioning whether I had played the game. Now someone who has played the game at a high level gives his opinion and you have to call him names like "clown" & "idiot" etc. I don't think I need to explain to you what hypocrisy is. Usually people are this oblivious to their own hypocrisy when they are being emotional. 

 

And its all because he didn't put your favourite player in his top 5, which to me is far more reasonable a take than putting LeChina at #1 like you and other LeChina fans are doing. Most reasonable basketball fans even ones who did not like Jordan put him ahead of LeChina. The only ones who don't are usually just fanboying hard on LeChina, a lot of these fans are usually born after 1990 and tend to disrespect everything about the game and its history ticking off a lot of the older basketball fans.

 

You and your ilk want to dismiss and disrespect a lot of great players just so you can rank LeChina at 1. It comes across to me as insecure and insincere to me. I don't think even you believe that LeChina is better than Jordan, you are just in denial and are doubling down.

Quote

I mean he probably had some flaws in his game, if he wasn't able to win until Pippen amongst others got there.. Isn't that how this works? if you don't win a chip you suck? I feel like that's what you bring up a lot when it comes to Lebron. When in fact the only finals loss he should get the blame for is Dallas.

Like what? Talk about what was missing from Michael Jordan's game that wouldn't allow him to dominate in any era let alone the current soft NBA. I have given you my opinion on LeChina's weaknesses. You can only speak in platitudes.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Toews

[Sikhguy23]

1 hour ago, Toews said:

Right just yesterday you were dismissing my opinion by questioning whether I had played the game. Now someone who has played the game at a high level gives his opinion and you have to call him names like "clown" & "idiot" etc. I don't think I need to explain to you what hypocrisy is. Usually people are this oblivious to their own hypocrisy when they are being emotional. 

 

And its all because he didn't put your favourite player in his top 5, which to me is far more reasonable a take than putting LeChina at #1 like you and other LeChina fans are doing. Most reasonable basketball fans even ones who did not like Jordan put him ahead of LeChina. The only ones who don't are usually just fanboying hard on LeChina, a lot of these fans are usually born after 1990 and tend to disrespect everything about the game and its history ticking off a lot of the older basketball fans.

 

You and your ilk want to dismiss and disrespect a lot of great players just so you can rank LeChina at 1. It comes across to me as insecure and insincere to me. I don't think even you believe that LeChina is better than Jordan, you are just in denial and are doubling down.

Like what? Talk about what was missing from Michael Jordan's game that wouldn't allow him to dominate in any era let alone the current soft NBA. I have given you my opinion on LeChina's weaknesses. You can only speak in platitudes.

Log on to twitter and have a look at what the NBA world has to say about his statement yesterday; both analysts and fans alike. Based on your 2nd paragraph it sounds like you are being the emotional one. Heck you have to be keep calling someone LeChina instead of their actual name. Also Pierce ever since he became an "analyst", has been one of the laughing stocks of the NBA world with his increasingly stupid takes. Thinking he's a better shooter then Klay Thompson, better career then Wade, saying the Celtics will beat the bucks after game 1 last year then they ended up losing 4-1? That's why he is the laughing stock of NBA social media. Dude just likes saying stuff for the sake of it.

 

I can ask you the same thing why don't you think Lebron can dominate in every era. Stars from that same bad boy era have said Lebron would be an absolute freight train back in those days. Just a couple days ago Magic ranked Lebron 1 as most likely to be able to dominate in that era. A couple months ago the bad boy himself Lambeer said Lebron would thrive in that setting. You come across as hella insecure repeatedly calling him LeChina and Lechoke. Jordan was great, but he dominated in a hella water downed league once the greats retired. It's my opinion you dont have to get worked up over it, you have Jordan 1 I most likely when it is all said and done will have Lebron1 (he's 1b right now). 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Sikhguy23

[Van40]

11 hours ago, Phil_314 said:

https://www.tsn.ca/paul-pierce-lebron-james-isn-t-a-top-5-player-of-all-time-1.1477537

 

 

Pierce had LeBron top 5 just a few weeks ago 

 

He's just looking for attention

[Toews]

43 minutes ago, Sikhguy23 said:

Log on to twitter and have a look at what the NBA world has to say about his statement yesterday; both analysts and fans alike.

Don't have a twitter account. Wouldn't create one. Twitter is usually where the dumbest hot-takes are proliferated. I don't believe that Twitter is representative of public opinion either.

43 minutes ago, Sikhguy23 said:

Based on your 2nd paragraph it sounds like you are being the emotional one. Heck you have to be keep calling someone LeChina instead of their actual name. Also Pierce ever since he became an "analyst", has been one of the laughing stocks of the NBA world with his increasingly stupid takes. Thinking he's a better shooter then Klay Thompson, better career then Wade, saying the Celtics will beat the bucks after game 1 last year then they ended up losing 4-1? That's why he is the laughing stock of NBA social media. Dude just likes saying stuff for the sake of it.

How am I being emotional? You are the one calling a respectable basketball player a "clown and an "idiot", all because he doesn't put LeChina in his top 5. You have gotten personal more than once in this discussion and I have yet to insult you for your opinion. It just screams to me that you are insecure and don't even believe what you are saying. You got to get your jabs in because you can't even refute the arguments put forth against LeChina. They are just so open and shut, and at this point you just appear flustered and angry that you have got nothing cogent to defend LeChina with.

43 minutes ago, Sikhguy23 said:

I can ask you the same thing why don't you think Lebron can dominate in every era. Stars from that same bad boy era have said Lebron would be an absolute freight train back in those days. Just a couple days ago Magic ranked Lebron 1 as most likely to be able to dominate in that era. A couple months ago the bad boy himself Lambeer said Lebron would thrive in that setting. You come across as hella insecure repeatedly calling him LeChina and Lechoke. Jordan was great, but he dominated in a hella water downed league once the greats retired. It's my opinion you dont have to get worked up over it, you have Jordan 1 I most likely when it is all said and done will have Lebron1 (he's 1b right now). 

LeChina could not even dominate an old Dirk and Jason Terry, while having a superteam. You are just too much of a fan of LeChina to see the truth. Jordan in his prime could not be stopped period, he could be beaten but he was just as graceful in victory and in defeat.  

 

The only one worked up is you, my position is the consensus position of most basketball fans and people involved in the business. You've only got a few Twitter trolls who were but a twinkle in their father's eye when Jordan was in his heyday. 

 

He is LeChina until he stops spouting communist propaganda and admits that it wasn't Daryl Morey's comments that were ignorant but his own. But he won't because Nike pays him a lot of money and they have business interests in China, so its 'Shut up and dribble' for LeChina.