Veterans & Rookies Overall Play

[wallstreetamigo]

That is your opinion. Others have a different one.

I have enjoyed Sutter, Burr, Prust Hansen, Dorsett, Tanev, Sbisa, Bartowski and last night Biega and Higgin's play. The kids have been fine, Hutton outstanding but I don't watch them with rose tinted goggles like you obviously do. 

As for the insidious chipping away at the coaches reputation it wreaks of immaturity imo, but hey, we drove away an outstanding coach in AV, why not another one. Anything to help the attention span challenged.

We are 14 games into the season if you can only get excited by young players I suggest you go watch the juniors.

As for Willie, he has nothing he needs to prove at this stage of the season after his success, despite last year's injury ravaged nightmare.

As I said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Doesn't make mine wrong though.

It is not so much that I watch the young players any more or less than the vets. I just like the fire I see from those kids more than the apathetic play of our core vets for the 4th or 5th year in a row now.

I disagree on Desjardins (or any other coach). They ALWAYS have something to prove. And Desjardins has not yet cemented anything in terms of his ability to coach at the NHL level imo. The bottom line is that decisions he makes cost us games more often than they should considering it is the same mistakes over and over again in most cases. The players have to execute but the coach still needs to put them in the position to do so. The bottomless pit of trust for vet players is a real issue on this team and has been for years.

[DownUndaCanuck]

Pretty decent analysis Down Unda...Although,I would say that Vrbata has been more unlucky than terrible...As for Hutton,he just oozes poise and confidence (of course he going to make mistakes,this being his NHL rookie year),but why on earth would you send him to the AHL..?

Yeah Vbrata's been unlucky offensively but he's been lazy on the defensive side of the puck, as have the twins this year.

Ideally we'd have Hutton play a year in the AHL to smooth out those defensive cracks and get him playing with bigger adults, but we just don't have the depth to be able to do that. If he was on say the Blackhawks defence he'd be in the AHL for at least a season but we're rushing him and it hurts us occasionally when he makes a defensive mistake.

[BanTSN]

If on track means to a top three pick, then I'm happy.

There's no way this team is that bad.  We'll have to wait for a post-Sedin era to see about that, but the Canucks will likely be refreshed with new bodies by then anyway.

[Alflives]

There's no way this team is that bad.  We'll have to wait for a post-Sedin era to see about that, but the Canucks will likely be refreshed with new bodies by then anyway.

but will our new core be as good as those teams picking their core players from higher draft positions?  We will draft in the middle, and continue to finish in the middle.  

[Darius]

The latest update on some interesting stats.  Here are the canuck leaders in terms of points per 60 minutes played (with at least 10 games played)

1. McCann - 2.92
2. Baertschi -2.75
3. Daniel - 2.34
4. Jake - 2.04
5. Burrows - 2.04
...

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?reportType=season&report=skaterscoring&season=20152016&gameType=2&aggregate=0&teamId=23&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,10&pos=S

3 out of the top 4 are rookies who barely see PP time and have seen hardly an 3 on 3 time. WAKE UP WILLY!

Granted - the more you play them the more these stats will probably head south, but these numbers show that the kids have been pretty good when given the opportunity.  They play minimal minutes and hardly play in situations that are more likely to produce points like the PP or the 3 on 3 wide open shoot fest...

[BanTSN]

Points per minute stats are always skewed upwards when the minutes played are low.  But I noticed a lack of Henrik in the top 5 and McCann being at number 1.  It looks like the Canucks are focused on developing the youth and are giving them some nice offensive looks.

[Outsiders]

Vrbata and Hamhuis will be gone both 50% off. Both get us a 1st or (2nd + prospect)

[Ballisticsports.]

Points per minute stats are always skewed upwards when the minutes played are low.  But I noticed a lack of Henrik in the top 5 and McCann being at number 1.  It looks like the Canucks are focused on developing the youth and are giving them some nice offensive looks.

Don't you think them playing higher up in the line-up against better skilled opponents would lower their stats as well?

There is no way McCann is better than Henrik

[Darius]

 

 

Points per minute stats are always skewed upwards when the minutes played are low.  But I noticed a lack of Henrik in the top 5 and McCann being at number 1.  It looks like the Canucks are focused on developing the youth and are giving them some nice offensive looks.

I wonder how the numbers would look the other way - for instance if Hank was put on the fourth line and given 8 - 10 minutes per night, with no PP.  would his numbers be as high as McCann's are now?

 I think that some players need to be played consistently with lots of minutes to be able to get into a rhythm and produce.  Being sat out of a game every now and then, and then being sat out for long durations during the game (See Baertschi) puts the player at a disadvantage.

No doubt that Hank is a better hockey player than McCann right now, it goes to show that the numbers can be interpreted in different ways.

[Ghostsof1915]

The only thing I can figure out is Willie is on some serious pain killers and it's effecting his coaching. When he rolls 4 lines, he's fine. When he shortens his bench we lose. 

 

[Canucks-12]

I don't know how people have time to write all this. 

[dura_mater]

 

No team who finished last in the league in any year since the salary cap has won the Cup.  Most of them have missed the playoffs every year.

Chicago got lucky and won the draft lottery, moving up to pick 1st overall in a year that they picked up Kane .  Most of the productive players on their Cup winning teams were picked up MUCH later and in mid rounds or acquired outside the draft.  You don't have to suck to do that.

LA managed to turn late picks into players who they could then trade for assets.

How many cups have Edmonton, Buffalo, Florida, NYI, St. Louis won since they managed to be worst in the league?  How many years of missed playoffs have most of those team had.

Good teams stay good in this league and bad teams stay bad.  Your plan is to somehow magically become one of the very few exceptions to that rule?  You can't even take being 2nd in the division without having a freak out... just think about a decade of complete futility without a sniff at the playoffs. 

In the cap world you have to either get incredibly lucky or just draft well regardless of the position.  Players can get similar money whichever team they play for nowadays, so they decide to play for teams which give them a chance to win.  Being a sucky team means no UFAs unless you dramatically overpay.

You also have to somehow magically get better before your young players start coming off their ELC's because they will have had enough of losing that they will demand to be overpaid or demand out.  That turns into a revolving door where you lose players at the same pace you draft them.

No team who finished last in the league in any year since the salary cap has won the Cup.  Most of them have missed the playoffs every year.

You don't have to finish dead last to get a top pick. 

Most of the productive players on their Cup winning teams were picked up MUCH later and in mid rounds or acquired outside the draft.

Yes Chicago picked up Keith and Seabs later in the draft but Chicago doesn't win a single cup without Kane or Toews (both picked top 3).

How many cups have Edmonton, Buffalo, Florida, NYI, St. Louis won since they managed to be worst in the league?  How many years of missed playoffs have most of those team had.

How many cups has Edmonton won?  Time will tell.  Buffalo?  Is that the same Buffalo that drafted 2nd overall last year?  I wasn't aware you could win the cup in less than a full NHL season after a draft.  Florida hasn't had enough time but they will be a force to be reckoned with.  NYI has a franchise number 1 centre in Tavares and I think they're pretty happy.  As for St Louis, am I missing something?  When did they ever suck? 

Chicago didn't win a cup the year after drafting Toews and Kane.  It took time.  I'm not really sure why you're not giving the same amount of time to the teams mentioned, before deciding whether drafting high gives you a better shot at a cup.
 

"Good teams stay good in this league and bad teams stay bad. "

Really?  You must not have been watching hockey for very long.

[Frazzy Desjardins]

We really have the "lets tank" doofus parade coming out again?  Really?

Hey... let me break it to you again with facts.  Sucking isn't an effective path to being good.  Most teams that have been at the bottom of the league since the salary cap came in continue to be at the bottom of the league.  Those are measurable facts... go talk to Toronto.

No team who finished last in the league in any year since the salary cap has won the Cup.  Most of them have missed the playoffs every year.

Chicago got lucky and won the draft lottery, moving up to pick 1st overall in a year that they picked up Kane .  Most of the productive players on their Cup winning teams were picked up MUCH later and in mid rounds or acquired outside the draft.  You don't have to suck to do that.

LA managed to turn late picks into players who they could then trade for assets.

How many cups have Edmonton, Buffalo, Florida, NYI, St. Louis won since they managed to be worst in the league?  How many years of missed playoffs have most of those team had.

Good teams stay good in this league and bad teams stay bad.  Your plan is to somehow magically become one of the very few exceptions to that rule?  You can't even take being 2nd in the division without having a freak out... just think about a decade of complete futility without a sniff at the playoffs. 

In the cap world you have to either get incredibly lucky or just draft well regardless of the position.  Players can get similar money whichever team they play for nowadays, so they decide to play for teams which give them a chance to win.  Being a sucky team means no UFAs unless you dramatically overpay.

You also have to somehow magically get better before your young players start coming off their ELC's because they will have had enough of losing that they will demand to be overpaid or demand out.  That turns into a revolving door where you lose players at the same pace you draft them.

this has to be one of the best posts I've read in a while. I don't understand how people could be a fan and want your team to lose. Creating a winning culture is far more important, we are in a transition phase and management knows what they are doing.

 

+1

[Frazzy Desjardins]

I don't know how people have time to write all this. 

hahaha I lol'd. Tell me about it, I'm all about the short post.

[BanTSN]

I wonder how the numbers would look the other way - for instance if Hank was put on the fourth line and given 8 - 10 minutes per night, with no PP.  would his numbers be as high as McCann's are now?

 I think that some players need to be played consistently with lots of minutes to be able to get into a rhythm and produce.  Being sat out of a game every now and then, and then being sat out for long durations during the game (See Baertschi) puts the player at a disadvantage.

No doubt that Hank is a better hockey player than McCann right now, it goes to show that the numbers can be interpreted in different ways.

There's a fine balance between throwing kids out there to the wolves, and not giving them enough icetime to flourish.

So far WD's been doing an excellent job and we have to realize that it's a very long season.

[Fanaholic]

AS much as we need better Players by drafting higher (believe in JB), we need WAY BETTER FANS.  Unfortunately we don't have REAL FANS - because the real fans that want to cheer continually get told to be quiet.  If you want to talk about business in the arena then go to a business office and stay out of the entertainment scene where Players feast on fans that cheer.   How do you think the players beat Montreal - the building was so loud it motivated everyone.

[Provost]

Ok here are a few more facts for the "lets tank our way to success" crowd.  These numbers don't even account for top picks that were already playing on these teams from before this current futility streak.

1. New York Islanders haven't won a playoff series in 21 years despite having 12 top 5 picks in that period
2. Florida haven't won a playoff series in 18 years despite having 7 top 5 picks in that period
3. Jets/Thrashers haven't won a playoff series in 15 years (since inception) despite having 8 top 5 picks in that period
4. Columbus haven't won a playoff series in 14 years (since inception) despite having 5 top 5 picks in that period
5. Edmonton haven't won a playoff series in 9 seasons despite having 5 top 5 picks in that period

Bottom 5 teams in terms of success in recent history and all have had plenty of times at bat in the lottery and it didn't help them win a single playoff series... never mind actually going deep and getting a sniff at a Cup.

I didn't include Toronto because even though they haven't won a playoff series in 10 years, they also had a habit of trading away all their 1st round picks so they sucked pretty much all around.

So... there is your guaranteed path to success folks.  Do your best to lose and stock the cupboards via high draft picks and in reality be a loser for a very long time with no end of losing in sight.

[Derp...]

Ok here are a few more facts for the "lets tank our way to success" crowd.  These numbers don't even account for top picks that were already playing on these teams from before this current futility streak.

1. New York Islanders haven't won a playoff series in 21 years despite having 12 top 5 picks in that period
2. Florida haven't won a playoff series in 18 years despite having 7 top 5 picks in that period
3. Jets/Thrashers haven't won a playoff series in 15 years (since inception) despite having 8 top 5 picks in that period
4. Columbus haven't won a playoff series in 14 years (since inception) despite having 5 top 5 picks in that period
5. Edmonton haven't won a playoff series in 9 seasons despite having 5 top 5 picks in that period

Bottom 5 teams in terms of success in recent history and all have had plenty of times at bat in the lottery and it didn't help them win a single playoff series... never mind actually going deep and getting a sniff at a Cup.

I didn't include Toronto because even though they haven't won a playoff series in 10 years, they also had a habit of trading away all their 1st round picks so they sucked pretty much all around.

So... there is your guaranteed path to success folks.  Do your best to lose and stock the cupboards via high draft picks and in reality be a loser for a very long time with no end of losing in sight.

So the moral of the story is winning cups requires great drafting and development. 

We could just say it like "You don't win cups with the first pick overall. You win it with 2nd rounders, 3rd rounders, 4th rounders, all the way to 7th rounders and free agents"

Those who put all their eggs in one basket probably never realized they could even have 2 baskets. 


-- Cut me some slack it's been a strange day.

[the harry]

The latest update on some interesting stats.  Here are the canuck leaders in terms of points per 60 minutes played (with at least 10 games played)

1. McCann - 2.92
2. Baertschi -2.75
3. Daniel - 2.34
4. Jake - 2.04
5. Burrows - 2.04
...

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?reportType=season&report=skaterscoring&season=20152016&gameType=2&aggregate=0&teamId=23&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,10&pos=S

3 out of the top 4 are rookies who barely see PP time and have seen hardly an 3 on 3 time. WAKE UP WILLY!

Granted - the more you play them the more these stats will probably head south, but these numbers show that the kids have been pretty good when given the opportunity.  They play minimal minutes and hardly play in situations that are more likely to produce points like the PP or the 3 on 3 wide open shoot fest...

I know, I know. It is unlikely to see this three kids building a line tonight. But look at it, there is a center, a left and a right wing.

 

[wallstreetamigo]

Ok here are a few more facts for the "lets tank our way to success" crowd.  These numbers don't even account for top picks that were already playing on these teams from before this current futility streak.

1. New York Islanders haven't won a playoff series in 21 years despite having 12 top 5 picks in that period
2. Florida haven't won a playoff series in 18 years despite having 7 top 5 picks in that period
3. Jets/Thrashers haven't won a playoff series in 15 years (since inception) despite having 8 top 5 picks in that period
4. Columbus haven't won a playoff series in 14 years (since inception) despite having 5 top 5 picks in that period
5. Edmonton haven't won a playoff series in 9 seasons despite having 5 top 5 picks in that period

Bottom 5 teams in terms of success in recent history and all have had plenty of times at bat in the lottery and it didn't help them win a single playoff series... never mind actually going deep and getting a sniff at a Cup.

I didn't include Toronto because even though they haven't won a playoff series in 10 years, they also had a habit of trading away all their 1st round picks so they sucked pretty much all around.

So... there is your guaranteed path to success folks.  Do your best to lose and stock the cupboards via high draft picks and in reality be a loser for a very long time with no end of losing in sight.

How does suggesting we move on further from this core group (who I don't think anyone can realistically argue against the fact that they have already shown they can't get us over the playoff hump anymore) and giving more opportunity to young players automatically amount to tanking?

Some of you have no idea what tanking actually is. Tanking is purposely losing. Giving bigger roles and more opportunity to young players in place of declining vets is not a guarantee we will be worse than we are now. Hell, we may even be better.