Lack of hitting one of our BIGGEST problems

[TheGrizzlyCanuck]

24 minutes ago, desiboynux4lifee******* said:

Yes Hitting is needed come playoffs, but I hope Benning sees the biggest problem which has been DEFENCE! move edler,Sbisa,Weber,Hamuis get younger assets and begin the transition by building a GOOD defence that can do its job around Tanev and Hutton. 

I don't know why Benning doesn't see this, but instead he wants to be competitive? how the heck can you be competitive with this defence we have now? Benning's answer rely on Miller, goodluck with that. 

Edler is our best defensemen. Tanev is a very close second (and it may be other way around, all perspective imo), Sbisa is a fine 15 minute Dman who plays physical and Hammer is still a steady top 4 (rumours of his demise have been greatly exaggerated). Weber, yeah okay move him. Hutton has played 20 games. 

Wanting our D to improve is fine, but trading away our D is not the way to improve it. What do you want to ice? 
 

Hutton-Tanev / Biega-Bartkowski / Pedan-Subban

Pedan will phase in this year, one of Subban/Cederholm/Neil/Sautner/Fedun(?) in the next two to three and Brisebois in three to four. Free agents and trades to fill out the remaining holes. You can be sure management will address our D through the draft etc. but it will take a while. We are potentially one trade away from having a young and impressive D core. Trading them all is not the answer. 
 

[Jack Fig]

It's not exactly about hitting, but more about being difficult to play against. I love a physical team, but a straight-up hard-hitting, punishing team is almost passe in today's NHL. There aren't that many of them. But size, finishing checks, sticks and bodies in passing lanes, bodies in skating lanes and the ability to take away open ice is the new definition of being 'difficult to play against'. And this is best served by having bigger guys who can work, skate and play with consistency.

[RonMexico]

38 minutes ago, desiboynux4lifee******* said:

Yes Hitting is needed come playoffs, but I hope Benning sees the biggest problem which has been DEFENCE! move edler,Sbisa,Weber,Hamuis get younger assets and begin the transition by building a GOOD defence that can do its job around Tanev and Hutton. 

I don't know why Benning doesn't see this, but instead he wants to be competitive? how the heck can you be competitive with this defence we have now? Benning's answer rely on Miller, goodluck with that. 

Benning isn't the visionary you are.

[TimberWolf]

I can't remember what game it was the other day. I think the Devils when McCann was forechecking for a puck in the corner and was going to lose the race. So instead he made the defenseman pay by riding him hard into the boards. Sure, the Devils got the puck out but he did to them what other teams do to Tanev all game long

It was the first time in a long time a Canuck didn't just skate past and I wonder what the rookies are supposed to be learning if they are doing what the vets are not in terms of tenacity?

[hatedkid666]

We should just play Virtanen more often

[bigbadcanucks]

9 hours ago, elvis15 said:

Hitting is not everything. Hitting means you don't have the puck, and if you don't hit to try and gain possession, then you're just trying to intimidate. How'd that work out for us last year in that super physical game against the Kings where we took it to them with grit and strength? Oh right, we lost. We actually outhit any other team in the 2011 playoffs - including the Bruins in the final - and that didn't work out for us either.

If you look at someone like Kesler, who does hit, his strength is more in his ability to strip the team of the puck rather than trying to knock them off it. I'd rather have solid guys who are strong on takeaways than a bunch of physical guys who hit everything they see.

How do I say this without sounding like a patronizing/condescending SOB?  Ever since elvis has refrained from mini-modding, I've read his posts, and have to say that he's an insightful hockey guy, who IMO, knows his stuff, and is someone who brings up good points (some of which I don't agree with, but gets me thinking).  Glad to talk hockey with ya anytime^^^^.

Anyways, bad on me for ignoring elvis's posts in the past...though to my defence, the old elvis was somewhat unbearable at times.  I'm a fan of the new elvis. 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

EDIT: forgot this was a post about the Canucks not hitting enough...gotta say, the Canucks are endeavoring to play a strong puck possession game, which means that theoretically, they are doing less chasing and are the ones being chased. 

The Canucks game is based on puck pursuit and retrieval, so as someone has already mentioned, it's about take-aways by getting in lanes and using the stick effectively. 

Normally, when you take the body, you take yourself out of the play...this is sort of what I see Jake struggling with -- making the decision to take the body when there is support behind you vs. haphazardly hitting everything in sight.  Hitting and hitting hard has its time and place only if it has the desired effect (i.e., forcing d-men to make plays faster or with more urgency, hopefully resulting in turnovers...Weber is a text book case of someone who can be rushed and intimidated with this tactic), but hitting, IMO, has to deployed with purpose.

And plus, who actually believes the NHL stat line on hits anyways?  This is all subjective tracking by NHL officials that probably have a margin of error >20%.

[Boudrias]

You should hope that a consistent physical game should get 10 points over a season by discouraging opposing teams. How many did it get Calgary last year? This does not factor all the benefits for those non physical players who benefit from more room.

My breakdown: Consistent hitters: Prust, Dorsett, Virtanen, Sbisa

Subtle physical players: Twins, Horvat, Hanson, Cracknell, Biega, Edler

 If a team is not built for consistent physical play it is hard to change that. Benning is obviously trying through his draft and signings.

[menace]

To the OP the hitting stats are not my concern but I am with you about the lack of timely hits in a game.

The hesitation created in opponents minds when a big hitter is on the ice is valuable. I don't think the coaching staff

puts any emphasis on this style of play so the big hitters watch from the bench. As long as the hits come in the Playoffs I'm good.

[Stormriders]

9 hours ago, elvis15 said:

Hitting is not everything. Hitting means you don't have the puck, and if you don't hit to try and gain possession, then you're just trying to intimidate. How'd that work out for us last year in that super physical game against the Kings where we took it to them with grit and strength? Oh right, we lost. We actually outhit any other team in the 2011 playoffs - including the Bruins in the final - and that didn't work out for us either.

If you look at someone like Kesler, who does hit, his strength is more in his ability to strip the team of the puck rather than trying to knock them off it. I'd rather have solid guys who are strong on takeaways than a bunch of physical guys who hit everything they see.

Your reference to the super physical game against the Kings where we lost is a poor example.  That was in fact a good game but if you recall, the outcome was determined by the refs by giving our player, Tom Sestito a 5, 2, 2 for 9 minutes [plus a game] without penalizing the LA player Jordan Nolan at all.  I have never seen that before in all the games I have watched and it was unfair and clearly helped LA win, . . . 'How'd that work out for ya'.  And BTW, it was two years ago, not last year.

Your statement that we outhit every other team in the 2011 playoffs is also false.  In that playoff year, out of 25 playoff games, we outhit 12 times, were outhit 10 times, and three games with even hits.  Please use facts.  

If you were right that we had outhit all the teams in the playoffs in 2011, that would actually support my argument that we need to hit more, because that was our most successful season in the last how many years?, since we got to game 7 for the cup, as close as you can get without winning it.

[oldnews]

In order to hit the other team needs to be in possession of the puck - so hitting in general is over-rated - it only occurs when you fail to be in possession.

Hitting statistics in isolation don't tell you enough to really be concerned about.

[Stormriders]

13 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Lets look at 3 teams over the last 15 years who never even approached the top 20 in hits in the league

 

Detroit

Pittsburgh

Chicago

 

6 cups between them.

 

Let's add a few more.

 

Carolina.  Tampa Bay and the 2000 and 2003 jersey devils.

 

10 cups between them.  All of them weren't in the upper half of hitting in the league.  Food for thought when we worry about finishing checks.

Your argument suggests that winning is all about hitting, and it's not, nor did I say that.  Your first three examples are good teams with superior talent, and little replaces elite talent.  And at the same time, your suggestion that none of those three even approached the top 20 hits in the league over the past 15 years is wrong, although I agree they are not heavy hitting teams.  Detroit was ranked 18th in 2010 and 8th in 2009; Chicago was only once inside 20 in 2010 at 15th, but Pittsburgh has never been higher than 9th.  I only looked back as far at 2009.

[RonMexico]

So is it lack of hitting or team toughness? I can't tell with all the similar threads.

[The Lock]

I think knocking the opponent off the puck is more important than the actual toughness or checking part. Whether that involves actual toughness or checking or something else, I don't really know. But, the ultimate goal should be control of the puck, yes?

If we're talking hits, we haven't been a team that hits a lot in years, but we've still found ways to win in the past. I'm willing to bank on it not being all about "finishing your checks" given how few hits we've done when compared with the Browns or the Clutterbucks or the Callighans of the league.

[Toni Zamboni]

1 hour ago, hatedkid666 said:

We should just play Virtanen more often

[The Lock]

Just now, Toni Zamboni said:

See? Now we're finally getting our own Brown! lol

[C.Schneider]

9 minutes ago, The Lock said:

See? Now we're finally getting our own Brown! lol

I sure hope you don't mean Dustin Brown because if it was, that would have been an elbow to the head hit, with a few skate stomps while passing by.

[The Lock]

Just now, C.Schneider said:

I sure hope you don't mean Dustin Brown because if it was, that would have been an elbow to the head hit, with a few skate stomps while passing by.

I mean more in general hitting. Not necessarily dirty like Dustin Brown, but just the premise of being that hitting presence on the ice.

Don't think too hard into the comparisons please. Just think in general.

[alfstonker]

13 hours ago, Stormriders said:

For a long time now I have tracked the Canucks and hits per game, always feeling the Canucks do not play physical enough.  To me to be successful, you need the right balance of skill, speed, and physicality.  Since we peaked in 2011, our overall skill level has diminished, but at the same time, so has our physicality.  Simply put, we are not a tough enough team to play against, and here I am not referring to fighting but rather making other teams less willing to play against us because of the price they will have to pay to make plays.  The Canucks have trailed number of hit stats for years.  I look at that each and every game, and I think it is an indicator of how soft a team we are to play against.  There are very few games you will see where we are close in the hit department.   Here are some stats to support my opinion:

 

 

 

In hits per game, for the current season, we are 28th at 17.2 vs a league high of  36.4.  2015 we are  27th in hits at 19.2 vs a league high of 32.7.  2014 we were 21st at 20.9 vs. a league high of 31.8.  See the trend?

 

 

 

Year to date our highest hitter is Jake at 53, which ranks 40^th in the league.  Some surprises when you look at other individuals are Prust at only 12 [yes he was injured but that is only 1 hit pg], Sutter at 10 and Tanev at 6.

 

Until we start making other teams pay the price to compete against us, or, until we become an elite skilled team [not in the near future based on our roster and prospects], we will be a mediocre team that will never contend for a cup.

 

 

I tend to agree with the OP. 

However we are not really built (yet) to be a physical team. We still have the Twins, and now we have added Bo, Baertschi, and McCann to Higgins, Weber, Vbrata, Hamhuis Bartowski, Hutton and Dorsett (he doesn't have the size to hit constantly.)

We thought we were getting something special (in hitting) from Virtanen but as I have said before, ever since he realised there might be consequences to even a legit hit he has tailed off. There is a big difference smashing guys in the juniors and having a big body to back it up and smashing a player in the NHL and finding someone wants to make something of it. I'm not worried about Jake though, once he learns to handle himself in a fight against men he will imo revert back to a big hitter.

That leaves Edler, Sbisa, Sutter, Cracknell, Prust and Hansen and out of these 5 only Edler and Sbisa and Cracknell  have the body size to keep hitting although when there is only two players it is going to take it's toll.

What surprised me is Sbisa is only 198lbs, the 9/10 heaviest in the team and yet he is probably our biggest hitter and our most physical player, which explains why we missed him so much when he was injured.

In the pipeline, HOPEFULLY is Pedan, Gaunce, Grenier, Tryamkin, Boeser, Kenins and a few more further down the line but at present we just don't have the bodies.

 

Let me add, I don't confuse hitting with toughness OR grit. The 2011 team could hit but it took it's toll in the end. I think it took far too much out of the Canucks to the extent it was half way into the next season before we got our mojo back.

[billabong]

Plenty of physical defencemen on the market....gryba, prout, schenn, tinordi...

but ever since that wpg game it was clear that when it gets to a "playoff" type atmosphere we don't have enough tough and rough players to compete in the west

 

 

 

[Provost]

Unfortunately the "hitting" stats are pretty much complete garbage since each arena counts them differently and some grossly inflate their own team statistics.

Having said that, we certainly lack players who make the opposition have to keep their head on a swivel while they are out there.  You definitely need a couple of D who can lay out big hits just to make the other team's forwards think about that instead of just focusing on making the perfect skill play in the offensive zone.

You almost never see anyone playing against us bail on the puck to avoid getting hit.

Some, dare I say, truculence on the back end is also useful in terms of being mean and dirty in battles clearing players out of the crease.  You see the Sedins getting cross checked, speared, punched, etc when they near the blue paint... but no one gets their hair messed up when standing on top of our goalies.