The Canucks Internal Turmoil

[C.Schneider]

I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say this team is demonstrating probably the worst performance in the past decade.

We're quick to point fingers on the players for the mistakes they make on the ice, but really, I see the problem coming from far within the organization: The Owner, the Management Group, the Coaching staff, and the Players are not on the same page.  

Aquilinis are in for the profit.  Now before you start flaming me, please understand I am in no way blaming the owner for wanting to make money.  That being said, they are not true fans of the sport like some owners around the league.  They are solely interested in the profit and don't have much interest in the well being of the team's future.  As long as the product performs now (makes the playoff), and they can continuously advertise to the fans that the Canucks will come back for anther cup run the following year, they are happy.  MG had suggested to the ownership a rebuild was crucial for the team, but was released shortly after.  Aquilinis have only one thing in mind, and that is the playoffs year in and year out.  Whether the team has sufficient tool to win the cup is not so much of a concern.

Now JB and TL aren't fools.  They understand this team is stale, just as JT has blatantly said it.  The Sedins are great players, but the team does not have the requirement for an actual Stanley Cup contention.  Without selling off our vets while they are still considered an asset, this team is evidently a sinking ship.  We need to part ways with the past and start a new history with a new team.  JB and TL understands this.  However, the Owners desire conflicts, therefore they need to find an alternate path that can incorporate both a rebuild and a playoff berth.  Hence comes in "re-tool on the fly".  Sounds nice in theory, but has a really low % of actually properly succeeding.  Basically, we are absolutely gambling on our vets holding form, while our 20+ picks and late round picks hit the lottery (although our history says nay).  If that fails, we now have aged vets who won't bring us anything, with young players who are lost in transition.  Regardless, JB and TL must respect the Owner's decision and they are doing what they can with what they have.

Now our favorite scapegoat Willie D.  Has he made bonehead decision?  Yes.  Is he stubborn?  Yes.  Does he keep playing useless vets (not going to say Weber, woops, I did)?  Yes.  But is he really to be blamed for?  No.  He is just a guy trying to hold his job.  We know, and he knows, he is the first man in line to be canned for any blaming that needs to be done for this awful season.  He knows he has no room to make mistake, therefore he does not want to see mistakes on the ice either.  Weber, Higgins, Prust, Barf-kowski, etc... yes, they certainly don't deserve ice time over other players, however, they probably, in general, play a more safer game than our young kids.  Although our youngsters show far more skill and flashes of dominance, they do make far more mistakes.  This is where Willie draws the line.  Can't blame him, he is only trying to save his job.  I mean, I'm sure every coach dreams to be an NHL coach one day.  He just got here, and I'm sure he certainly doesn't want to leave (although, his fate seems to be somewhat sealed).  A lot of his decision seems desperate, hence why we see questionable moves by him.  I'm sure JB knows Willie is the first man to go before him, and perhaps, sacrificing Willie to buy a little more time to execute his moves might be JB's plan.

The players are just players.  Some show the heart of a champion (Miller for example), however, others seem to have settled very comfortably and are in it because it is their job.  Playoff or not, they are here to work and collect their paycheck.  Our vets were never held accountable for anything since 2011, and got a free pass in every occasion.  Nothing has changed.  They know they are safe.  They know they will get paid.  Maybe this is what JB is trying to change.  He wants a culture where players are hungry to win, and hopefully JB can accomplish that, because it would be a real treat to the fans to see a team on the ice who are just as passionate as us.

 

This really isn't much of a rant, but more of an observation as to why this team is performing so poorly.  There is no unification, everyone has their own agenda.  Some may ask why is that even important?  Well actually, for any team (this including players all the way to ownership), being able to work together towards a mutual goal is probably the number 1 step to actually achieving it.  And until the Canucks have a unified plan, we really aren't all Canucks.

[Kevin Biestra]

2 minutes ago, C.Schneider said:

I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say this team is demonstrating probably the worst performance in the past decade.

It's not worse than the meltdown under Tortorella.  Equal at the worst.

And it's also not really any worse than that losing and goalless stretch under Vigneault.  10 or 20 games of hell, really.

This is bad, no doubt.  But we've seen it before.  Like the Tortorella stretch and unlike the Vigneault one, however, I'm not terribly optimistic for a recovery.  Miller looks exhausted, like he's done for the year.  And everyone but the Sedins seems to be just skating around randomly and ineffectually...  Just pass the puck to Daniel and Henrik and try to get them the Art Ross Trophy (if Kane gets hurt or something).  I don't know what other goals are remotely realistic for the year.

[MJDDawg]

Internal turmoil???

The only internal turmoil is the one you're going through, unable to understand what the word "transition" means and having obvious unrealistic expectations.

[Clinch16]

5 minutes ago, MJDDawg said:

Internal turmoil???

The only internal turmoil is the one you're going through, unable to understand what the word "transition" means and having obvious unrealistic expectations.

yup

[MaxVerstappen33]

The Aqua's bought the team at a relative high point but I think they knew that. And they also did squeeze the most out of it not long ago.

They had a chance to buy the team so they did. If they are getting antsy because of the product now then they are fools.

Misleading title/

[appleboy]

I don't think they have any delusions of the Stanley cup any time soon. I think they have entrusted the rebuild to Linden. A rebuild has begun and it will become much clearer very soon. I think they will move out players on ufa's and by the end of the year we will be younger and have cap space for next year.

Will they try to move Miller?

[C.Schneider]

22 minutes ago, MJDDawg said:

Internal turmoil???

The only internal turmoil is the one you're going through, unable to understand what the word "transition" means and having obvious unrealistic expectations.

What expectation?  

I think you seem to be confused, and shouldn't be so quick to bunch everyone into the "panic thread after a loss" poster.  I have continuously stated, before the season, that we should just relax and enjoy the season as is because we aren't making the playoff.

That being said, the team is completely lost.  The young players are lost.  A transition doesn't define a team that is absolutely beat mentally and emotionally.  Miss the playoffs?  Yes.  But a team this heartless?  No.

 

[EdgarM]

This has been going on for years and the only common denominator is a few players who have managed to play for far too long on this team beause of NTC's. This team will be much better when these are gone. Players need to play based on performance bonuses and no more NTC's. So tired of watching players only playing to collect paychecks.

[Honky Cat]

7 hours ago, MJDDawg said:

Internal turmoil???

The only internal turmoil is the one you're going through, unable to understand what the word "transition" means and having obvious unrealistic expectations.

Agreed..There isn't any internal turmoil on the team..IMO...Probably more of a frustration and realization that they just don't have the personnel to get the job done.

[VenitoHammer]

Imagine Tom Gaglardi ended up our owner instead...

[ILL BILL NECRO]

penis

[GiveEmTheCan]

I wonder if there's something to that. If I'm Aquilini, I'm pissed that management is icing a max cap team that is playing like an AHL bottom feeder. The team went into the season paying a coach 5 mil a year to sit at home, a goalie 1.2 mil a year to play for another team, 5 mil for a fourth line, and now they're watching ticket prices and sales fall through the floor. 

if im management, I'm not happy that the rookies are being poorly deployed and an attempt to kickstart their development in the nhl appears to have backfired pretty magnificently. 

If I'm coaching, I'm pretty pissed that I was saddled with a team full of rookies and unmotivated vets and no depth whatsoever.

if I'm a player I'm just plain confused.

the franchise is a mess from top to bottom. There is no synergy between any branch of the organization. No one seems to know what the direction is supposed to be. The Canucks are a rudderless ship. A mess of which I don't think a single top 5 pick will be able to repair. 

Settle in guys, we're about to go full oiler.

 

[alfstonker]

9 hours ago, C.Schneider said:

I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say this team is demonstrating probably the worst performance in the past decade.

We're quick to point fingers on the players for the mistakes they make on the ice, but really, I see the problem coming from far within the organization: The Owner, the Management Group, the Coaching staff, and the Players are not on the same page.  

Aquilinis are in for the profit.  Now before you start flaming me, please understand I am in no way blaming the owner for wanting to make money.  That being said, they are not true fans of the sport like some owners around the league.  They are solely interested in the profit and don't have much interest in the well being of the team's future.  As long as the product performs now (makes the playoff), and they can continuously advertise to the fans that the Canucks will come back for anther cup run the following year, they are happy.  MG had suggested to the ownership a rebuild was crucial for the team, but was released shortly after.  Aquilinis have only one thing in mind, and that is the playoffs year in and year out.  Whether the team has sufficient tool to win the cup is not so much of a concern.

Now JB and TL aren't fools.  They understand this team is stale, just as JT has blatantly said it.  The Sedins are great players, but the team does not have the requirement for an actual Stanley Cup contention.  Without selling off our vets while they are still considered an asset, this team is evidently a sinking ship.  We need to part ways with the past and start a new history with a new team.  JB and TL understands this.  However, the Owners desire conflicts, therefore they need to find an alternate path that can incorporate both a rebuild and a playoff berth.  Hence comes in "re-tool on the fly".  Sounds nice in theory, but has a really low % of actually properly succeeding.  Basically, we are absolutely gambling on our vets holding form, while our 20+ picks and late round picks hit the lottery (although our history says nay).  If that fails, we now have aged vets who won't bring us anything, with young players who are lost in transition.  Regardless, JB and TL must respect the Owner's decision and they are doing what they can with what they have.

Now our favorite scapegoat Willie D.  Has he made bonehead decision?  Yes.  Is he stubborn?  Yes.  Does he keep playing useless vets (not going to say Weber, woops, I did)?  Yes.  But is he really to be blamed for?  No.  He is just a guy trying to hold his job.  We know, and he knows, he is the first man in line to be canned for any blaming that needs to be done for this awful season.  He knows he has no room to make mistake, therefore he does not want to see mistakes on the ice either.  Weber, Higgins, Prust, Barf-kowski, etc... yes, they certainly don't deserve ice time over other players, however, they probably, in general, play a more safer game than our young kids.  Although our youngsters show far more skill and flashes of dominance, they do make far more mistakes.  This is where Willie draws the line.  Can't blame him, he is only trying to save his job.  I mean, I'm sure every coach dreams to be an NHL coach one day.  He just got here, and I'm sure he certainly doesn't want to leave (although, his fate seems to be somewhat sealed).  A lot of his decision seems desperate, hence why we see questionable moves by him.  I'm sure JB knows Willie is the first man to go before him, and perhaps, sacrificing Willie to buy a little more time to execute his moves might be JB's plan.

The players are just players.  Some show the heart of a champion (Miller for example), however, others seem to have settled very comfortably and are in it because it is their job.  Playoff or not, they are here to work and collect their paycheck.  Our vets were never held accountable for anything since 2011, and got a free pass in every occasion.  Nothing has changed.  They know they are safe.  They know they will get paid.  Maybe this is what JB is trying to change.  He wants a culture where players are hungry to win, and hopefully JB can accomplish that, because it would be a real treat to the fans to see a team on the ice who are just as passionate as us.

 

This really isn't much of a rant, but more of an observation as to why this team is performing so poorly.  There is no unification, everyone has their own agenda.  Some may ask why is that even important?  Well actually, for any team (this including players all the way to ownership), being able to work together towards a mutual goal is probably the number 1 step to actually achieving it.  And until the Canucks have a unified plan, we really aren't all Canucks.

Honestly, I don't believe any of this to be in any way accurate. Especially your take on the rookies. If you think any one of these rookies have performed over the last 15 games like a vet player playing for any of the opponents we have faced then we have different ideas on standards.

I am all for cutting young players slack but it doesn't amount to deluding myself.

I place the blame directly on TL and JB here as I said on another thread. They have tried to cheat the system and there is a reason teams like Detroit and Boston cycle through their A affiliates, it's called DEVELOPMENT.

Until we start drafting from the top 3 our young players should only come from Utica. The one player who looked right to me from the start of the season was Gaunce. (and Hutton but he has been playing against men) There will always be some players who can make the jump but they tend to be College or foreign players who have played against men.

JB especially should have known that, after all Boston used the same system with Providence. (Willie knew it when he didn't want to continue with Bo in the line up last year coincidentally having coached the Stars affiliate who are now benefitting from doing it the right way) It's not fair to the rookie and who knows what this is doing for Bo's confidence/development.

You could argue Baertschi suffered a similar fate with Calgary as did Kassian getting barely half a season before promotion, it's not enough.

There is another reason teams like Boston and Detroit use that system. It is the only way to weed out your A affiliate and make room for new draftees. If you don't promote from the A then you never know if a player has what it takes. I look at Biega and think he has been a victim of this poor utilisation with Buffalo and Florida.

 

Now you may be correct in thinking the owners have pressured TL and JB but if they have not explained to them how much of a false economy their plan could lead to then they have dug their own and probably Willie's grave.

Personally I think they are good owners who are maybe just not hockey savvy enough and need better guidance.

 

[alfstonker]

9 hours ago, chilliwiggins said:

well it looked like Miller when looking to the bench tonight during the anslaught  that he was waiting for willy to pull him out ,then that didn't happen and you could see miller shaking his head.  So I'm sure miller is tuning willy out. I think it was after the fourth, maybe the 5th.   I think he has lost the veterans in the room.  It doesn't matter though as the troubles run much deeper then coaching.  

Amazing how you could work all that out. I couldn't.

Funny how Willie said Miller doesn't like to be taken out so are you sure he wasn't shaking his head saying "No don't bench me"

I realise how such a thing may not fit your agenda but I fail to realise what benefit Willie gets for keeping Miller on if he wants off.

[-DLC-]

11 hours ago, C.Schneider said:

What expectation?  

I think you seem to be confused, and shouldn't be so quick to bunch everyone into the "panic thread after a loss" poster.  I have continuously stated, before the season, that we should just relax and enjoy the season as is because we aren't making the playoff.

That being said, the team is completely lost.  The young players are lost.  A transition doesn't define a team that is absolutely beat mentally and emotionally.  Miss the playoffs?  Yes.  But a team this heartless?  No.

 

I don't agree with any of it, sorry?

And internal turmoil suggests there's something unsettling happening...issues or controversy.  We've had enough of that stuff and really don't need to generate more, with ripples of such.

"It is what is is".  Transitional periods are the in betweens...you can expect things to be a work in progress not a finished product.

[RUPERTKBD]

Yet another dimestore "diagnosis" from a wannbe Tony Robbins.

Maybe the team just isn't all that good?

[-DLC-]

Quote

JB and TL understands this.  However, the Owners desire conflict

This is when I knew....this part.  This is tabloid reporting here, not an idea or opinion. 

I'm not sure any of us "know" what others are thinking or desire.  What person desires conflict?

 

Basically the team is trying to stay competitive enough to keep people in the seats while retooling.  It's a rough go because those two things DO stand in conflict.  But if you drive a fickle fanbase away, you have limited resources by way of that.  So it's a please all the people thing in a sense but no one is happy when we lose.

[etsen3]

I'm much less cynical about the Aquilinis, they've always been heavily committed to making money, but their commitment to the sport/on-ice product has been equal to that from what I've seen.  They've always been more than willing to spend to make our team better, partly because the team makes so much money.  If anything they've been too involved in the hockey side.  Just because they have a slightly different vision for the team's success (remaining competitive rather than taking) doesn't mean they don't care about the team.

I know a lot of people hate on them but it could be much much worse.

[LaBamba]

4 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said:

I don't agree with any of it, sorry?

And internal turmoil suggests there's something unsettling happening...issues or controversy.  We've had enough of that stuff and really don't need to generate more, with ripples of such.

"It is what is is".  Transitional periods are the in betweens...you can expect things to be a work in progress not a finished product.

I feel really bad for Willie and his coaching staff. He looked completely destroyed in the post game interview. They don't have much to work with. 

Lets be completely real with ourselves, we are a team decimated with injuries. The guys we have stepping up to fill the void don't believe in themselves.

We are in a constant state of hesitation, our penalty kill is reflecting this. 

As bad as things may seem I truly believe that in any life situation you need to hit rock bottom before you turn things around. Rock bottom might take a season or 2. 

[ABNuck]

27 minutes ago, chilliwiggins said:

Your wr ong , Aquilinis are fans and that's what got us here was his initial meddling by overstepping Gillis and bringing in Torts, that's where it started unraveling.  Torts overplayed the top players and burnt them out, he stuck it to louie in the outdoor game which snowballed, the team failed under him.   Aquilini then fired gillis made him the scape goat, hired Linden as a pure PR move who has zero experience running a team.  Linden hired benning who gutted the core intelligence of the team Lawrence Gillman is basically the one guy who invented Analytics(look it up).   In place they hired guys like Weisbrod.. What has he done?   um first overall pick in the NBA Tim Duncan.     um first overall pick is a bulletproof pick in my mind and you cant fail there.  But you have to be the very worst team to get that pick right?   Back to Benning , Seguin will go down as one of the worst trades boston ever made.   After that boston drafted dougie Hamilton gave him the keys to the franchise, which pissed off the core vets.   Following year they collapsed, and the dressing room  divided itself, vets wanted out.  the team was done and ownership stepped in to change management.  Hamilton was traded cause he was a cancer in the room.   Weisbrod in Calgary.   When brian burke fired him he stated that he didn't even know what the guy did.  He wasn't involved in the gaudreau pick.   He was a ushl guy before that hence why canucks are now all in on USHL draft picks.  Ok back to Benning , every single trade he has to date you cannot say he won, and I mean ZERO.  he has overpaid players at term consistently.   He has thrown away picks for fixer upers that have shown to be players that he said aren't the kinds of players we want, IE Benning told us  big hard to play against, hard working.   Bearcheese and vey don't have any of that.    55 even strength goals lost from last years roster ( kassian mathias bonino)  were not replaced in a league of parity, but he told the season ticket holders they will contend for a playoff spot.  At season start he gifted 2 positions to bearcheese and Virtanen.  Sven has shown the same as what vey did. (not enough to be here).  Virtanen is in the exact same position as Grigorenko was in , in Buffalo, which ruined his development and added years to his learning curve.  Prospects in Utica that have earned the chances like Gaunce and Friesen etc are being passed by even know they have shown more then the rookie benning guys, but because they are gillis guys , they get the short end of the stick.  I could go on and on, but why ????  Its so glaring and obvious.  I have been a Nucks fan since 1982 and have seen this Merry Go Round before.   This rebuild on the fly. lol  your looking at another 10 years people.   Inexperience is inexperience plain and simple , these guys are in over there head.     

1/ Bennings deal off of Seguin...had to be done, no doubt about it, he wasn't working in Boston so you get what you get.

2/ I don't think I would be quoting Brian Burke as any sort of credible source. He's an emotional guy who sometimes just blurts stuff out (true or not). If he had a guy on his staff that he didn't know what he did, well that's poor management. And I think the number of times BB has been fired attests to that.

3/ I agree that he's a USHL guy but so what? Unless you can corner a guy who has worked in every developmental league in the world, you'll need to make up your staff with a cross-section of that experience...Weisbrod is just one source of counsel...and one who has the ear of JB and TL...can you argue that Demko or Boesser are bad picks?

4/ Totally agree that development is the issue. But based on the contract/cap space issue that JB inherited, what else are we to do? We could sign some 4th line plugs at 600K a year but I don't think that would achieve even what we have done so far this year (we'd be bottom dwellers for sure).

Overall, yes, there is SOME disorganization and mis-management of assets, but overall when compared to other teams it isn't nearly as bad as it's made out. Every team goes through something like this...it's just our turn (again). Imagine there are 10 top GM's, 10 top coaches, 10 top Dmen, 10 top forwards, 10 top Tenders...in a 30 team league...now they get spread out. Some teams will luck out and get a good mix, while others like us get a bit bunched up in places (currently 2 top forwards for example with little else in support - when we went on a cup run we had 2 top forwards, 1 top goalie, 1 top coach...and we fell just short). This is where development comes in...hopefully as time goes on we can assemble a package that has one of each category...then we can contend again...but it will take time.