[Report] Dennis Wideman suspended 20 games

[Fateless]

Just now, Alflives said:

If he was "woozy" (as you say) then why didn't the Flames follow the league standard for such circumstance?  The Flames are responsible for having "woozy" players go to a quiet room.  They didn't, so clearly the player's own team felt he was not too "woozy" to be responsible for his actions.  The Flames should have sent him to the quiet room, especially after seeing him hit the ref. That just supports the idea he knew what he was doing.

You can't indict a player for a failing on the organizations part of not following a different set of rules that aren't connected to the current punishment. Regardless of how the Flames responded to Wideman being woozy doesn't change the fact that Wideman was CLEARLY woozy on his way to the bench and on the bench. 

[Monty]

Just now, Fateless said:

You can't indict a player for a failing on the organizations part of not following a different set of rules that aren't connected to the current punishment. Regardless of how the Flames responded to Wideman being woozy doesn't change the fact that Wideman was CLEARLY woozy on his way to the bench and on the bench. 

The fact remains that, as we discuss this, Wideman has not been diagnosed with a concussion or concussion like symptoms since the hit. So this argument of "him being woozy" means nothing.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

I think they expect an appeal.  NHL hands out the big suspension to show the refs they support them with full intentions of NHLPA appealing.In the end it will be dropped to be 7 -10 games, and everyone will be happy...except for wideman 

[Cromeslab]

Is it the trainers responsibility to assess if a player is "woozy" and if so send said player to quiet room?

[TheOgRook]

1 minute ago, Monty said:

The fact remains that, as we discuss this, Wideman has not been diagnosed with a concussion or concussion like symptoms since the hit. So this argument of "him being woozy" means nothing.

^^this.. Good suspension and number of games.  I think if would have left the game under concussion protocol, the league may have been more lenient.  You can't cry concussion and finish the rest of the game and expect to get away with it.

[Fateless]

Just now, Monty said:

The fact remains that, as we discuss this, Wideman has not been diagnosed with a concussion or concussion like symptoms since the hit. So this argument of "him being woozy" means nothing.

Oh please, point out to me in the rules where it says the only way a hit on a referee will be deemed unintentional is if he has been diagnosed with a concussion. 

Intent requires forethought - Wideman didn't even notice the referee until the last second where he brought up his arms (likely due to muscle memory of bracing for hits like he has all his career). When you pair that with his reaction on the bench - its clear Wideman didn't even realize what he did.

Woozy DOES mean something because it gives you a view into his mindframe at the time - whether or not he was concussed is irrelevant. 

[Crackers]

Seems fair. It's really about setting a precedent for other players. Wideman, whether he was fully mentally "there" or not, intentionally nailed an nhl official from behind. There needs to be zero tolerance for that kind of thing.

[SvenBae]

2 minutes ago, Fateless said:

You can't indict a player for a failing on the organizations part of not following a different set of rules that aren't connected to the current punishment. Regardless of how the Flames responded to Wideman being woozy doesn't change the fact that Wideman was CLEARLY woozy on his way to the bench and on the bench. 

You can indict a player for that, being that the organization did not claim responsibility, leading the NHL to believe he was aware of his actions.

[Alflives]

Just now, Fateless said:

You can't indict a player for a failing on the organizations part of not following a different set of rules that aren't connected to the current punishment. Regardless of how the Flames responded to Wideman being woozy doesn't change the fact that Wideman was CLEARLY woozy on his way to the bench and on the bench. 

Actually it does.  The team's trainers felt Wideman was fine, and didn't require assistance.  That's evidence, from an expert - medically qualified to determine if players are "woozy".  If a specialist is the first res-ponder, and provides evidence, it is very valuable evidence indeed in determining guilt.  We were not there, while the medical experts who were decided (at that very moment) that Wideman was in complete control of his faculties.  That proves guilt.  

[Fateless]

Just now, Alflives said:

Actually it does.  The team's trainers felt Wideman was fine, and didn't require assistance.  That's evidence, from an expert - medically qualified to determine if players are "woozy".  If a specialist is the first res-ponder, and provides evidence, it is very valuable evidence indeed in determining guilt.  We were not there, while the medical experts who were decided (at that very moment) that Wideman was in complete control of his faculties.  That proves guilt.  

The amount of unqualified lawyers claiming lack of concussion proves guilt on these forums is astounding. THAT'S NOT HOW INTENT WORKS. Just because a trainer deems he doesn't need to go to the quiet room DOES NOT mean that Wideman therefore had the requisite mens rea required for the 20 game suspension. That is an illogical chain of reasoning. 

Just because Wideman did not have a concussion does not mean he was capable of forming the requisite intent at the time of the collision. When you look at how unstable Wideman was on his feet on the way to the bench paired with his actions on the bench (completely keeled over and looking dazed) and being unaware of his collision - there is no way Wideman could have formed the proper mens rea.

This WILL get appealed. The NHL is taking a hardline stance (which is their right) but that doesn't mean the length of suspension is justified under the rules.

 

[HC20.0]

Well earned. NHL sending a message with this. 

[Mikey2Dope]

Wideman's "I saw the ref last second and couldn't avoid him" excuse was pure garbage and doesn't point to him being out of it. If he couldn't avoid him and it was a last second accident, then why did Wideman skate to the bench and not immediately check to see if Henderson was hurt?

League got it 100% right.

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Fateless said:

The amount of unqualified lawyers claiming lack of concussion proves guilt on these forums is astounding. THAT'S NOT HOW INTENT WORKS. Just because a trainer deems he doesn't need to go to the quiet room DOES NOT mean that Wideman therefore had the requisite mens rea required for the 20 game suspension. That is an illogical chain of reasoning. 

Just because Wideman did not have a concussion does not mean he was capable of forming the requisite intent at the time of the collision. When you look at how unstable Wideman was on his feet on the way to the bench paired with his actions on the bench (completely keeled over and looking dazed) and being unaware of his collision - there is no way Wideman could have formed the proper mens rea.

This WILL get appealed. The NHL is taking a hardline stance (which is their right) but that doesn't mean the length of suspension is justified under the rules.

 

The best witness to this action was medical personnel at the scene, who evaluated the player.  Those medical people (at the scene) determined Wideman was in full control of his faculties.  Done.  He's guilty.  I'm surprised he didn't get more than 20.  

[Fateless]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

The best witness to this action was medical personnel at the scene, who evaluated the player.  Those medical people (at the scene) determined Wideman was in full control of his faculties.  Done.  He's guilty.  I'm surprised he didn't get more than 20.  

Would love to see the medical report you're quoting where you say that the medical staff felt Wideman had full control of himself. The medical staff will only remove the player from the game if they aren't going to recover on the bench or if they have a concussion. We see players all the time get hit hard, head to the bench slowly and out of it and sit on the bench for a few shifts until they're ready to go again. 

Just because a trainer didn't pull him from the game DOES NOT MEAN he could therefore have had the proper intent. That chain of reasoning simply does not connect. There are way too many exceptions.

[hatedkid666]

Bye bye flames season. He's a big piece of their puzzle

[hlinkas wrister]

15 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I think they expect an appeal.  NHL hands out the big suspension to show the refs they support them with full intentions of NHLPA appealing.In the end it will be dropped to be 7 -10 games, and everyone will be happy...except for wideman 

Exactly my thoughts when I saw the length of the suspension. Extra 10 games thrown in as "appeal buffer".

[Chalky]

27 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Clearly the league, after reviewing the entire circumstance, believed there was intent.  Plus, the Flames didn't follow concussion protocols, so even his team felt the player was not concussed.  

I wonder if the Flames had followed the protocol, would Wideman have had a better chance at using that as an excuse...reason, whatever you call it.  From the way the rule is written and the optics of the hit, 20 games seemed inevitable.

[SvenBae]

4 minutes ago, Fateless said:

The amount of unqualified lawyers claiming lack of concussion proves guilt on these forums is astounding. THAT'S NOT HOW INTENT WORKS. Just because a trainer deems he doesn't need to go to the quiet room DOES NOT mean that Wideman therefore had the requisite mens rea required for the 20 game suspension. That is an illogical chain of reasoning. 

Just because Wideman did not have a concussion does not mean he was capable of forming the requisite intent at the time of the collision. When you look at how unstable Wideman was on his feet on the way to the bench paired with his actions on the bench (completely keeled over and looking dazed) and being unaware of his collision - there is no way Wideman could have formed the proper mens rea.

This WILL get appealed. The NHL is taking a hardline stance (which is their right) but that doesn't mean the length of suspension is justified under the rules.

 

Like I addressed earlier how do you explain the checking motion? Given that there was indeed a deliberate motion towards hitting the referee and that the medical stuff deemed he was not "woozy" enough to be removed from play, certainly seems to suggest the nature of the intent. Whether that is true or not, is well, irrelevant. Despite your personal feelings on the subject, the evidence can be pretty clearly interpreted to suggest intent, and that's what the DOPS likely based their suspension on.

[TimberWolf]

The suspension is fair and I would not want to defend Wideman anyways but there is a tiny voice in my head wondering if he hit the first zebra he saw because he was clocked in the head on the play and no whistle at all.

 

If that's the case, while you shouldn't ever hit a ref it wouldn't surprise me if players are having enough of what is being let go. Not saying this is the case but an "I wonder"

[Alflives]

Just now, Fateless said:

Would love to see the medical report you're quoting where you say that the medical staff felt Wideman had full control of himself. The medical staff will only remove the player from the game if they aren't going to recover on the bench or if they have a concussion. We see players all the time get hit hard, head to the bench slowly and out of it and sit on the bench for a few shifts until they're ready to go again. 

Just because a trainer didn't pull him from the game DOES NOT MEAN he could therefore have had the proper intent. That chain of reasoning simply does not connect. There are way too many exceptions.

The medical staff determined (immediately) that the player was not "woozy", so there was not a need to send him to the quiet room.  The quiet room is used if there is suspicion of concussion.  If he was "woozy" he would have been sent to the quiet room to see if he was concussed.  That's the protocol.  This proves guilt, because the medical staff didn't send him to the quiet room, so clearly Wideman was displaying clear thought.  Guilty - He should have gotten the rest of the season.