DonLever

Donald J. Trump, 45th US President of the United States

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4 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I think thats why its important to dispassionately look at the effects of colonialism in these discussions, who benefitted at the time and who still does now around the world. If we could all just recognize that it takes the "blame" out of the conversation and maybe we can move forward on fixing the remaining effects of colonialism.  

I do not agree.

I believe people should be held accountable.

It would help with the healing process for the ancestors of those who were disposessed.

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Just now, Ilunga said:

A lot of white people Phil.

The treatment of indigenous people by the Europeans who settled the "new Worlds" was shameful.

Taking their land and more importantly destroying their cultures.

Our ancestors behaviour shames me.

I agree on that, without question. Instead of "white" though, I wonder if people could refer in retrospect to their homeland versus pigmentation.

 

As when the First Nations were being wiped out in North America, the Irish were being wiped out in Ireland. Both victims of the British empire and it's reign of terror. Both ended up surviving, to some degree, their prospective atrocities. In fact, many nations in North America at the time sent provisions to Ireland to help the people starving in the Famine.

 

Sadly, both Canada and the United States kept that imperialistic attitude over the First Nations effectively subjecting them to decades of federally sanctioned apartheid. It's disgusting, no doubt, but those who endeavor to do good should see the system for what it is and band together. 

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7 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

I agree on that, without question. Instead of "white" though, I wonder if people could refer in retrospect to their homeland versus pigmentation.

 

As when the First Nations were being wiped out in North America, the Irish were being wiped out in Ireland. Both victims of the British empire and it's reign of terror. Both ended up surviving, to some degree, their prospective atrocities. In fact, many nations in North America at the time sent provisions to Ireland to help the people starving in the Famine.

 

Sadly, both Canada and the United States kept that imperialistic attitude over the First Nations effectively subjecting them to decades of federally sanctioned apartheid. It's disgusting, no doubt, but those who endeavor to do good should see the system for what it is and band together. 

As we here in Australia have done to the Koori people.

This really makes me ashamed to call myself an Australian,even more so than the illegal detention of "asylum seekers" on Manus Island.

Edited by Ilunga

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10 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

I do not agree.

I believe people should be held accountable.

It would help with the healing process for the ancestors of those who were disposessed.

which people? you can't hold someone accountable for something they didn't do. 

 

But we can recognize that there are imbalances that still exist and correct them. 

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3 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

which people? you can't hold someone accountable for something they didn't do. 

 

But we can recognize that there are imbalances that still exist and correct them. 

You stated that we should look at the issue dispassionately and this would take the blame out of the discussion.

There is blame to be placed on the people that colonised places like our countries and America and by their descandants,us taking on that blame/responsibility  I believe that would help with the healing process.

 

I know if the current members of the hierarchy  the catholic church took on responsibility/blame for the actions of their predessors and apologised for seperating me and around 250,000 children from their mothers that would help me come to terms with what happened to me and my biological mother and siblings.

The Koori people here in Australia said the same thing.

When the then PM Kevin Rudd offered the national apology to the Koori stolen generation many of them stated they felt they could now move on more positively with their lives.

 

As I have stated so many frickin times, we keep making the same mistakes because so few of us admit we make mistakes.

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14 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

You stated that we should look at the issue dispassionately and this would take the blame out of the discussion.

There is blame to be placed on the people that colonised places like our countries and America and by their descandants,us taking on that blame/responsibility  I believe that would help with the healing process.

 

I know if the current members of the hierarchy  the catholic church took on responsibility/blame for the actions of their predessors and apologised for seperating me and around 250,000 children from their mothers that would help me come to terms with what happened to me and my biological mother and siblings.

The Koori people here in Australia said the same thing.

When the then PM Kevin Rudd offered the national apology to the Koori stolen generation many of them stated they felt they could now move on more positively with their lives.

 

As I have stated so many frickin times, we keep making the same mistakes because so few of us admit we make mistakes.

But there's a difference between an institutional or government level apology and blaming decedents for actions they couldn't possibly have had control over. 

 

My family is from Russia, showed up in Canada in the 1890s. They had nothing to do with the initial colonization, I doubt they knew a single thing about it. What blame lands on them? It doesn't make sense. 

 

What makes sense to me is taking the blame out of it, so that we can have an actual conversation on the things that need to be fixed. Looking at the massive inequality between first nations people and the rest of the Canadian population, its not going to be solved by blaming me or Phil for it. But if we can have a dispassionate look - i.e. not blaming people today for it - at history we can see the direct line between colonization and todays problems. Blaming people today just shuts down conversation. 

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4 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

But there's a difference between an institutional or government level apology and blaming decedents for actions they couldn't possibly have had control over. 

 

My family is from Russia, showed up in Canada in the 1890s. They had nothing to do with the initial colonization, I doubt they knew a single thing about it. What blame lands on them? It doesn't make sense. 

 

What makes sense to me is taking the blame out of it, so that we can have an actual conversation on the things that need to be fixed. Looking at the massive inequality between first nations people and the rest of the Canadian population, its not going to be solved by blaming me or Phil for it. But if we can have a dispassionate look - i.e. not blaming people today for it - at history we can see the direct line between colonization and todays problems. Blaming people today just shuts down conversation. 

You don't get it.

It is not about solving problems it is about helping people deal with past injustices 

If you had had your family,land or culture taken away from you I believe you would understand.

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7 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

You don't get it.

It is not about solving problems it is about helping people deal with past injustices 

If you had had your family,land or culture taken away from you I believe you would understand.

I do get it. Blaming people today who were not responsible for the actions just sets up barriers and we won't solve the problems.

 

Maybe you can explain to me how blaming me for what my ancestors did makes sense. 

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3 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I do get it. Blaming people today who were not responsible for the actions just sets up barriers and we won't solve the problems.

 

Maybe you can explain to me how blaming me for what my ancestors did makes sense. 

You still do not get.

It is not about me blaming the people who visited injustice upon me or others,it is about the people who had injustice visited upon them had that acknowledged and then had that injustice rectified.

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3 minutes ago, Ilunga said:

You still do not get.

It is not about me blaming the people who visited injustice upon me or others,it is about the people who had injustice visited upon them had that acknowledged and then had that injustice rectified.

I agree with that. What I'm saying is putting it in the language of blame for people today makes no sense. Its about how you start the conversation with those that are around today. 

Edited by Jimmy McGill

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I thought this is a Trump thread.  Came here to see what new lie he spouting. 

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1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

A lot of white people Phil.

The treatment of indigenous people by the Europeans who settled the "new Worlds" was shameful.

Taking their land and more importantly destroying their cultures.

Our ancestors behaviour shames me.

 

Imagine if the theory that the indigenous people/First Nations people originally came over from Asia during the ice age was actually true....Wouldn’t there be some irony in the belief that it’s these same people that are allegedly raising insane demand for housing prices (effectively taking back ownership of the land.property)?

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1 hour ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Imagine if the theory that the indigenous people/First Nations people originally came over from Asia during the ice age was actually true....Wouldn’t there be some irony in the belief that it’s these same people that are allegedly raising insane demand for housing prices (effectively taking back ownership of the land.property)?

Mate what is a fact is that we can all trace our ancestors back to Africa.

One day when the current BS in my life is over I am going to take the Ancestry DNA test to find out what path my ancestors took out of Africa.

 

What is another fact is that when Europeans first came to ,Canada ,Australia and America there were people who had existed/lived here for thousands of years,in our case here in Aus for over 40,000 years.

These people had their own culture that respected both the land and the fauna that existed with them.

They did not consider themselves owners of the land merely guardians to manage it and pass it on to the next genetations.

Most of these places were pristine and there was lots of resources for everyone.

Look what happened when the Europeans got here,using the Buffalo for example,there was 50- 100 million buffalo when they first  got herenwithin a few generations they were nearly wiped out.

It is our arrogant sense of ownership and our need to exploit the resources of our planet to have things we don't really need that is destroying the flora and fauna at an unprecedented rate.

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2 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I agree with that. What I'm saying is putting it in the language of blame for people today makes no sense. Its about how you start the conversation with those that are around today. 

How about "we are sorry for ?!;:?! You Over and we will do something to make it right".

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4 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

I agree on that, without question. Instead of "white" though, I wonder if people could refer in retrospect to their homeland versus pigmentation.

 

As when the First Nations were being wiped out in North America, the Irish were being wiped out in Ireland. Both victims of the British empire and it's reign of terror. Both ended up surviving, to some degree, their prospective atrocities. In fact, many nations in North America at the time sent provisions to Ireland to help the people starving in the Famine.

 

Sadly, both Canada and the United States kept that imperialistic attitude over the First Nations effectively subjecting them to decades of federally sanctioned apartheid. It's disgusting, no doubt, but those who endeavor to do good should see the system for what it is and band together. 

To be fair the US' approach was more so wholesale slaughter than what occurred in much of Canada. 

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1 hour ago, Ilunga said:

How about "we are sorry for ?!;:?! You Over and we will do something to make it right".

how about "we are sorry that you were &^@#ed over, and we'll do something to make it right?

 

what I'm trying to get through with this, probably badly, is getting to the point of breaking down silos in the conversation and getting to where people see things as a shared problem, instead of an us vs them. By using blame language you just keep the barriers up, imo. 

 

Edited by Jimmy McGill

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4 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

But there's a difference between an institutional or government level apology and blaming decedents for actions they couldn't possibly have had control over. 

 

My family is from Russia, showed up in Canada in the 1890s. They had nothing to do with the initial colonization, I doubt they knew a single thing about it. What blame lands on them? It doesn't make sense. 

 

What makes sense to me is taking the blame out of it, so that we can have an actual conversation on the things that need to be fixed. Looking at the massive inequality between first nations people and the rest of the Canadian population, its not going to be solved by blaming me or Phil for it. But if we can have a dispassionate look - i.e. not blaming people today for it - at history we can see the direct line between colonization and todays problems. Blaming people today just shuts down conversation. 

so there we have it

 

jimmy's family was transplanted from russia to canada some 130 years ago

as agents of the then russian empire

managing to enter canada due to lax immigration rules historically

and have continued to reside here since that time as a multi generational sleeper cell

 

i still have not been able to decipher what the end game is on this long term strategy

but i'm sure it will be revealed in the fullness of time

 

:bigblush:

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"We interrupt this discussion on whether the current generation bears some (or all) of the blame for the actions of our ancestors, with some discussion about Donald Trump" (sort of):

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/weather/topstories/a-grave-climate-warning-buried-on-black-friday/ar-BBQ2lxS?li=AAggNb9

 

Quote

 

On Friday, the busiest shopping day of the year, the federal government published a massive and dire new report on climate change. The report warns, repeatedly and directly, that climate change could soon imperil the American way of life, transforming every region of the country, imposing frustrating costs on the economy, and harming the health of virtually every citizen.

Most significantly, the National Climate Assessment — which is endorsed by NASA, NOAA, the Department of Defense, and 10 other federal scientific agencies — contradicts nearly every position taken on the issue by President Donald Trump. Where the president has insisted that fighting global warming will harm the economy, the report responds: Climate change, if left unchecked, could eventually cost the economy hundreds of billions of dollars per year, and kill thousands of Americans to boot. Where the president has said the climate will “probably” “change back,” the report replies: Many consequences of climate change will last for millennia, and some (such as the extinction of plant and animal species) will be permanent.

The report is a huge achievement for American science. It represents cumulative decades of work from more than 300 authors. Since 2015, scientists from across the U.S. government, state universities, and businesses have read thousands of studies, summarizing and collating them into this document. By law, a National Climate Assessment like this must be published every four years.

 

People have to realize that this denial by the current US administration, is causing real harm and it;s not just to the US. It isn't and shouldn't be looked at as a case of "Trump being Trump".

 

This is a threat to the entire planet and the people who throw out counter arguments like "the 97% number is disputed", or "polar bears were supposed to be extinct by now", are contributing to the damage. The evidence to support Anthropogenic Climate Change is equal to, or greater than the evidence that says smoking causes cancer.

 

If you really want to know what the truth is (instead of searching out articles that support your current position on the subject) I suggest you read the report: https://nca2018.globalchange.gov/

 

The real irony here is that CC deniers claim that Green initiatives will hurt the economy, but what they fail to understand is that the effects of CC will have a greater negative effect on economies all over the world. Just look at the cost of the hurricanes that hit the southeast this past year or so.

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9 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

"We interrupt this discussion on whether the current generation bears some (or all) of the blame for the actions of our ancestors, with some discussion about Donald Trump" (sort of):

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/weather/topstories/a-grave-climate-warning-buried-on-black-friday/ar-BBQ2lxS?li=AAggNb9

 

People have to realize that this denial by the current US administration, is causing real harm and it;s not just to the US. It isn't and shouldn't be looked at as a case of "Trump being Trump".

 

This is a threat to the entire planet and the people who throw out counter arguments like "the 97% number is disputed", or "polar bears were supposed to be extinct by now", are contributing to the damage. The evidence to support Anthropogenic Climate Change is equal to, or greater than the evidence that says smoking causes cancer.

 

If you really want to know what the truth is (instead of searching out articles that support your current position on the subject) I suggest you read the report: https://nca2018.globalchange.gov/

 

The real irony here is that CC deniers claim that Green initiatives will hurt the economy, but what they fail to understand is that the effects of CC will have a greater negative effect on economies all over the world. Just look at the cost of the hurricanes that hit the southeast this past year or so.

I unfortunately feel that this is going to fall upon deaf ears.

 

The only way certain people are going to take climate change seriously is if they experience the effects of it personally. Even then, I figure they'd blame it on something else.

Edited by Brad Marchand

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Just now, Brad Marchand said:

I unfortunately feel that you're preaching to the choir here.

 

The only way certain people are going to take climate change seriously is if they experience the effects of it personally. Even then, I figure they'd blame it on something else.

You're right, to an extent. Most of the people on these boards are smart enough to understand the reality of CC. However, there are still a few bastions of ignorance hanging around. They pop their heads up on occasion, although the majority have managed to get themselves banned for other reasons, although in most cases, there was some relation to Trump.

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