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StealthNuck

Brandon Sutter | #20 | C

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Just now, -AJ- said:

Do you have some numbers to back up those claims?

I watched every game this season, and I wasn't the only one that noticed that. Cheech, Shorty, and the radio guys Hirch and Batch echoed the same sentiment. Is it due to his injury? Could be. Either way, he was way worse defensively, couldn't get to loose pucks quick enough or get to pucks offensively. Stats aren't everything. There is a clear CLEAR upgrade in just flow of play when Gaudette was on ice in comparison to Sutter

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1 minute ago, filthycanuck said:

I watched every game this season, and I wasn't the only one that noticed that. Cheech, Shorty, and the radio guys Hirch and Batch echoed the same sentiment. Is it due to his injury? Could be. Either way, he was way worse defensively, couldn't get to loose pucks quick enough or get to pucks offensively. Stats aren't everything. There is a clear CLEAR upgrade in just flow of play when Gaudette was on ice in comparison to Sutter

So I'll take that as a no then.

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2 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

So I'll take that as a no then.

Wheres this stat that Sutter makes the team better? Last I checked we haven't been to the playoffs since he's been a Canuck the last 4 years. Enlighten us if you think you're so damn smart

 

If you want stats, Gauds played double the games and he's a -8. Sutter was a -12. Even statistically he's already outpaced Sutter. I don't give a rats ass if you're a moderator.

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5 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

Being a moderator has nothing to do with this point--I'm simply making a case based on hockey statistics. Any user could do the same if they wanted.

 

Points-per-game:

Sutter: 0.23

Gaudette: 0.21

 

Gaudette also had a Corsi below 50% while having a very high offensive zone start percentage (59.4%). This is noticeably worse than almost every player with offensive usages that high. Sutter had a poor Corsi, but his zone start was very very low at 31.0%, meaning he was used heavily in a defensive role, in contrast to Gaudette, who was given far more offensive opportunities that Sutter. I will grant you the +/- point, but it's weight is no greater than any other defensive stat.

 

Hits-per-game:

Sutter: 1.3

Gaudette: 0.9

 

This is particularly damning for Gaudette, as hits are known to be inversely correlated to possession, yet despite better overall possession numbers, Sutter actually hits-per-game than Gaudette.

 

Blocked Shots-per-game:

Sutter: 0.5

Gaudette: 0.3

 

Speaks for itself. Sutter plays a better defensive game than Gaudette.

 

Faceoff Percentage:

Sutter: 48.5%

Gaudette: 40.4%

 

As is common with young players, they're no good at face-offs--Gaudette is no different.

 

PK Time per game:

 

Gaudette: <0.01 minutes (5 seconds over the season)

Sutter: 3.13 minutes per game

 

Again, cementing the fact that Sutter has far fewer offensive opportunities and is used heavily for defense.

 

Honestly, I struggle to find a single statistic aside from ones taken out of context that support the hypothesis that Gaudette is better than Sutter. Keep in mind, this was a bad year for Sutter, I'm not contesting that. Imagine how much more better he is in an average year?

 

I would love Gaudette to become better than Sutter, but right now, Sutter heavily outperforms him defensively and is at worst equal to him offensively.

Might be good to give Gaudette some top line Utica minutes. We will see how well he is at camp though. He might surprise. 

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6 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

Wheres this stat that Sutter makes the team better? Last I checked we haven't been to the playoffs since he's been a Canuck the last 4 years. Enlighten us if you think you're so damn smart

 

If you want stats, Gauds played double the games and he's a -8. Sutter was a -12. Even statistically he's already outpaced Sutter. I don't give a rats ass if you're a moderator.

Gaud can't play the heavy defensive minutes just yet.  If he's playing 3C, Bo's line has to pick up more d-zone mins, which takes away from their o-zone starts.  With the added UFA players, I pretty sure most people want to see the top two lines (1a and 1b) getting top offensive mins.   Goals, goals, goals.

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I think Sutter returns as the #3C, and that's not so bad. He is good defensively and with faceoffs, and can provide a bit of offence occasionally. Is he overpaid? Yes. But can he still play? Yes. Gaudette and Schaller will probably start the season in Utica.  

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8 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

The problem is no teams won't. Im pretty sure Jim has tried getting something for Sutter just to unload his salary, even a 5th or 6th and still no takers. Sutter with his injury history, his salary, and his lack of production is nothing but an albatross to this team

You are pretty sure about that are you? You are pretty sure about a lot of things that you couldn't possibly know. Most of which are outright fabrications and completely ridiculous, just like that one.

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8 hours ago, -AJ- said:

Being a moderator has nothing to do with this point--I'm simply making a case based on hockey statistics. Any user could do the same if they wanted.

 

Points-per-game:

Sutter: 0.23

Gaudette: 0.21

 

Gaudette also had a Corsi below 50% while having a very high offensive zone start percentage (59.4%). This is noticeably worse than almost every player with offensive usages that high. Sutter had a poor Corsi, but his zone start was very very low at 31.0%, meaning he was used heavily in a defensive role, in contrast to Gaudette, who was given far more offensive opportunities that Sutter. I will grant you the +/- point, but it's weight is no greater than any other defensive stat.

 

Hits-per-game:

Sutter: 1.3

Gaudette: 0.9

 

This is particularly damning for Gaudette, as hits are known to be inversely correlated to possession, yet despite better overall possession numbers, Sutter actually hits-per-game than Gaudette.

 

Blocked Shots-per-game:

Sutter: 0.5

Gaudette: 0.3

 

Speaks for itself. Sutter plays a better defensive game than Gaudette.

 

Faceoff Percentage:

Sutter: 48.5%

Gaudette: 40.4%

 

As is common with young players, they're no good at face-offs--Gaudette is no different.

 

PK Time per game:

 

Gaudette: <0.01 minutes (5 seconds over the season)

Sutter: 3.13 minutes per game

 

Again, cementing the fact that Sutter has far fewer offensive opportunities and is used heavily for defense.

 

Honestly, I struggle to find a single statistic aside from ones taken out of context that support the hypothesis that Gaudette is better than Sutter. Keep in mind, this was a bad year for Sutter, I'm not contesting that. Imagine how much more better he is in an average year?

 

I would love Gaudette to become better than Sutter, but right now, Sutter heavily outperforms him defensively and is at worst equal to him offensively.

Not really here to argue back and forth how are these guys comparable sure they would both be 3rd on our centre depth chart but sutter gets17-19 minutes a night when healthy Guad gets sub 13....

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2 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

I think Sutter returns as the #3C, and that's not so bad. He is good defensively and with faceoffs, and can provide a bit of offence occasionally. Is he overpaid? Yes. But can he still play? Yes. Gaudette and Schaller will probably start the season in Utica.  

Honestly with how the cap and salaries have went up and keep slowly climibing up year after year. His contract isn't too bad really. If he returns to his 35-40 point form and has a full healthy season. 4ish mil for a guy like that is the going rate these days anyways. 

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What would be Sutter's value at the TD if he stays healthy?

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Sutter while injured a lot did have 17.28 TOI average. Gaudette had 10.57. I think that's all you need to know, really. AG is not ready to be a 3rd line center yet and Sutter's cap hit isn't that bad for what he provides if he can actually stay healthy.

 

Also, ice time around 10 mins is ok for MacEwen playing 4 games, it's not ok for someone being on the roster for a longer period unless you're a career 4th liner.

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Why haven't the Canucks tried him at 4th line centre like Bo did?  I think he is scrappy enough.

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48 minutes ago, dpn1 said:

Why haven't the Canucks tried him at 4th line centre like Bo did?  I think he is scrappy enough.

That's Beagle's job.  Well, maybe if Willie were still here.-_-

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11 hours ago, higgyfan said:

Gaud can't play the heavy defensive minutes just yet.  If he's playing 3C, Bo's line has to pick up more d-zone mins, which takes away from their o-zone starts.  With the added UFA players, I pretty sure most people want to see the top two lines (1a and 1b) getting top offensive mins.   Goals, goals, goals.

As much I agree with giving Bo o zone starts.....Bo played his best going up against the other teams top lines. In that way he reminds of Kesler.. 

I would like to see green try Miller bo and Jake cause that line can shut other's down and score..

Guad could play third line and replace Sutter since Sutter isn't a play maker which I think hurts the wingers we have.

( FYI just my opinion and I don't have stats to back up....just my two cents) 

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I don't mind keeping Sutter. He's a veteran presence the young players can rely upon so with his intangibles, he can bring things on the table that Gaudette can not. Guadette will get his NHL time but I see no problems making him earn his stripes as a call up. Plus I know Sutter will get injured at somepoint in the season just like I know the sun will come up the next morning so Guadette will get his chances with the big club.

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Which Sutter are we going to see this season? Are we going to see the defensive, hard playing guy who can chip in 30 points or are has he completely lost his mojo and will see see the Sutter we saw after he came back from injury?

 

If the former, I feel he has an important role on this team, and allows us to groom Gaudette properly.  If not, we need to find a way to move him and his contract - which would he exceptionally hard once other GMs see he is no longer a good contributor.

 

We will see.  A lot of people have written him off, but fully healthy and time to rest in the offseason might just provide us with the Sutter of old.  Fingers crossed.

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