Olli Juolevi | #48 | D

[WonderTwinPowers]

1 hour ago, krutovsdonut said:

hopefully nicely, but this type of offence talk talk does worry me with juolevi.  you see ryan johnson talking about him as an offensive / power play guy but that's a recent spin.  he was drafted as a top pair 2 way guy with transition skills not as a pp guy.  i do have a sneaking suspicion this may be part of the canucks trying to pump his tires up to move him in a trade.  that would explain the top pp minutes he was handed in utica.  

Or he was handed those minutes because he was the best player suited for them on the team? ... You can have your suspicions, personally I'll stick with logic. 

[aGENT]

23 minutes ago, mll said:

He doesn't seem to suggest that Juolevi will be a two-way defender that can be deployed in all situations.  He is deployed offensively and is not used on the PK in Utica.

 

23 minutes ago, mll said:

A good puck-moving, solid defenceman that can add offensively and hopefully defend the right way."

Sounds like a 2 way PMD to me.

Edited December 4, 2018 by aGENT

[krutovsdonut]

42 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Although those scenarios seem to demonstrate the differing opinions of Juolevi and how they feel about him currently.

thanks.  i guess i see all three scenarios as potentially plausible based on all the unknowns for me watching the guy on tv and reading comments on the interwebs.

 

  

 

 

[mll]

19 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

Sounds like a 2 way PMD to me.

He isn't used on the PK and apparently gets very heavy o-zone starts.  Sounds more like a Pouliot type of deployment.  Deployment not type of player - Agnew says he reminds him of Olli Maatta. 

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, mll said:

He isn't used on the PK and apparently gets very heavy o-zone starts.  Sounds more like a Pouliot type of deployment.  Deployment not type of player - Agnew says he reminds him of Olli Maatta. 

He's played 18 games in Utica. He's not a finished product (just a Finnish one  )

 

This is not dissimilar as to how he was used in Finland last year either. Low minutes, primarily easier/offensive usage to start and eventually more and harder minutes as he adapted and developed.

 

It's clear by your own post they intend to keep coaching him and see him, long term, as a 2 way PMD. Perhaps with a more offensive bent than outright defensive but able to play at both ends of the ice.

[mll]

45 minutes ago, aGENT said:

He's played 18 games in Utica. He's not a finished product (just a Finnish one  )

 

This is not dissimilar as to how he was used in Finland last year either. Low minutes, primarily easier/offensive usage to start and eventually more and harder minutes as he adapted and developed.

 

It's clear by your own post they intend to keep coaching him and see him, long term, as a 2 way PMD. Perhaps with a more offensive bent than outright defensive but able to play at both ends of the ice.

 

Benning was expecting to recall him this year but the injury has set that plan back (Botchford has been saying the plan was December).  Agnew says you don't want guys to go up early and have to come back down.  Maybe there's a disconnect between Benning/Agnew where Benning only expects to have Juolevi up for few games.  

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by mll

[aGENT]

10 minutes ago, mll said:

 

Benning was expecting to recall him this year but the injury has set that plan back (Botchford has been saying the plan was December).  Agnew says you don't want guys to go up early and have to come back down.  Maybe there's a disconnect between Benning/Agnew where Benning only expects to have Juolevi up for few games.  

 

I'm not sure what that has to do with what I wrote...

[Gurn]

31 minutes ago, mll said:

Benning was expecting to recall him this year but the injury has set that plan back (Botchford has been saying the plan was December).  Agnew says you don't want guys to go up early and have to come back down.

These are not mutually exclusive statements.

[mll]

18 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I'm not sure what that has to do with what I wrote...

Spending longer time in the AHL to develop a complete game - i.e. start as offensive D and then add the defensive side to become a two-way D

vs.

being already brought up to the NHL to stay which then shortcuts the two-way development part in the AHL.  I don't know if Benning is thinking like Agnew (once he is up don't come back) or if it's just for a look and he can then go back down and develop that two-way game and not just be a PP specialist which is where he seems to be at for now.  

 

 

[aGENT]

7 minutes ago, mll said:

Spending longer time in the AHL to develop a complete game - i.e. start as offensive D and then add the defensive side to become a two-way D

vs.

being already brought up to the NHL to stay which then shortcuts the two-way development part in the AHL.  I don't know if Benning is thinking like Agnew (once he is up don't come back) or if it's just for a look and he can then go back down and develop that two-way game and not just be a PP specialist which is where he seems to be at for now.  

 

 

You're relying on Botchford to support half of your 'argument'....

 

He may very well see some games later this season (though I doubt Dec). Ideally that means we've moved one or both of Edler/MDZ at/near the TDL and he's continued to progress and develop in the pretty large space of time between now and then. Or they could simply leave him down there to continue developing and recall the likes of Brisebois, Sautner, McEneny etc.

 

That said, even with time this year, if he still has room for improvement I have little doubt they'd start him back in Utica again next fall if they feel it's in his long term interest/development. I don't think they have any intention of aiming him at being a 'Pouliot'.

Edited December 4, 2018 by aGENT

[mll]

12 minutes ago, aGENT said:

You're relying on Botchford to support half of your 'argument'....

 

He may very well see some games later this season (though I doubt Dec). Ideally that means we've moved one or both of Edler/MDZ at/near the TDL and he's continued to progress and develop in the pretty large space of time between now and then. Or they could simply leave him down there to continue developing and recall the likes of Brisebois, Sautner, McEneny etc.

 

That said, even with time this year, if he still has room for improvement I have little doubt they'd start him back in Utica again next fall if they feel it's in his long term interest/development. I don't think they have any intention of aiming him at being a 'Pouliot'.

 

Yesterday Benning said they were hoping to recall him this year but his injury has set that plan back.  When drafted Benning described him as a two-way D that can play in any situation - that's why Agnew's comments are surprising and it feels like they've adjusted expectations.  We'll see where he ends up.

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by mll

[MoneypuckOverlord]

Olli Maatta is a fine dman, I have no question about that, that said I expect more with a 5th overall pick then a Maata like dman.

[GoldenAlien]

From the Province:

Quote

Canucks general manager Jim Benning said Monday that Baertschi would start skating soon, so Baertschi being on the ice Tuesday isn’t a big surprise.

 

He also skated earlier in the morning, alongside Brandon Sutter, who is recovering from a shoulder separation and not expected back until after Christmas, and Olli Juolevi, who suffered a knee injury with the American Hockey League’s Utica Comets and flew to Vancouver a week ago to be assessed by the Canucks’ medical staff.

Looks like Juolevi is already skating again!

[THINKER]

On 12/4/2018 at 1:20 PM, mll said:

He isn't used on the PK and apparently gets very heavy o-zone starts.  Sounds more like a Pouliot type of deployment.  Deployment not type of player - Agnew says he reminds him of Olli Maatta. 

 

Actually I think Pouliot or David Rundblad is a good comparison for what Juolevi has become.  Defensively he's not very good and hasn't developed at all since his rookie season.  Offensively, quite underwhelming.  Outside of his prowess on the PP, there isn't a whole lot there.  

 

At this point, in his D+3 season, I would say he's trending closer to being a bottom pair PP specialist than he is a solid 2-way top 4 defenseman.  An awful pick at 5.

[Rollieo Del Fuego]

1 minute ago, THINKER said:

 

Actually I think Pouliot or David Rundblad is a good comparison for what Juolevi has become.  Defensively he's not very good and hasn't developed at all since his rookie season.  Offensively, quite underwhelming.  Outside of his prowess on the PP, there isn't a whole lot there.  

 

At this point, in his D+3 season, I would say he's trending closer to being a bottom pair PP specialist than he is a solid 2-way top 4 defenseman.  An awful pick at 5.

Better put the other thinking cap on...the one your wearing is set on reverse....

 

....Joulevi is developing fine...unlike yourself...call yourself "thinker" and put up garbage like that....

 

 

[THINKER]

2 minutes ago, Rollieo Del Fuego said:

Better put the other thinking cap on...the one your wearing is set on reverse....

 

....Joulevi is developing fine...unlike yourself...call yourself "thinker" and put up garbage like that....

 

 

And what are you basing this on?

 

Most defensemen that are drafted in the top 10, who pan out as top 4 defensemen end up in the NHL in their Draft +2 season.  We're in Juolevi's Draft +3 season and he's having to be heavily sheltered in the AHL because defensively he's not very good.  He has an extreme offensive zone start deployment, yet only manages to put up points on the PP.

 

You're going to have to come up with more than "he's developing fine" when I'm bringing up facts in this discussion.  

[Rollieo Del Fuego]

1 minute ago, THINKER said:

And what are you basing this on?

 

Most defensemen that are drafted in the top 10, who pan out as top 4 defensemen end up in the NHL in their Draft +2 season.  We're in Juolevi's Draft +3 season and he's having to be heavily sheltered in the AHL because defensively he's not very good.  He has an extreme offensive zone start deployment, yet only manages to put up points on the PP.

 

You're going to have to come up with more than "he's developing fine" when I'm bringing up facts in this discussion.  

Those are not facts....most D. drafted in the top 10 do not reach the NHL until there D+3 year or later...it has always taken longer for D.,...these days it is taking only 3-4 years but 10-15 years ago it took 4-6 years for most D. to get a sniff.

 

Joulevi could come in now and be better than Pooalot or Dull Zonedout....in both ends of the ice and barring more injury time he will still make the team this year...

 

Just watch...!

[GritGrinder]

4 minutes ago, THINKER said:

And what are you basing this on?

 

Most defensemen that are drafted in the top 10, who pan out as top 4 defensemen end up in the NHL in their Draft +2 season.  We're in Juolevi's Draft +3 season and he's having to be heavily sheltered in the AHL because defensively he's not very good.  He has an extreme offensive zone start deployment, yet only manages to put up points on the PP.

 

You're going to have to come up with more than "he's developing fine" when I'm bringing up facts in this discussion.  

Oh no...don't bring up facts or stats to the CDC regulars. They can't handle that, they don't just have Canuck coloured glasses they have Canuck coloured contact lenses and if you point out facts or stats they start spinning and back pedaling and will ultimately drop generic nonsense like "he's developing fine"...

[THINKER]

3 minutes ago, Rollieo Del Fuego said:

Those are not facts....most D. drafted in the top 10 do not reach the NHL until there D+3 year or later...it has always taken longer for D.,...these days it is taking only 3-4 years but 10-15 years ago it took 4-6 years for most D. to get a sniff.

 

Joulevi could come in now and be better than Pooalot or Dull Zonedout....in both ends of the ice and barring more injury time he will still make the team this year...

 

Just watch...!

 

Actually those are facts:

 

Heiskanen

Sergachev

(throw in Chychrun and McAvoy too if you want, though they were outside the top 10)

Hanifin

Provorov

Werenski

Ekblad

Jones

Ristolainen

Murray

Rielly

Lindholm

Dumba

Trouba

 

Those who didn't:

Fleury

Nurse

Morin (drafted 11th though)

Reinhart

Pouliot

Koekkoek

 

This is going back to the 2012 draft.  

 

Those who made it by their D+2 seasons became successful.  Those who didn't, mostly aren't.  Nurse being the only one who seems okay, though I'm not sure I call him a top 4 on a good team.

 

[Warhippy]

20 minutes ago, THINKER said:

 

Actually those are facts:

 

Heiskanen:  Decent player so far

Sergachev:  Traded, playing middle 6 on one of the top offensive teams in the league, very sheltered

(throw in Chychrun and McAvoy too if you want, though they were outside the top 10) MacAvoy is a stud, Chychrun is an oft injured top 4 on a horrible team

Hanifin:  Top 5 pick, middle pairing minutes before his trade

Provorov:  Deep draft, was a cannot miss on a team with a desperate need

Werenski:  Stud

Ekblad:  Really?  The 1st overall pick is a comparable?

Jones:  Was billed as being the potential #2 in the Mackinnon draft.....

Ristolainen:  Plays solid minutes on a team that until this year was drafitng as high as consistently as the Oilers

Murray:  Was a meh pick that got good minutes on what was a bad team until the last 2+ seasons

Rielly:  A defensive nightmare still

Lindholm:  Sheltered on the Ducks while they were a powerhouse

Dumba:  Was all but a write off on an uber defensive wild team until his breakout last year

Trouba:  Is still a toss up in the middle on a stacked Jets team

 

Those who didn't:

Fleury:  Is a possible miss

Nurse:  Oilers ruined another great pick

Morin (drafted 11th though):  Cannot stay healthy and was hyped as a cannot miss guy

Reinhart:  That name is about as dependable as a Strome

Pouliot:  Meh, he's a serviceable player

Koekkoek:  Lost on a stacked Bolts team

 

This is going back to the 2012 draft.  

 

Those who made it by their D+2 seasons became successful.  Those who didn't, mostly aren't.  Nurse being the only one who seems okay, though I'm not sure I call him a top 4 on a good team.

 

Looking back, the context needed is how BAD many of those teams were that they gave almost pure rookies top 4 minutes, or how stacked they were that they could play and shelter those kids in top 4 roles.

 

Juolevi is FAR from a write off as EVERY hockey body that has worked with him says.  But what do we know, only the Euro coaches, Finnish WJC coaches, AHL coaches, London Knights etc all say he's got it.  But you're right.  D+3 instant gratfication I want my shiny toy or else he's a bust mentality has sunk it's teeth in to Vancouver again.

 

Like it or not, many top 10 picks miss.  Go through your parameters and list ALL of the top 10 players chosen since 2012 that have been utter misses or potential misses.

 

Juolevi, while injured and concerning due to it will be fine.