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Olli Juolevi | #48 | D


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32 minutes ago, gttxc said:

Haha you have to laugh a little at the irony here.  Just a little.  

 

You must to consider the opinion of someone who is disappointed by OJ’s development.  There is some truth there.  CDC is a discussion board that should be used to find out the truth, not a place where different opinions are harried into retreat.

 

I think joulevi is tracking OKAY.  I’m not putting the blame on anyone because drafting is a bit of a crap shoot.  Players develop at different rates and different ways and he is progressing, which is awesome.  And after seeing the devolpment of virtanen , I am hopeful!  

 

 

Haha.....let's talk irony. Two 2007 a/cs, both with almost zero activity. Both coming alive again at the same time ! I know it's just coincidence, but a sceptic might be amused.

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59 minutes ago, gttxc said:

Haha you have to laugh a little at the irony here.  Just a little.  

 

You must to consider the opinion of someone who is disappointed by OJ’s development.  There is some truth there.  CDC is a discussion board that should be used to find out the truth, not a place where different opinions are harried into retreat.

 

I think joulevi is tracking OKAY.  I’m not putting the blame on anyone because drafting is a bit of a crap shoot.  Players develop at different rates and different ways and he is progressing, which is awesome.  And after seeing the devolpment of virtanen , I am hopeful!  

 

 

Why is it ironic? I'm disappointed with Juolevi and I would rather they had picked Tkachuk or Keller but Juolevi is a Canuck and I'll support his development throughout his career.

 

My comment was directed at HFBoards. If I want to be infuriated, I'll take a trip over to their boards. It's like getting into the dirt and wading around with the pigs over there, as they insult Benning on a personal level and make ALS jokes about the guy. It's a cesspool and a pitchfork mob. I never thought I'd say this but they make CDC look measured and insightful. Perhaps, as an elder statesman on this site, I should have known better than to wade into a conversation halfway and comment on only one aspect of that conversation (HFBoards) but there's really not much irony here.

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5 minutes ago, nowhereman said:

Why is it ironic? I'm disappointed with Juolevi and I would rather they had picked Tkachuk or Keller but Juolevi is a Canuck and I'll support his development toward whatever he becomes. 

 

My comment was directed at HFBoards. If I want to be infuriated, I'll take a trip over to their boards. It's like getting into the dirt and wading around with the pigs over there, as they insult Benning on a personal level and make ALS jokes about the guy. It's a cesspool and a pitchfork mob. I never thought I'd say this but they make CDC look measured and insightful. 

Then irony I am referring to is “demonize and insult anyone who disagrees with them.” 

 

Nothing to do with joulevi but with criticizing hf with what is happening in this very thread.

 

 

But I gotta say I don’t spend much time in canucks section, just the prospects section of hf.  ALS jokes are not cool.  I was just trying to comment on some of the pitch forking that goes on here. I didn’t mean to take away from your criticism of hf, which seems well deserved.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, gttxc said:

Then irony I am referring to is “demonize and insult anyone who disagrees with them.” 

 

Nothing to do with joulevi but with criticizing hf with what is happening in this very thread.

 

 

But I gotta say I don’t spend much time in canucks section, just the prospects section of hf.  ALS jokes are not cool.  I was just trying to comment on some of the pitch forking that goes on here. I didn’t mean to take away from your criticism of hf, which seems well deserved.

 

 

Hay!  I take exception.  (hee hee hee)

 

Haying.jpg

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1 hour ago, gttxc said:

Then irony I am referring to is “demonize and insult anyone who disagrees with them.” 

 

Nothing to do with joulevi but with criticizing hf with what is happening in this very thread.

  

 

But I gotta say I don’t spend much time in canucks section, just the prospects section of hf.  ALS jokes are not cool.  I was just trying to comment on some of the pitch forking that goes on here. I didn’t mean to take away from your criticism of hf, which seems well deserved.

  

 

Ahh, I see. That said, I am not singling out any particular individuals on that section of the site but more referencing the mob mentality that has taken over and anyone with a differing opinion is quickly descended upon by an onslaught of attacks. It happens a lot on this site, as well, but I think it's usually Canucks supporters taking offense and defending their team. There are still plenty of measured posters on the HFBoards section but they been pretty much ostracized. 

 

I guess you could say I "left" CDC to frequent HFBoards but have returned here recently, since the constant negativity over there is nauseating (though I will still frequent the main boards and the history boards because there are some very interesting discussions about the rest of the NHL and NHL history). Personally, I prefer to take a more middle-of-the-road stance on the Canucks, acknowledging our management's faults while also commending them on their successes and hoping for improvement, but I still am constantly berated about even that mindset. It seems that unless you are vehemently against Benning, almost on a personal level, you can't even have a civil discussion without being called a "puck bunny". At least there are still some hopefuls on this site! :towel:

 

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1 minute ago, nowhereman said:

Ahh, I see. That said, I am not singling out any particular individuals on that section of the site but more referencing the mob mentality that has taken over and anyone with a differing opinion is quickly descended upon by an onslaught of attacks. It happens a lot on this site, as well, but I think it's usually Canucks supporters taking offense and defending their team. There are still plenty of measured posters on HFBoards section but they been pretty much ostracized. 

 

I guess you could say I "left" CDC to frequent HFBoards but have returned here recently, since the constant negativity over there is nauseating (though I will still frequent the main boards and the history boards because there are some very interesting discussions about the rest of the NHL and NHL history). Personally, I prefer to take a more middle-of-the-road stance on the Canucks, acknowledging our management's faults while also commending them on their successes and hoping for improvement, but I still am constantly berated about even that mindset. It seems that unless you are vehemently against Benning, almost on a personal level, you can't even have a civil discussion without being called a "puck bunny". At least there are still some hopefuls on this site! :towel:

 

HF boards are full of Leaf's fans.  The Canuck's board there, is pretty much Leaf's fans.  If you like the Leafs, that's the place for you.  If you hate the Leafs, like a real Canuck's fan, than coming here is best. 

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1 minute ago, Canuck Surfer said:

K thanx

 

That was a good post BTW.

thanks.  i think it gives a useful perspective to counter those who endlessly compare him to top 10 dman picks and call him a bust if he doesn't nhl debut d+3 when most of them do.  the sample size used to generate that critique is tiny and i don't see any probative value to comparing his progress to guys like erik gudbranson and jared cowan who were drafted top ten and nhl debuted ahead of juoleiv, but are not remotely comparable as hockey players or as to the traits that got them drafter, or as to their physical maturity when drafted, or as to what it actually means if they had an early nhl debut.  morrissey and chabot are top 20 draft picks to whom he compares fine, so far.

 

there are definitely similar highly drafted dmen juolevi is trailing on development.  oel is an example.  but there are also plenty of top pair dmen out there who never saw the nhl d+3. 

 

i think you can separate the player's development from his draft position, and still see traits that might result in a top pair dman here.  he has done enough that you would be excited about that possibility if he was a later draft pick.    

 

if you really want heads to explode, compare him to lidstrom, who on age (but not draft year) is so far tracking roughly the same as juolevi having played shl until he was 21 without greatly distinguishing himself.  the point is not to say he is another lidstrom, but to say you have to evaluate his progress against other dmen showing similar traits progress regardless of draft position and, if you do that, he still has time to more than make good.

 

having said all that, there are red flags about juolevi that have nothing whatever to do with his draft position.  there is smoke there that supports a narrative that he is not progressing the way you would want.  however, none of that smoke is definitive in my view, so i prefer to let this play out.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 12/4/2018 at 10:51 AM, krutovsdonut said:

 

no, for a dman.

 

josh morrissey and thomas chabot are recent examples of mid 1st round dman picks who spent time in the ahl in their d+3 seasons and turned out just fine.   

 

morrissey spent two years in junior after the draft then went to the ahl d+3 and got into a single nhl game

 

chabot also spent two years in junior after the draft.  he did get into a single nhl game d+2 then went back to junior.  for d+3 he played 13 games in the ahl and was called up and stuck.  

 

so, right now, juolevi with 18 games played is 5 ahl games behind chabot and tracking the same as morrissey.  arguably he is ahead of morrissey since he played last year in a pro league instead of junior.

 

incidentally, chabot was -10 in his 13 ahl d+3 games.  morrissey was -9 in 57 ahl games his d+3 ahl season.  and juolevi so far is out-ppg-ing both of them in the ahl.

 

so, on paper at least, he's as good a prospect as either of those guys.  with juolevi i think the glass half empty perspective tends to overlook that he still is a very decent prospect even if you discount the possibility he may still live up to his draft pick.

 

 

for moneypuck.  this was in response to a comment suggesting he was not progressing as well as a mid-first round pick.

 

since this is getting a lot of attention, pay attention to the words "on paper".  his available stats compare fine.  how his deployment and sheltering generating those stats compare i cannot say, nor can i say how their actual play on the ice compared.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, NUCKER67 said:

Juolevi is a pretty big guy, was the highest ranking Dman in the 2016 Draft, and he's got a high hockey IQ, from what I've heard. So, what's the problem?

He didn't play right out of his draft year, and win both the Norris and Calder in the same season while carrying the Canucks to the Stanley Cup. He's clearly a slacker.

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Just now, NUCKER67 said:

Juolevi is a pretty big guy, was the highest ranking Dman in the 2016 Draft, and he's got a high hockey IQ, from what I've heard. So, what's the problem?

So far his defensive positioning and lack of strength is holding him back. Gets pushed off the puck easily.  But offensively he’s been pretty good, and he sees the ice very well.  I like to mention some positives and negatives unlike some people yum sayin?

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23 hours ago, chilliwiggins said:

I seem to think  it was around a 67 % hit miss on a top 10 pick.   ask philly I wonder what they think of taking Nolan Patrick at #2 last year was the right call, mind you its early still

Lol.  My buddy STILL thinks he was a homerun.

 

I still think of him as Nolen "Stefan" Patrick

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32 minutes ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

So far his defensive positioning and lack of strength is holding him back. Gets pushed off the puck easily.  But offensively he’s been pretty good, and he sees the ice very well.  I like to mention some positives and negatives unlike some people yum sayin?

The more I see of him the more i'm reminded of Darnell Nurse. Obviously Nurse went straight to the NHL but he did not do well in his first few seasons. And is now at 23 starting to turn the corner as a pro and learning how to use his larger body better. And even then he still hasn't panned out as they really hoped for drating him 7th overall. I think the Canucks are taking the right path with Joulevi, the pay out is huge with this kid if you devolop him properly.

 

For every top pick Dman that went straight to the NHL in his draft year there is 10 X that amount for guys that get rushed too quickly to the NHL. For those guys it killed their development and mainly their confidence. Some finally came around and became good pros, but most just never even panned out beyond playing in the AHL.

 

I'll trust Salo on this one. He's high on Juolevi, and so am I. Call me back in another 2-3 years and tell me i'm wrong then. Till then lets just him keep developing on the farm. I've watched a few games this year and people are right, he needs to get stronger, work on his dzone coverage, and not get caught flat footed so much. But his vision, passing, and offensive insticts are there. Not every game, but i've seen enough to be ok where he is at right now. He will fine tune his game over time and turn the corner. Not worried.

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