SingleThorn Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 32 minutes ago, gttxc said: Haha you have to laugh a little at the irony here. Just a little. You must to consider the opinion of someone who is disappointed by OJ’s development. There is some truth there. CDC is a discussion board that should be used to find out the truth, not a place where different opinions are harried into retreat. I think joulevi is tracking OKAY. I’m not putting the blame on anyone because drafting is a bit of a crap shoot. Players develop at different rates and different ways and he is progressing, which is awesome. And after seeing the devolpment of virtanen , I am hopeful! Haha.....let's talk irony. Two 2007 a/cs, both with almost zero activity. Both coming alive again at the same time ! I know it's just coincidence, but a sceptic might be amused. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowhereman Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 (edited) 59 minutes ago, gttxc said: Haha you have to laugh a little at the irony here. Just a little. You must to consider the opinion of someone who is disappointed by OJ’s development. There is some truth there. CDC is a discussion board that should be used to find out the truth, not a place where different opinions are harried into retreat. I think joulevi is tracking OKAY. I’m not putting the blame on anyone because drafting is a bit of a crap shoot. Players develop at different rates and different ways and he is progressing, which is awesome. And after seeing the devolpment of virtanen , I am hopeful! Why is it ironic? I'm disappointed with Juolevi and I would rather they had picked Tkachuk or Keller but Juolevi is a Canuck and I'll support his development throughout his career. My comment was directed at HFBoards. If I want to be infuriated, I'll take a trip over to their boards. It's like getting into the dirt and wading around with the pigs over there, as they insult Benning on a personal level and make ALS jokes about the guy. It's a cesspool and a pitchfork mob. I never thought I'd say this but they make CDC look measured and insightful. Perhaps, as an elder statesman on this site, I should have known better than to wade into a conversation halfway and comment on only one aspect of that conversation (HFBoards) but there's really not much irony here. Edited December 6, 2018 by nowhereman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gttxc Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 5 minutes ago, nowhereman said: Why is it ironic? I'm disappointed with Juolevi and I would rather they had picked Tkachuk or Keller but Juolevi is a Canuck and I'll support his development toward whatever he becomes. My comment was directed at HFBoards. If I want to be infuriated, I'll take a trip over to their boards. It's like getting into the dirt and wading around with the pigs over there, as they insult Benning on a personal level and make ALS jokes about the guy. It's a cesspool and a pitchfork mob. I never thought I'd say this but they make CDC look measured and insightful. Then irony I am referring to is “demonize and insult anyone who disagrees with them.” Nothing to do with joulevi but with criticizing hf with what is happening in this very thread. But I gotta say I don’t spend much time in canucks section, just the prospects section of hf. ALS jokes are not cool. I was just trying to comment on some of the pitch forking that goes on here. I didn’t mean to take away from your criticism of hf, which seems well deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 21 minutes ago, gttxc said: Then irony I am referring to is “demonize and insult anyone who disagrees with them.” Nothing to do with joulevi but with criticizing hf with what is happening in this very thread. But I gotta say I don’t spend much time in canucks section, just the prospects section of hf. ALS jokes are not cool. I was just trying to comment on some of the pitch forking that goes on here. I didn’t mean to take away from your criticism of hf, which seems well deserved. Hay! I take exception. (hee hee hee) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post krutovsdonut Posted December 6, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 6, 2018 interesting discussion. i think of myself as on the fence on juolevi with significant misgivings, but on hfboards i am a juolevi lover. i just spent two years as a regular on the canuck board hfboards. i held my own for a long time and will debate any of those guys anytime anywhere on neutral ground. i left the canuck subforum there because it is not neutral ground. the mods there was were trolling me and editing or deleting my posts for no reason, and there was nothing i could do about it. they apply ridiculous rule interpretations against you they do not apply to their friends. i appealed moderation i thought was unfair so they started doing it without telling me. the real issue there is you cannot call out mods for bad behaviour or discuss it on the forum when they target you or target others. i have no idea how the owner of the site tolerates it. they relentlessly attack new posters there if they do not share the mob viewpoint. if it were my site, i'd fire every mod there and start again with people whose first and only qualification would be to moderate impartially and keep their own views separate. until then, it will be the toxic wasteland it has become with the personality disorder afflicted posters who thrive there being enabled by the mods, a few of whom are equally damaged. to give an example, i got a post deleted and was thread banned from the juolevi thread over there for posting the comparison i made to morrissey i posted a couple of pages ago here. i deliberately simply made the comparison without much commentary because at that time every second post i made was getting moderated. the mod said that the absolutely accurate factual comparison i made was trolling. i had to appeal to a more senior mod to get reinstated. i got reinstated and then a few days later i noticed a mod had quietly deleted the post again. that's not my idea of a discussion forum. now this go fund me thing is just proof positive. this is a sport and i am just a fan and i am happy to let nature take its course as far as who canuck ownership chooses to employ to run his team. what kind of psycho wants to spend money to get a guy fired from his dream job because of their subjective opinions on the internet about his decisions based on incomplete information in relation to their passtime? it's awful. 1 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 28 minutes ago, krutovsdonut said: comparison i made to morrissey What is the comparison? Im interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krutovsdonut Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 6 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: What is the comparison? Im interested. it's at page 504. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Canuck Surfer Posted December 6, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 6, 2018 Philly has forced patient development on guys like Sanheim, Hagg, Morin. Well, patient with the players. Not the GM. If you looked at Hagg's development, he looked like he took a step backwards when he tunrf 21 and was not called up? Now he is looking like a fantastic D man. Sanheim, who also looks good, and was the higher drafted prospect cant touch him. Both started becoming true regulars only at 22. And they don't have a natural LD role for Sanheim. Because he has to play behind Provorov, Ghost & Hagg. Over the past two years, they played (mostly, Hagg started to overtake) behind MacDonald. And the point, and using non lotto D, without buying into the bait about higher expectations because they are lotto D, is that regardless it is still best to develop them properly. A guy like Juolevi was drafted due to his uncanny poise with the puck. And ability, for example as displayed at WJC tourneys, that he had such poise when the game was played at pace & intensity. That almost always translates. But to be fair? Not because of substantial natural gifts of athleticism (such as with Hanifin). And he is having to ''learn'' to train and be fit at a level where he can boost his athleticism to the NHL level. That's hit and miss, see Virtanen in a forward who even then was gifted. But there was enough athleticism to project he would get there. Now has taken back to back injuries. And that happens in hockey. As soon as his body comes up to speed, he will be in the NHL and in the NHL a long time with his puck poise. Just my 2 cents. * Morin is hurt ATM And as a separate aside? His D partner Vitor Mete from London. Brought up too early. Not a lottery pick. But it is important to get the body, the skills, the experience at pace before a guy is truly unleashed. While we're at it, the mind. Don't want to blow guys confidence. As soon as Mete burst into the NHL, people bagged Juolevi here as well. He was ''carried?'' But Mete is also needing development at this time. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 19 minutes ago, krutovsdonut said: it's at page 504. K thanx That was a good post BTW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowhereman Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, gttxc said: Then irony I am referring to is “demonize and insult anyone who disagrees with them.” Nothing to do with joulevi but with criticizing hf with what is happening in this very thread. But I gotta say I don’t spend much time in canucks section, just the prospects section of hf. ALS jokes are not cool. I was just trying to comment on some of the pitch forking that goes on here. I didn’t mean to take away from your criticism of hf, which seems well deserved. Ahh, I see. That said, I am not singling out any particular individuals on that section of the site but more referencing the mob mentality that has taken over and anyone with a differing opinion is quickly descended upon by an onslaught of attacks. It happens a lot on this site, as well, but I think it's usually Canucks supporters taking offense and defending their team. There are still plenty of measured posters on the HFBoards section but they been pretty much ostracized. I guess you could say I "left" CDC to frequent HFBoards but have returned here recently, since the constant negativity over there is nauseating (though I will still frequent the main boards and the history boards because there are some very interesting discussions about the rest of the NHL and NHL history). Personally, I prefer to take a more middle-of-the-road stance on the Canucks, acknowledging our management's faults while also commending them on their successes and hoping for improvement, but I still am constantly berated about even that mindset. It seems that unless you are vehemently against Benning, almost on a personal level, you can't even have a civil discussion without being called a "puck bunny". At least there are still some hopefuls on this site! Edited December 6, 2018 by nowhereman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 1 minute ago, nowhereman said: Ahh, I see. That said, I am not singling out any particular individuals on that section of the site but more referencing the mob mentality that has taken over and anyone with a differing opinion is quickly descended upon by an onslaught of attacks. It happens a lot on this site, as well, but I think it's usually Canucks supporters taking offense and defending their team. There are still plenty of measured posters on HFBoards section but they been pretty much ostracized. I guess you could say I "left" CDC to frequent HFBoards but have returned here recently, since the constant negativity over there is nauseating (though I will still frequent the main boards and the history boards because there are some very interesting discussions about the rest of the NHL and NHL history). Personally, I prefer to take a more middle-of-the-road stance on the Canucks, acknowledging our management's faults while also commending them on their successes and hoping for improvement, but I still am constantly berated about even that mindset. It seems that unless you are vehemently against Benning, almost on a personal level, you can't even have a civil discussion without being called a "puck bunny". At least there are still some hopefuls on this site! HF boards are full of Leaf's fans. The Canuck's board there, is pretty much Leaf's fans. If you like the Leafs, that's the place for you. If you hate the Leafs, like a real Canuck's fan, than coming here is best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krutovsdonut Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 1 minute ago, Canuck Surfer said: K thanx That was a good post BTW. thanks. i think it gives a useful perspective to counter those who endlessly compare him to top 10 dman picks and call him a bust if he doesn't nhl debut d+3 when most of them do. the sample size used to generate that critique is tiny and i don't see any probative value to comparing his progress to guys like erik gudbranson and jared cowan who were drafted top ten and nhl debuted ahead of juoleiv, but are not remotely comparable as hockey players or as to the traits that got them drafter, or as to their physical maturity when drafted, or as to what it actually means if they had an early nhl debut. morrissey and chabot are top 20 draft picks to whom he compares fine, so far. there are definitely similar highly drafted dmen juolevi is trailing on development. oel is an example. but there are also plenty of top pair dmen out there who never saw the nhl d+3. i think you can separate the player's development from his draft position, and still see traits that might result in a top pair dman here. he has done enough that you would be excited about that possibility if he was a later draft pick. if you really want heads to explode, compare him to lidstrom, who on age (but not draft year) is so far tracking roughly the same as juolevi having played shl until he was 21 without greatly distinguishing himself. the point is not to say he is another lidstrom, but to say you have to evaluate his progress against other dmen showing similar traits progress regardless of draft position and, if you do that, he still has time to more than make good. having said all that, there are red flags about juolevi that have nothing whatever to do with his draft position. there is smoke there that supports a narrative that he is not progressing the way you would want. however, none of that smoke is definitive in my view, so i prefer to let this play out. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoneypuckOverlord Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 1 hour ago, krutovsdonut said: it's at page 504. Can link. I can’t find it. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucker 67 Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Juolevi is a pretty big guy, was the highest ranking Dman in the 2016 Draft, and he's got a high hockey IQ, from what I've heard. So, what's the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krutovsdonut Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 On 12/4/2018 at 10:51 AM, krutovsdonut said: no, for a dman. josh morrissey and thomas chabot are recent examples of mid 1st round dman picks who spent time in the ahl in their d+3 seasons and turned out just fine. morrissey spent two years in junior after the draft then went to the ahl d+3 and got into a single nhl game chabot also spent two years in junior after the draft. he did get into a single nhl game d+2 then went back to junior. for d+3 he played 13 games in the ahl and was called up and stuck. so, right now, juolevi with 18 games played is 5 ahl games behind chabot and tracking the same as morrissey. arguably he is ahead of morrissey since he played last year in a pro league instead of junior. incidentally, chabot was -10 in his 13 ahl d+3 games. morrissey was -9 in 57 ahl games his d+3 ahl season. and juolevi so far is out-ppg-ing both of them in the ahl. so, on paper at least, he's as good a prospect as either of those guys. with juolevi i think the glass half empty perspective tends to overlook that he still is a very decent prospect even if you discount the possibility he may still live up to his draft pick. for moneypuck. this was in response to a comment suggesting he was not progressing as well as a mid-first round pick. since this is getting a lot of attention, pay attention to the words "on paper". his available stats compare fine. how his deployment and sheltering generating those stats compare i cannot say, nor can i say how their actual play on the ice compared. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 1 minute ago, NUCKER67 said: Juolevi is a pretty big guy, was the highest ranking Dman in the 2016 Draft, and he's got a high hockey IQ, from what I've heard. So, what's the problem? He didn't play right out of his draft year, and win both the Norris and Calder in the same season while carrying the Canucks to the Stanley Cup. He's clearly a slacker. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoneypuckOverlord Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Just now, NUCKER67 said: Juolevi is a pretty big guy, was the highest ranking Dman in the 2016 Draft, and he's got a high hockey IQ, from what I've heard. So, what's the problem? So far his defensive positioning and lack of strength is holding him back. Gets pushed off the puck easily. But offensively he’s been pretty good, and he sees the ice very well. I like to mention some positives and negatives unlike some people yum sayin? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 23 hours ago, chilliwiggins said: I seem to think it was around a 67 % hit miss on a top 10 pick. ask philly I wonder what they think of taking Nolan Patrick at #2 last year was the right call, mind you its early still Lol. My buddy STILL thinks he was a homerun. I still think of him as Nolen "Stefan" Patrick 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attila Umbrus Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 32 minutes ago, MoneypuckOverlord said: So far his defensive positioning and lack of strength is holding him back. Gets pushed off the puck easily. But offensively he’s been pretty good, and he sees the ice very well. I like to mention some positives and negatives unlike some people yum sayin? The more I see of him the more i'm reminded of Darnell Nurse. Obviously Nurse went straight to the NHL but he did not do well in his first few seasons. And is now at 23 starting to turn the corner as a pro and learning how to use his larger body better. And even then he still hasn't panned out as they really hoped for drating him 7th overall. I think the Canucks are taking the right path with Joulevi, the pay out is huge with this kid if you devolop him properly. For every top pick Dman that went straight to the NHL in his draft year there is 10 X that amount for guys that get rushed too quickly to the NHL. For those guys it killed their development and mainly their confidence. Some finally came around and became good pros, but most just never even panned out beyond playing in the AHL. I'll trust Salo on this one. He's high on Juolevi, and so am I. Call me back in another 2-3 years and tell me i'm wrong then. Till then lets just him keep developing on the farm. I've watched a few games this year and people are right, he needs to get stronger, work on his dzone coverage, and not get caught flat footed so much. But his vision, passing, and offensive insticts are there. Not every game, but i've seen enough to be ok where he is at right now. He will fine tune his game over time and turn the corner. Not worried. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Warhippy Posted December 6, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 6, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, THINKER said: No one is writing him off. I’m simply saying he isn’t tracking well. And if you’re being honest about this discussion that’s not something you can really disagree with. Tracking well based on what? His European coach called him world class. Utica calls him a stalwart. Tracking well meaning not near the top of rookie D scoring or? Cause he is 18 hours ago, THINKER said: He's not tracking well because his development hasn't gone well. Offensively, outside of on the PP he's not very good, and defensively he's still a mess. Development hasn't gone well. Gotcha. Except it has. He's 1st pairing in Utica on a defensive team that has been destroyed by injuries and is still middle of the pack in the standings. His coach, ice time and zone starts say you're wring 18 hours ago, THINKER said: No, I'm saying because he's in his Draft +3 season and still has to be sheltered because he's not good defensively and doesn't put up much offense outside of the PP that he's not tracking well. But I get it. You don't like people who shed reality on your fantasy. It's okay to not care about the facts and just hope everything works out. Just don't get upset at those who discuss reality. Sheltered? I dare you to post corroborating evidence to back that up. You're speaking of fantasy but haven't once posted anything that is realistic 17 hours ago, THINKER said: I have watched the games. I do so without my homer glasses on. Funny how you think it's trolling just to have an educated opinion on the subject matter. I dare say you haven't watched many games and have yet to post anything remotely educated about this matter 16 hours ago, THINKER said: Not a liar at all, but I do get why you would be upset to hear that one of Benning's big draft picks isn't tracking well. I'm also not the only one who sees this. Even Botchford stated in one of his Athletties that Juolevi doesn't have much trade value right now, and that a scout he spoke with basically said that Juolevi hasn't developed since his draft year. Draft +3 season. Stop trying to minimize the time period. Trade value? Botchford? Draft +3 hasn't played an NHL season yet. Total write off. Just like the following players on D listed as the top fantasy D this year who took 2 or 3 years or more to develop Burns Carlson Byfuglien Josi Barrie Giordano Subban And so many more. This is where you come back and mumble something about draft placement and how 5th overall picks need to be home runs then I return with how Lidstrom was drafted 53rd overall and Bill Guerin was 5th stuffed between Stu Barnes and Adam Bennett Edited December 6, 2018 by Warhippy 1 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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