Olli Juolevi | #48 | D

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

I've been resisting the urge to wade into this debate, but I feel the need to address a few things.

1. No one has attacked Juolevi here. People have given their opinion (on both sides of the ledger) regarding where he is development wise from a fan perspective. Now if someone stated that "Juolevi is a loser and should be frozen under the rink!", I'd call that an attack. Merely giving an opinion/observation/assumption is not an attack.
2. Being a fan of the sport before a team is always of benefit, as it gives one a greater viewpoint in which to perceive the play and performance of the players on the team that they enjoy. Personally, I love the game of hockey, and do appreciate what various players around the league bring. However, once a game is on that involves the Canucks, my bias is intact. That being said, if an opposing player makes a great play/hit/save, I can (and do) appreciate it, as it makes the game worth watching.
3. Once the playoffs started and I was watching, I pulled for certain teams in each series, and enjoyed it. Was it of the same fever pitch that I do when the Canucks play? No.

I hear what you're saying Alf, and do see that some folks out there tend to focus on the derision side of certain players.  

You’re a wise Orca Phil.  

[PhillipBlunt]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

You’re a wise Orca Phil.  

Edited July 26, 2019 by PhillipBlunt

[cyoung]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Do you love the Canucks, or do you have other teams you like too?  That’s the difference.  It’s a discussion board, but many Canuck’s fans don’t have other teams they cheer for too.  By the definition of fanatic, how can a true fan have more than one team they pull for?

Hence, those who attack our future (our young players) are not truly fans.  IMO.  

Guess im not a true fan. By your definition haha. I just love the game and vans my team but im constantly cheering for other teams, not over van tho.

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, cyoung said:

Guess im not a true fan. By your definition haha. I just love the game and vans my team but im constantly cheering for other teams, not over van tho.

True fan was a poor choice of words by me.  Crazy fan is better.  Sorry about that.  Crazy fans only cheer for their team.  There are no backup teams that are liked.  We pull for our young guys to be great, and hope for other teams’ young guys to bustaroo.  It’s all about our team’s best chance to win.  

[cyoung]

18 minutes ago, Alflives said:

True fan was a poor choice of words by me.  Crazy fan is better.  Sorry about that.  Crazy fans only cheer for their team.  There are no backup teams that are liked.  We pull for our young guys to be great, and hope for other teams’ young guys to bustaroo.  It’s all about our team’s best chance to win.  

Hahaha I get what you mean haha. I just wanna see the best hockey be played.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

2 hours ago, nzan said:

Was he wrong though?

I looked at the link posted above - Juolevi really had a top 20 PPG in that league's history for a D man at U20? Am I reading this right? How is that not historic?

I can agree it's not historic like Pettersson's U20 in the SHL, but that still is pretty amazing. I would call it historic.

It’s a very low bar. Typically if young european players are any good they will already be in North America prior to their D+2 season as they are typically eligible to go into the AHL. Barkov, Heiskanen, Risto, rantanen, teravainen, aho, vaakanainen. Valimaki, are all examples of this.

 

Juolevi came over early and lost his AHL eligibility so he was able to go back on a loan and play.   Like is said putting up .5 ppg in a men’s league as a 20 year old is impressive. It’s not historic by any means when you start to consider the context. 

 

 

 

Also If that’s historic then what would you consider sergachev putting up the 16th highest offensive season by a U20 D in the NHL?  

 

Same criteria, same year. One player playing in the best league in the world, the other league not so much.

 

[Westcoasting]

Anyone have any comments about Bob McKenzie sometime in December was going on about how good Quinn Hughes was looking and then said ... which is great news to management as it seems OJ has stalled in his development and there is a concern... or something very close to that. Then he was not on Craig's list of top prospects. I see a lot of fans waving pom poms but these guys are connected to teams way more than any of us out here, just curious about peoples thoughts on that.

[MoneypuckOverlord]

2 hours ago, Westcoasting said:

Anyone have any comments about Bob McKenzie sometime in December was going on about how good Quinn Hughes was looking and then said ... which is great news to management as it seems OJ has stalled in his development and there is a concern... or something very close to that. Then he was not on Craig's list of top prospects. I see a lot of fans waving pom poms but these guys are connected to teams way more than any of us out here, just curious about peoples thoughts on that.

its their opinion and it's fine.  Of course his development stalled since he was injured.  LOL no $&!#.  it's fine, Button still praises Juolevi and thinks he will be a solid player.

[Westcoasting]

22 minutes ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

its their opinion and it's fine.  Of course his development stalled since he was injured.  LOL no $&!#.  it's fine, Button still praises Juolevi and thinks he will be a solid player.

No this was before his injury. And he was stating that Vancouver management  were concerned about OJ's development.

[Crabcakes]

8 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

It’s a very low bar. Typically if young european players are any good they will already be in North America prior to their D+2 season as they are typically eligible to go into the AHL. Barkov, Heiskanen, Risto, rantanen, teravainen, aho, vaakanainen. Valimaki, are all examples of this.

 

Juolevi came over early and lost his AHL eligibility so he was able to go back on a loan and play.   Like is said putting up .5 ppg in a men’s league as a 20 year old is impressive. It’s not historic by any means when you start to consider the context. 

 

 

 

Also If that’s historic then what would you consider sergachev putting up the 16th highest offensive season by a U20 D in the NHL?  

 

Same criteria, same year. One player playing in the best league in the world, the other league not so much.

 

I'm willing to cut Juolevi some slack.  There's the knee and the back, both injuries that one can recover from completely today.  Then there was his failure in his D+1 year which I put up to immaturity with respect to how he spent his summer and he never really recovered from that (which is not unusual).

 

I think that next season's performance is one that we can place some judgement upon.   The kid is 21, this is his D+3 year coming up.  He has only had 2 seasons since he was drafted.  Is that a serious setback?  Maybe a setback but I'm not so sure events have put him significantly behind the ceiling that Benning saw in 2016.   I'm not willing to dump over the kid just yet. 

[JC2]

There's nothing wrong with a healthy debate, pointing out flaws or simply being optimistic but can we not all at least wait till he actually plays before passing final judgement? He's not old and he's not a bust but no doubt he has a lot of ground to cover to live up to his draft position. I for one choose to be optimistic but cautious. I see him being an NHL player but it's a matter of him being a top 2, 4 or bottom 6. 

[Standing_Tall#37]

On 7/25/2019 at 10:10 PM, Rob_Zepp said:

About what?   That OJ is a stud prospect and had an excellent first year as a pro in Finland?    Yup - very much so.    You and others can wallow away in a narrative that will not be rewarded.....knock yourselves out.   Seriously.   

Why is McDavid in the finish League? Why didn’t Crosby there? Why didn’t New Jersey send Jack Hughes there for development?  It’s seriously the equivalent of the ECHL. The AHL holds more skill as a professional league, as does the KHL. 

 

 

But its okay, I’m sure Joulevi will have a great 4-5 year nhl career. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

6 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

I'm willing to cut Juolevi some slack.  There's the knee and the back, both injuries that one can recover from completely today.  Then there was his failure in his D+1 year which I put up to immaturity with respect to how he spent his summer and he never really recovered from that (which is not unusual).

 

I think that next season's performance is one that we can place some judgement upon.   The kid is 21, this is his D+3 year coming up.  He has only had 2 seasons since he was drafted.  Is that a serious setback?  Maybe a setback but I'm not so sure events have put him significantly behind the ceiling that Benning saw in 2016.   I'm not willing to dump over the kid just yet. 

I’m definitely willing to cut him some slack, I’m just not going to overhype him and pretend he’s shown he will become even more than he was originally drafted as.  His injuries have really set him back. This is his actually his D+4 year he’s going into though. First year was back in London, second year was Finland, third year was AHL. Two major injuries will hinder his timeline.  

[canucklehead44]

I was not a fan of the Juolevi pick at the time and still have my doubts about him. That said, other than his injury and other players getting to the NHL quicker there isn't really much reason to complain.

1. His +1 draft year his numbers were flat, yet he went from a team with Marner, Dvorak, Tkachuk to a team lead by Cliff Pu. Also when you look at Sergachev his goal totals dropped from 17 goals to 10 goals in his +1 and he had success as a rookie the following year in the NHL.

 

2. He went to Finland as that was an opportunity to work under Salo and play against men in an environment that would allow him to physically and mentally mature. While his numbers don't look eye popping they were actually very strong. I pulled up a list of every Finnish defenseman to play in the NHL since the 90s and he is way up the list. Pitkanen's 20 points in 35 games doesn't blow Juolevi's 18 in 38 out of the water and he was near a point per game in his sophomore NHL year. Heiskanen is the other player who was higher (23 in 30) and after his rookie year would not be surprised if he became a 60 point defenseman. 

3. In the AHL he had to adjust and still put up 13 in 18 on a team that doesn't score a lot. In fact, if he had just one more point he would have tied for third in defenseman scoring for the year...with 18 games played. 

 

When I ran all the numbers for his comparables it put him at a around a 38 point level in the NHL. Not amazing for a 5th overall pick but I think we can live with it. That said, if he is a 30-40 point defenseman who can also kill penalties and play on the top pairing then that is expected production. If he is a 30-40 point defenseman who is a liability then still not a great pick but not a bust either. 

[Jester13]

The moral of the story is this is OJ's year to make the next step. Granted, another injury setback will make that jump challenging, but he will have to either battle through that or faulter and likely bust at that point. He just can't afford another setback. 

[18W-40C-6W]

21 hours ago, Jtutino said:

I think the Canucks fans have a right to be concerned with Ollis development, The kid has only played 56 games of pro hockey and has spent more time the last 2 years rehabbing than he has on the ice. Take this summer, hes be working just to get back to where he was. My hopes for Olli this year is that he gets to play at least 60 games whether that be in Vancouver or Utica. I like his offensive game but like most young D turning pro, he needs to work on his game in his own zone. that -12 in 18 is ugly.

He was also -11 in like the first 7 games or so. He adjusted quickly after that bad start and as above plus / minus is never really a great stat. It’s more a team stat than individual 

[18W-40C-6W]

21 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

No Josi a true number one D who puts up 60 point seasons while playing 25 min a night. That is not what Juolevi was drafted to be. That is your own made up narrative.

 

Not even JB expects that out of juolevi. JB clearly stated in his draft year that he didn’t believe Juolevi would be a #1 guy, that he could be a top pairing D but not #1. It’s people like you that create these fairytales.

 

Tryamkin the next chara, jake the next bertuzzi, zhukenov the next datsyuk. Seriously why can you just let the players develop and not set these high, unrealistic expectations....and if the don’t turn out, oh well move on no GM is perfect, so why do some feel the need act as if he is.  

 

 

What I don’t seem to understand is you somehow seem believe your “opinion” on what a player’s ceiling is, is somehow fact. 

 

I don’t propose that OJ “WILL” be Josi 2.0, but rather he has that potential. Roman Josi didn’t have Roman Josi potential when drafted did he? If so why was a number 1 dman taken in the second round? Ie see Shay Weber, Subban, Keith, many others. That’s the funny thing about drafting, you never really know until a while into their career what they will actually be! 

 

Also, my (or anyone else’s) opinion on a message board won’t put any pressure on the “little guy”, I’m sure he’s confident in himself and isn’t too worried about what pressure comes from fans on social media, so don’t worry yourself to sleep at night that some guy with numbers as his name will put so much pressure on OJ he’ll bust! Your red herring argument is nonsense and trying to deflect from your OJ bashing. We get it, you wanted Tkachuk.

 

By the way, since you’re psychic and can see so clearly into the future, can you tell me what tonight’s 6-49 numbers will be? Please DM me as I don’t want to split the pot with others here! Thanks!

[18W-40C-6W]

9 hours ago, Westcoasting said:

No this was before his injury. And he was stating that Vancouver management  were concerned about OJ's development.

He’s been injured 2 seasons in a row, and missed a lot of games. Of course management is concerned with his development. He’s missed a lot of hockey 

[Westcoasting]

25 minutes ago, 18W-40C-6W said:

He’s been injured 2 seasons in a row, and missed a lot of games. Of course management is concerned with his development. He’s missed a lot of hockey 

Yep especially when they think development has stalled... then the second major injury happens.

 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

6 hours ago, 18W-40C-6W said:

What I don’t seem to understand is you somehow seem believe your “opinion” on what a player’s ceiling is, is somehow fact. 

My opinion?  That was Jim Bennings opinion. But you’re the expertzz that’s claiming he’s going to be a top 10 D in the league.

 

Ceiling projection is evaluating what you know and making a calculated estimate on the probability.  Key word is calculated. It’s why stating something like say, Lind could become the next Crosby is not accepted truth, even though yes, we don’t know the future. 

 

The fact that you are correlating me saying he’s more likely to be toping out as a solid second pairing guy, to me having a hidden agenda of calling him a bust shows how delusional you are on this matter.

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by ForsbergTheGreat