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12 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

And NO, +/- does not work the way you did it...….PP points are not in the calculation at all....nor are any +/- given for PP or PK just for the record

Well, technically you are correct, but a shortie does count for +/ - purposes.  But OJ wasn't on the ice for any short handed goals against the power play or any for the PK units

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1 hour ago, Ray_Cathode said:

Being -1 per game extended to 82 games is -82. -82 for any defenceman is absolutely terrible. Three defensive pairings like that would be a total disaster. I think you should just say something else.

You need to get the math right though.  Yes, you can extrapolate that he would be on the ice even strength for 82 goals against, but he would also be on the ice for 23 goals for at even strength.

He was -12 in 18 games, not -18

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Googlie said:

Well, technically you are correct, but a shortie does count for +/ - purposes.  But OJ wasn't on the ice for any short handed goals against the power play or any for the PK units

 

By early November he had been on the ice for 3 short-handed goals against.  Was still early in his transition from Liiga to the AHL - they had played maybe 12 games.  Don't know if there were more after that.  The Comets did end up with 19 short-handed goals against on the season - worst record in the league.

 

Edited by mll
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8 hours ago, Pete M said:

 

just stating facts dudes...when another poster is pointing out facts as well...OJ's has potential and he will be an NHLer, but the 18pts with "-12" tells me he has some development to do on his "D" game at the pro level compared to some other "D" who are on the same crappy team. (by the way, the team wasn't crappy until they lost Sautner, Schenn, Blujus and Brisebois ...all "+" players).

Your "facts" don't mean anything.

 

2018/19 Worst +/-:

-34 Doughty - yeah reall crappy D man

-28 Larsson - again real crappy D man

-20 Gost - again real crappy D man

-20 Montour - again real crappy D man

 

Der...the stats say they suck!!!!   ::D

 

You need to do a little light reading on Statistics and learn something about them before you try and throw them around and say they mean something. When you do crack open that book look for "Sample Size".  Just a little tip there pal.  :frantic:

 

 

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8 hours ago, MoneypuckOverlord said:

 

 

I rather comments like this then the crap that is said about him on hfboards.   worse is they are coming from Canucks fans. 

hfboard Canucks is a sewer with no real Canuck fans other than a hardcore few. Some of the posters that have 10s of thousands of posts are the biggest joke of all over there.

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6 hours ago, Googlie said:

He had 13 points in 18 games, not 18 points.

 

8 of his 13 were PP points, thus not factoring on plus minus stats.

 

He had 5 points at 5 on 5, was a -12, so was on the ice for 17 goals at 5 on 5 (or maybe 4 on 4 or 3 on 3. - the advanced stats don't differentiate), so conceding 1 goal per game at even strength when playing as the top defenseman isn't indicative of a shoddy defenseman at all.

 

Just sayin'

Nice post....not sure he will get 'actual' stats but I appreciated the info.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Pete M said:

nothing against OJ... however, there were good players on the team that were "+" players ....they too played on this crappy team. OJ still has some development to do with his "D" game.

InkedCapture_LI.jpg

Juolevi didn’t play a single game with Demko. You know, the only good goalie to have suited up for the Comets? The only one with an above .900 save %? Oh right, you’re nitpicking stats... congrats 

Edited by HorvatToBaertschi
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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

Being -1 per game extended to 82 games is -82. -82 for any defenceman is absolutely terrible. Three defensive pairings like that would be a total disaster. I think you should just say something else.

1) He was not -1 per game.

2) Projecting a tiny sample size to a full season is something only a person completely ignorant of statistics would think has significance, especially when,

3):

On July 27, 2019 at 7:33 AM, 18W-40C-6W said:

He was also -11 in like the first 7 games or so. He adjusted quickly after that bad start and as above plus / minus is never really a great stat. It’s more a team stat than individual 

That tiny negative sample was largely produced during his first couple of weeks of adjusting to a new team in a new league (with a nagging knee injury), which no sentient person would believe accurately represents his playing ability.

Edited by WeneedLumme
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7 hours ago, mll said:

Associate coach Agnew who is responsible for the Ds in Utica gave a lengthy interview on Juolevi back in mid-November - it's behind the Athletic's paywall and some extracts have been posted in this thread at the time.  He was asked about Juolevi's +/- as it was the worst mark on the team back then.  

 

He didn't think Juolevi was responsible for all those minuses but did say that "when there's a little bit of a trend, there's a trend."  He went on to talk of how they are working with him on that and how receptive he is to coaching.  

 

He needs some more development time.  Agnew talked of how he had to learn how to play at AHL pace before being able to play at NHL pace.   In terms of readiness at the time of the interview he had Brisebois, Sautner and Chatfield ahead of him.  

 

Is anyone suggesting he doesn't need more development time? +/- is a stat that can easily be turned around, so not too worried about his progression is +/- is the worst statistic people can pull up.

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3 hours ago, HorvatToBaertschi said:

Juolevi didn’t play a single game with Demko. You know, the only good goalie to have suited up for the Comets? The only one with an above .900 save %? Oh right, you’re nitpicking stats... congrats 

@Pete M He also noted all the pluses were AHL veterans too.

 

For a sample size of 18 games. Juolevi did really well.

Part of the reason why he did bad was because of a lingering injury which he is now 100 percent for.

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8 hours ago, mll said:

 

By early November he had been on the ice for 3 short-handed goals against.  Was still early in his transition from Liiga to the AHL - they had played maybe 12 games.  Don't know if there were more after that.  The Comets did end up with 19 short-handed goals against on the season - worst record in the league.

 

Thanks, yes - my mistake. (I read the stat "SHA" as short handed against. But it is short handed assists)

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10 hours ago, mll said:

He needs some more development time.  Agnew talked of how he had to learn how to play at AHL pace before being able to play at NHL pace.   In terms of readiness at the time of the interview he had Brisebois, Sautner and Chatfield ahead of him.  

 

Of course he needs more development, mll.  The kid has played all of 56 games since he was in Jrs. and has had a lot of rehabbing from injuries.  Those 3 dmen that Agnew mentions as more nhl ready are 2 - 4 years older than OJ, so I would think they should be getting close (although Sautner at 25yrs old is a long shot and the other 2 will probably be bottom pairing dmen).  Even with just 18 games, OJ put up more points than any of them.  

 

OJ has the luxury of time, which the others don't really have.  A healthy season in Utica (with some callups if ready) will round out his game for the NHL and the Canucks will have another dman with offensive upside.

 

 

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Led Zeppelin - When the Levee Breaks

 

If it keeps on rainin' (in Vancouver)
Juolevi's goin' to break
If it keeps on rainin'
Juolevi's goin' to break
When Juolevi breaks
He'll have no place to play

 

(off season bored)

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57 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

Of course he needs more development, mll.  The kid has played all of 56 games since he was in Jrs. and has had a lot of rehabbing from injuries.  Those 3 dmen that Agnew mentions as more nhl ready are 2 - 4 years older than OJ, so I would think they should be getting close (although Sautner at 25yrs old is a long shot and the other 2 will probably be bottom pairing dmen).  Even with just 18 games, OJ put up more points than any of them.  

 

OJ has the luxury of time, which the others don't really have.  A healthy season in Utica (with some callups if ready) will round out his game for the NHL and the Canucks will have another dman with offensive upside.

 

 

To be honest I haven't seen Chatfield or Briesbois but I had a good look at Sautner and frankly couldn't pick many deficiencies in his game. He handled a 3rd pairing role, some aggressiveness to his game and will be Cap friendly, and we're going to need that in a couple of years time in the EP & QH era. If Vcr lets him go ( RFA next year ) then I think some one else would pick him up pretty quickly. By the by where has Evan McEnemy gone to ?

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4 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

1) He was not -1 per game.

2) Projecting a tiny sample size to a full season is something only a person completely ignorant of statistics would think has significance, especially when,

3):

That tiny negative sample was largely produced during his first couple of weeks of adjusting to a new team in a new league (with a nagging knee injury), which no sentient person would believe accurately represents his playing ability.

 

4 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

1) He was not -1 per game.

2) Projecting a tiny sample size to a full season is something only a person completely ignorant of statistics would think has significance, especially when,

3):

That tiny negative sample was largely produced during his first couple of weeks of adjusting to a new team in a new league (with a nagging knee injury), which no sentient person would believe accurately represents his playing ability.

You did not read the comment I was addressing.  I didn't say Juolevi was minus 1 per game. The person I was responding to claimed that being minus 1 per game was not bad for a number one defenceman playing x many minutes per game against the top line.  I disputed that by demonstrating what that claim would mean over the course of a season - so no, neither am I ignorant of statistics - you maybe should go back to school and study reading.

No, Juolevi was not - one per game (again, something I never claimed), but he was minus 4 in his last four games. And again, in my post I included that he may have already been suffering a knee injury (though I have found no data that establishes that as a fact - it was only conjecture on my part).

"That tiny negative sample was largely produced during his first couple of weeks of adjusting to a new team in a new league (with a nagging knee injury), which no sentient person would believe accurately represents his playing ability." Since you seem to want to be picky, it was a month - and with the worst (-4 in his last four games) at the end - and since you didn't include any facts amongst your conjectures, I'll give you the data source here:
https://theahl.com/stats/player/7416/61/olli-juolevi

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16 hours ago, Pete M said:

nothing against OJ... however, there were good players on the team that were "+" players ....they too played on this crappy team. OJ still has some development to do with his "D" game.

InkedCapture_LI.jpg

I'm going to try and explain what you've done here. You've pointed out positive +/- stats for players that have played 3 to 4 times more games than Juolevi. The Comets were a better team in the 2nd half of the season. Those players that played 35+ games had an opportunity to improve on their +/- stats unlike Juolevi. I would also point out the point totals. If Juolevi had played the entire season, not only would he likely have become a positive player due to the improvement in the team but I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up a ppg rookie defenseman in the AHL.

 

You cant pick and chose what to acknowledge just to make a point. All that does is make argumentative and without merit.

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1 hour ago, Fred65 said:

To be honest I haven't seen Chatfield or Briesbois but I had a good look at Sautner and frankly couldn't pick many deficiencies in his game. He handled a 3rd pairing role, some aggressiveness to his game and will be Cap friendly, and we're going to need that in a couple of years time in the EP & QH era. If Vcr lets him go ( RFA next year ) then I think some one else would pick him up pretty quickly. By the by where has Evan McEnemy gone to ?

The Canucks didn't re-sign him.  Like Sautner, he is 25yrs old now and I guess he is considered an AHL vet who is waiver eligible.  It doesn't seem that Utica is interested in signing him either. 

 

Sautner's contract is up at the end of this season, however, he's waiver eligible now and it would be a huge battle for him to make the team out of training camp.  If he's sent down to Utica, maybe he gets picked up by another team (and he has his chance in the NHL).

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3 hours ago, Fred65 said:

To be honest I haven't seen Chatfield or Briesbois but I had a good look at Sautner and frankly couldn't pick many deficiencies in his game. He handled a 3rd pairing role, some aggressiveness to his game and will be Cap friendly, and we're going to need that in a couple of years time in the EP & QH era. If Vcr lets him go ( RFA next year ) then I think some one else would pick him up pretty quickly. By the by where has Evan McEnemy gone to ?

I like Sautner, but he's very replaceable. If he's lucky, he gets a Biega type of career.

 

In a couple years time, we might have Tryamkin back, Rathbone will be knocking at the door and Juolevi hopefully a regular NHLer. There won't be room here for him in the future unless he's happy being a regular call up or like I mentioned earlier being in a Biega role collecting a NHL paycheque and be a practice guy that is ready to step in at a moment's notice.

 

If another team gives him a better opportunity, then I wish him the best of luck.

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