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10 hours ago, Dazzle said:

Umm.. you must not have read this then because this, according to you, "triggered" fans of Juolevi - and for good reason.

 

this stat was written to show the team was not all bad as was suggested...there were defenceman that were "+" on a team that was perceived to be bad.

In fact, the team would probably have made the playoffs if they hadn't lost most of their "+" defenceman (Schenn, Brisebois, Sautner and Bjulus). These players were all lost at the same time (some longer than others)....because these good players were lost, the other players stats suffered including their "+/-"....this is only one stat that needs to be read with other stats as mentioned by Jester.

Edited by Pete M

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22 minutes ago, Pete M said:

this stat was written to show the team was not all bad as was suggested...there were defenceman that were "+" on a team that was perceived to be bad.

In fact, the team would probably have made the playoffs if they hadn't lost most of their "+" defenceman (Schenn, Brisebois, Sautner and Bjulus). These players were all lost at the same time (some longer than others)....because these good players were lost, the other players stats suffered including their "+/-"....this is only one stat that needs to be read with other stats as mentioned by Jester.

Again, they are all veterans of the AHL. One would hope they have better +/- scores.

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Just now, Dazzle said:

Again, they are all veterans of the AHL. One would hope they have better +/- scores.

just because they are vets doesn't mean they have better "+/-" (in any league)...MDZ is a vet and look at his "+/-"...

They have good "+/-" because they are good defensively on a team perceived to be bad.

 

a fact about Horvat:

Horvat, last year, at the start of the year had a bad "+/-" because he was focusing on scoring...he then realized that he needed to focus on his defensive game first, then the points and his "+/-" would be better. At the start of the year, even Horvat hurt the team because he had it in his mind that he was a offensive player and he ignored the defensive part of his game. Soon after, he started focusing on the "D" game and his point total along with his "+/-" improved.

 Horvat's "+/-" was an indicator that parts of his game needed to be adjusted at the time and he adjusted.

Yes, "+/-" isn't an absolute stat that tells a true story, but "+/-" is something that can be seen as a sign or red flag that indicates that a player needs to work on part of his game...it needs to be taken with a "grain of salt".

 

Same with OJ, his "+/-" stat was not good, which may indicate that he needs to focus on his defensive game first or it may suggest that his injury affected his game more than what was expected...my point is that it shouldn't be dismissed as a meaningless stat where someone only looks at his point totals

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9 minutes ago, Pete M said:

...my point is that it shouldn't be dismissed as a meaningless stat where someone only looks at his point totals

You choose to use +/- in a very small sample size and call it meaningful.  Knowledgeable hockey people know that what you are saying is hilarious.  Simple.  

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5 minutes ago, Kanukfanatic said:

You choose to use +/- in a very small sample size and call it meaningful.  Knowledgeable hockey people know that what you are saying is hilarious.  Simple.  

Do you think OJ needs to work on his game to get better?

If so, how did you determine this? What stats do you use?

 

Do you think OJ's injury contributed to his good play?

Edited by Pete M
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I read a lot into +/- myself, but as was said - you need to take it with a grain of salt. It is highly impacted by usage. Is the guy always on the PK?  Are they used as a shutdown guy against the opposition top lines? Do they have most of their starts in the o zone?

 

Tanev is a good example.  He has only been a single-digit minus once in his career and is overall a +39 in his career. This is really quite a feat considering he is always matched up against the top line of opposing teams, and is tasked with difficult PK minutes and largely played in the defensive zone as well. He was even a + last season, which was not his finest.

 

This all becomes even clearer when you consider that Tanev doesn't drive play.  He gets very few points of his own, and isn't given a lot of PP time which would help him be on the ice to get a + when we score.

 

On the flip side of this, lets look at the Sedins in their last couple of years.  They actually were somewhat defensively responsible to a degree, but their lack of speed caught up with them in a big way. Though they were our best point getters even in the last 2 years, their +/- was atrocious considering their usage.

 

Now, I have not been following Juolevi's play/progress, but unless he has been tasked as a shutdown guy, his +/- just doesn't look good. He will never be successful if he focuses purely on an offensive game.  He needs to be at least neutral in his defensive game before he can contribute properly on the scoreboard.  Otherwise, we run into another Sedin-like situation where he may put up points, but in the end is actually a detriment on the ice.

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7 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

No problem - happens all the time.
I'm sure there are more advanced stats out there than some of the people on this site know about, but that I do not (there are some very clever buggers on this site), but here is one I do know of (poor grammar there) ... of which I know:
https://theahl.com/stats/player-stats/390/61?playertype=skater&position=skaters&rookie=no&sort=points&statstype=expanded&page=1&league=4

 

So, as part of a friendly discussion, I read your link

 

Lots of perceived bad news about Juolevi

 

But again, Offensively, he was almost at 3 shots a game, which is pretty good for an partially injured rookie defenseman...……..better than any other Dman

 

I just look at him as a glass half full prospect...…….but in saying that...……...I am fully aware that not all prospects, regardless of standing, make it

 

But getting pucks to the net is a good sign

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3 hours ago, kloubek said:

I read a lot into +/- myself, but as was said - you need to take it with a grain of salt. It is highly impacted by usage. Is the guy always on the PK?  Are they used as a shutdown guy against the opposition top lines? Do they have most of their starts in the o zone?

 

Tanev is a good example.  He has only been a single-digit minus once in his career and is overall a +39 in his career. This is really quite a feat considering he is always matched up against the top line of opposing teams, and is tasked with difficult PK minutes and largely played in the defensive zone as well. He was even a + last season, which was not his finest.

 

This all becomes even clearer when you consider that Tanev doesn't drive play.  He gets very few points of his own, and isn't given a lot of PP time which would help him be on the ice to get a + when we score.

 

On the flip side of this, lets look at the Sedins in their last couple of years.  They actually were somewhat defensively responsible to a degree, but their lack of speed caught up with them in a big way. Though they were our best point getters even in the last 2 years, their +/- was atrocious considering their usage.

 

Now, I have not been following Juolevi's play/progress, but unless he has been tasked as a shutdown guy, his +/- just doesn't look good. He will never be successful if he focuses purely on an offensive game.  He needs to be at least neutral in his defensive game before he can contribute properly on the scoreboard.  Otherwise, we run into another Sedin-like situation where he may put up points, but in the end is actually a detriment on the ice.

You dont get a + on the Powerplay....

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7 hours ago, kloubek said:

I read a lot into +/- myself, but as was said - you need to take it with a grain of salt. It is highly impacted by usage. Is the guy always on the PK?  Are they used as a shutdown guy against the opposition top lines? Do they have most of their starts in the o zone?

 

Tanev is a good example.  He has only been a single-digit minus once in his career and is overall a +39 in his career. This is really quite a feat considering he is always matched up against the top line of opposing teams, and is tasked with difficult PK minutes and largely played in the defensive zone as well. He was even a + last season, which was not his finest.

 

This all becomes even clearer when you consider that Tanev doesn't drive play.  He gets very few points of his own, and isn't given a lot of PP time which would help him be on the ice to get a + when we score.

 

On the flip side of this, lets look at the Sedins in their last couple of years.  They actually were somewhat defensively responsible to a degree, but their lack of speed caught up with them in a big way. Though they were our best point getters even in the last 2 years, their +/- was atrocious considering their usage.

 

Now, I have not been following Juolevi's play/progress, but unless he has been tasked as a shutdown guy, his +/- just doesn't look good. He will never be successful if he focuses purely on an offensive game.  He needs to be at least neutral in his defensive game before he can contribute properly on the scoreboard.  Otherwise, we run into another Sedin-like situation where he may put up points, but in the end is actually a detriment on the ice.

You don't get a plus if you're on the ice on the PP (but you can get a minus if you let in a shorthanded goal). You also don't get a minus if you're scored on during a PK (but you get a plus if you score short handed). 

 

My position has always been that the stat is useless when cross comparing players on different teams but it can useful within a team. I recall Joulevi's plus/minus was middle ground at the time of his injury compared to the rest of the team. 

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https://www.liveabout.com/what-is-the-plus-minus-statistic-2779372

 

"More specifically, the statistic depends on the team's overall shooting percentage, the goaltender's average save percentage, the performance of the opposing team and the amount of time an individual player is allowed on the ice. Because of the way the plus/minus statistic is calculated, a player with the exact same skillset can get drastically different plus/minus rankings. 

 

Thus, many hockey players, coaches and NHL commentators have complained that the plus/minus statistic is not useful when it comes to comparing individual players or evaluating a player's skill."

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12 hours ago, Pete M said:

Do you think OJ needs to work on his game to get better?

If so, how did you determine this? What stats do you use?

 

Do you think OJ's injury contributed to his good play?

Of course OJ needs to work on his game and get better. He has never played an NHL game......good god what kind of question is that???

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1 minute ago, Kanukfanatic said:

Of course OJ needs to work on his game and get better. He has never played an NHL game......good god what kind of question is that???

lol...I see you like standing back and throwing darts at people.

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Quinn Hughes has to work on his shot and his defensive coverage.  That is why they will play him with a veteran who can shelter his defence and let him thrive offensively.  OJ will need some help transitioning as well.  While he is older than Quinn, Quinn has played 2 injury free years in the NCAA and OJ has bounced around and had injuries.  He needs some stability, good health and to work on some things.  2 awesome prospects that I can't wait to watch and will be key contributors for years to come.  

 

Everybody just stop trying to be right that we should have picked Tkachuk and move on.  Other than Hughes, he is the best defensive prospect the Canucks have had since Edler.  Edler also took 3 years to get hear and he didn't have the injury problems.  But in his draft+4 year he had 37 pts.

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On 8/10/2019 at 10:29 AM, Kanukfanatic said:

Of course OJ needs to work on his game and get better. He has never played an NHL game......good god what kind of question is that???

There are no stupid questions just stupid answers.

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29 minutes ago, dpn1 said:

 

There are no stupid questions just stupid answers.

No.  There really are stupid questions.

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On 8/9/2019 at 11:05 PM, janisahockeynut said:

So, as part of a friendly discussion, I read your link

 

Lots of perceived bad news about Juolevi

 

But again, Offensively, he was almost at 3 shots a game, which is pretty good for an partially injured rookie defenseman...……..better than any other Dman

 

I just look at him as a glass half full prospect...…….but in saying that...……...I am fully aware that not all prospects, regardless of standing, make it

 

But getting pucks to the net is a good sign

Oh, he has great hockey sense moving forward - the problem is that his demonstrated defensive skills in the AHL were far from strong - adjusting to a new level? Injury? Don’t know. I hope it is something fixable. Two extremely strong left side D could be great.

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OJ is still young really and I am hoping he takes the next steps and can become top 4 . I expect the Canucks will start him in Utica unless he has an unbelievable training camp . He needs minutes so I hope he plays top 4 with pp and pk time on the farm . if they only expect a 5-6 dman I think he will be called up sooner than if they are grooming him to be a top 4 in Vancouver . I certainly  wouldn't be surprised if he stays on the farm most of the year  unless of course injuries .

Edited by Nurnge
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8 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

Oh, he has great hockey sense moving forward - the problem is that his demonstrated defensive skills in the AHL were far from strong - adjusting to a new level? Injury? Don’t know. I hope it is something fixable. Two extremely strong left side D could be great.

Combination of things. Adjustment to new level of hockey/still developing, small sample size and injured knee are all part of the picture.

 

People just need to stop assuming that particularly says much about his eventual ceiling.

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8 hours ago, Nurnge said:

OJ is still young really and I am hoping he takes the next steps and can become top 4 . I expect the Canucks will start him in Utica unless he has an unbelievable training camp . He needs minutes so I hope he plays top 4 with pp and pk time on the farm . if they only expect a 5-6 dman I think he will be called up sooner than if they are grooming him to be a top 4 in Vancouver . I certainly  wouldn't be surprised if he stays on the farm most of the year  unless of course injuries .

And what's the chance of that, on the Vancouver Canucks?  He will play for the Canucks this year for sure, unless he himself gets re-injured.  

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