Contrasting Views

[JamesB]

It could be my imagination but it seems there is an unusually wide range of opinion on the Canucks right now, both on CDC and between the media and CDC.

I have summarized the contrasts below. Nothing really new here but I think the contrasts are interesting. (And I emphasize that none of these views are necessarily mine. My opinion comes at the end.)

 

Benning:

Positive Spin: Benning knows what he wants to achieve and does not want to be a bottom feeder for 5 years in the hope of stockpiling a few high draft picks. He is building a team that is bigger, faster, tougher, younger, and more skilled than the team he inherited. He is pulling out all the stops. In addition to drafting well, he is bringing guys in from Europe, making trades, and signing UFAs. Last year was a tough year but things should look good from here on. He knows what he is doing and the pipeline is great with guys like Boeser, Juolevi and Demko in the mix. I like the vision and expect a genuine Cup contender soon. 

Negative Spin: Yes he is pretty good at evaluating young talent. His draft record is good and he has brought in some good prospects through trades. But he is not the draft wizard that a lot of people think he is. In all other areas including trades of established players, UFAs signings, asset management, player development, contract negotiations, etc. he has made newbie mistakes and is no better than average (if that) among NHL GMs. He does not even understand the tampering rules. Vision – are you kidding me? More like confusion.

 

First Line:

Positive Spin:

The Sedins are great players. They are getting older but are still very good and putting them with a legitimate first line winger like Eriksson should allow them to have a good year. And they are always great leaders who create the right environment for young players. They deserve one more cup run with the Canucks.  

Negative Spin:

The best forwards on the team will be 36 by the time the season starts. Yes, they have had great careers and are still good players. But they were below-average first liners in the second half of last year. You would be happy to have them as second liners next year but if your first line is built around two 36-year-olds, then you are in trouble.  

 

Other Forwards:

Positive Spin: With Sutter, Horvat and Granlund up the middle (and Gaunce and Zalewski providing depth) the Canucks are solid up the middle. On the wing, Hansen is valuable and can play anywhere. In the second half of last year Baertschi showed that he is a legitimate top 6 forward, and Dorsett is a tough guy who can play and is a mainstay on the 4^th line. Burrows might be overpaid but he is still good, and Rodin has a good chance to contribute. Virtanen and Etem are young guys with speed, size, and toughness who are poised for breakout seasons. (And a year from now Boeser joins the mix.) Things are looking good.

Negative Spin: Come on. The bottom 9 are setting up as two third lines and an undersized 4^th line. Hard to see where the scoring is going to come from. Rodin, Virtanen and Etem are all long shots who have not proven they even belong in the NHL yet. Horvat and Baertschi are good young players, but there is no way they score enough to put the Canucks in the playoffs.

 

Defence:

Positive Spin: Edler will be healthy. Love the Gudbranson pick-up. Hutton looks great and Tanev remains very good. Sbisa is better than he gets credit for and I am really intrigued by Tryamkin – Chara 2.0? Larsen could help the PP. And Pedan has a lot of potential. This is a D that is going to make life a lot less pleasant for opposing forwards.

Negative Spin: Edler wasn’t that good even when he was healthy last year. We replace Hammer with Guddy. I like Guddy but I am not sure that exchange makes the team better. Hutton has offensive skill but he is soft and makes too many defensive mistakes. Tryamkin is a lottery ticket (and so are Larsson and Pedan). Sbisa? Don’t get me started. Don’t see where the offensive support is coming from.

 

Goal:

Positive: Two solid #1-quality goalies.

Negative: Yawn. Average goal-tending on a below average team.

 

Overall:

Positive: This team is improved in important areas and will surprise a lot of people. I expect the Canucks to make the playoffs and maybe win a round or two this year.

Negative: This team won’t score enough to even contend for the playoffs. Looking forward to next year’s draft. Just hope Benning doesn’t trade away more picks.

 

Bottom Line: Right now I am staying firmly on the fence, but will jump on one side or the other after this season. 

[GettinGuddyWithIt]

We're kinda stuck in this a place where either we'll be really good or really bad. It all comes down to the young guys to take a big step forward and not being killed by injuries. Our first line, defense and goaltending are our strengths and its up for the rest to step up. Time will tell but I have them making the playoffs.

 

GCG

 

 

[Tavrohorvat53]

That's about right. Nice job

[BowtieCanuck]

We're getting into the beginning of the meaty part of the rebuild. People shouldn't expect huge results, but you can't expect the team to still be 'developing' as well. This coming season and the next two after are going to really make or break this team for the next 10-15 years.

[bleedblue2017]

35 minutes ago, JamesB said:

It could be my imagination but it seems there is an unusually wide range of opinion on the Canucks right now, both on CDC and between the media and CDC.

I have summarized the contrasts below. Nothing really new here but I think the contrasts are interesting. (And I emphasize that none of these views are necessarily mine. My opinion comes at the end.)

 

Benning:

Positive Spin: Benning knows what he wants to achieve and does not want to be a bottom feeder for 5 years in the hope of stockpiling a few high draft picks. He is building a team that is bigger, faster, tougher, younger, and more skilled than the team he inherited. He is pulling out all the stops. In addition to drafting well, he is bringing guys in from Europe, making trades, and signing UFAs. Last year was a tough year but things should look good from here on. He knows what he is doing and the pipeline is great with guys like Boeser, Juolevi and Demko in the mix. I like the vision and expect a genuine Cup contender soon. 

Negative Spin: Yes he is pretty good at evaluating young talent. His draft record is good and he has brought in some good prospects through trades. But he is not the draft wizard that a lot of people think he is. In all other areas including trades of established players, UFAs signings, asset management, player development, contract negotiations, etc. he has made newbie mistakes and is no better than average (if that) among NHL GMs. He does not even understand the tampering rules. Vision – are you kidding me? More like confusion.

 

First Line:

Positive Spin:

The Sedins are great players. They are getting older but are still very good and putting them with a legitimate first line winger like Eriksson should allow them to have a good year. And they are always great leaders who create the right environment for young players. They deserve one more cup run with the Canucks.  

Negative Spin:

The best forwards on the team will be 36 by the time the season starts. Yes, they have had great careers and are still good players. But they were below-average first liners in the second half of last year. You would be happy to have them as second liners next year but if your first line is built around two 36-year-olds, then you are in trouble.  

 

Other Forwards:

Positive Spin: With Sutter, Horvat and Granlund up the middle (and Gaunce and Zalewski providing depth) the Canucks are solid up the middle. On the wing, Hansen is valuable and can play anywhere. In the second half of last year Baertschi showed that he is a legitimate top 6 forward, and Dorsett is a tough guy who can play and is a mainstay on the 4^th line. Burrows might be overpaid but he is still good, and Rodin has a good chance to contribute. Virtanen and Etem are young guys with speed, size, and toughness who are poised for breakout seasons. (And a year from now Boeser joins the mix.) Things are looking good.

Negative Spin: Come on. The bottom 9 are setting up as two third lines and an undersized 4^th line. Hard to see where the scoring is going to come from. Rodin, Virtanen and Etem are all long shots who have not proven they even belong in the NHL yet. Horvat and Baertschi are good young players, but there is no way they score enough to put the Canucks in the playoffs.

 

Defence:

Positive Spin: Edler will be healthy. Love the Gudbranson pick-up. Hutton looks great and Tanev remains very good. Sbisa is better than he gets credit for and I am really intrigued by Tryamkin – Chara 2.0? Larsen could help the PP. And Pedan has a lot of potential. This is a D that is going to make life a lot less pleasant for opposing forwards.

Negative Spin: Edler wasn’t that good even when he was healthy last year. We replace Hammer with Guddy. I like Guddy but I am not sure that exchange makes the team better. Hutton has offensive skill but he is soft and makes too many defensive mistakes. Tryamkin is a lottery ticket (and so are Larsson and Pedan). Sbisa? Don’t get me started. Don’t see where the offensive support is coming from.

 

Goal:

Positive: Two solid #1-quality goalies.

Negative: Yawn. Average goal-tending on a below average team.

 

Overall:

Positive: This team is improved in important areas and will surprise a lot of people. I expect the Canucks to make the playoffs and maybe win a round or two this year.

Negative: This team won’t score enough to even contend for the playoffs. Looking forward to next year’s draft. Just hope Benning doesn’t trade away more picks.

 

Bottom Line: Right now I am staying firmly on the fence, but will jump on one side or the other after this season. 

Good summary. Our first line will be a bit better this year, but our second line down to the fourth lacks scoring depth, if we get any substantial injuries we are hooped! However this stuation may be really good for a young guy looking to crack the line up and make an impact. My expectation of this team is the same as last year, because this team is transitioning, I am not expecting them to be in the playoffs, they will battle hard and make it interesting, but ultimately they wont make it. JB and Linden are doing way better than I expected, by that I mean lets look at the team when they (JB and Linden) took over, seriously nothing special, except Horvat, Bertchi, and Hutton. Other than that pretty average. I think JB is alot better than you think, he has made some good moves and has drafted well, I do agree player development is a bit of a questionmark, hopefully that can be answered for this season. Good post:)

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

I'm right with you sitting on that fence, JamesB. Unfortunately, there just aren't very many of us.

 

Most of this fanbase seems extremely polarized. I honestly haven't seen such a wide gulf between two opposing views of the Canucks/management in all my years following this team.

 

Which makes it frustrating for us middle guys who are generally optimistic but will also call things like we see it. 

 

On some boards, I'm called a Pollyanna.

 

On others, I'm called Chicken Little.

 

The funny thing is, I really haven't changed. I try to be as objective about the current team as I've always done (or I'd like to think anyway).

 

But for the most part, I've always been more of an optimist historically (my unwavering belief that every Canucks prospect might just become a player one day can attest to this). And I'd like to think I still am pretty optimistic about our team. But this fanbase has become so polarized that I get accused of "hating" when I see any faults (or even suggest minor mistakes) in Benning's approach. And other times, I'm called naïve or blind for defending management or not agreeing with the people who believe Benning is the worst GM in the league (and in Canucks history).

 

And here I sit on the fence between two warring factions of Canucks fans. Honestly, it gets lonely sometimes. 

 

So it's always nice to find another fence sitter. And I wish more Canucks fans would join us.

 

Lots of room on this fence.  

[Honky Cat]

Pretty accurate contrasts on the situation,but at the end of the day..results are going speak louder than words...

[THERETOOL]

43 minutes ago, Honky Cat said:

Pretty accurate contrasts on the situation,but at the end of the day..results are going speak louder than words...

its a results based business and Benning feels that winning is the only thing ..  I imagine the conversation he has had with trevor .  

it might have gone something like this ....

 

People will come Trevor . They'll come to Vancouver  for reasons they can't even fathom. They'll turn up your driveway not knowing for sure why they're doing it.

They'll arrive at your door as innocent as children, longing for the past. Of course, we won't mind if you look around, you'll say. It's only $120  per person.

They'll pass over the money without even thinking about it: for it is money they have and peace they lack. And they'll walk up into the stands , sit in shirtsleeves on a perfect afternoon. They'll find they have reserved seats somewhere along one of the blue lines , where they sat when they were children and cheered their heroes. And they'll watch the game and it'll be as if they dipped themselves in magic waters.

The memories will be so thick they'll have to brush them away from their faces. People will come Trevor . The one constant through all the years, Trevor , has been hockey.

Canada  has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But hockey has marked the time.

This arena , this game: it's a part of our past, Trevor .

It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again.

 

Oh... people will come Trevor . People will most definitely come

 

 

[HerrDrFunk]

Yep, you're pretty much right on point there, OP. 

 

I honestly have no idea what the season is going to be like...and that kinda excites me!

[Phat Fingers]

Gotta wonder what camps Apollo and Desi fall into?

 

 

 

 

great post JB,

 

One big influence on the divide is the effect of eastern media. For whatever reason, they seem s$&@ on every move this organization makes.  That's if they talk about it at all. Often, they will ignore positive moves entirely if they can't s$&@ all over them. 

 

Year after year, the Oilers are going to suddenly get it all together. Toronto should start the parade, the Flames are dangerous again etc, etc, etc.  

 

Surprised we don't have hourly reports on what Mathews is eating, how well he sleeps at night, what's his favourite colour.

 

It gets frustrating and dull.  All the media outside of some Newspaper and radio guys are now based in Toronto.  They have no clue about what's really going on with the Canucks. 

 

    There is a counter balance on this board as fans debate, discuss and disagree. We can find a consensus on some points.  

 

    I try to be civil, no need to hurl insults, as it does little of anything, except make people tune you out.

 

     It may seem like I am in the happy camp, but I just happen to agree with how JB is going about things, mostly.  If that changes, then my stance will as well. 

 

 

EW

 

[EmilyM]

CDC summed up in one post. Nice.

Truth is we will probably fall somewhere in between the opposing views with both camps saying "I told you so" in the end.

[PrinceGeorgeGoon]

"I've never been wrong in my life and I'm not about to start today."

Melania Trump

[THERETOOL]

5 minutes ago, PrinceGeorgeGoon said:

"I've never been wrong in my life and I'm not about to start today."

Melania Trump

lol !!!

[Toyotasfan]

Expecting slightly better than last year , still waiting to see if there's a good bandwagon to jump on or if the pitchfork and torches mob is where it's at. 

Seriously though , the team should be much improved barring injuries.

[Riviera82]

3 hours ago, GettinGuddyWithIt said:

We're kinda stuck in this a place where either we'll be really good or really bad. It all comes down to the young guys to take a big step forward and not being killed by injuries. Our first line, defense and goaltending are our strengths and its up for the rest to step up. Time will tell but I have them making the playoffs.

 

GCG

 

 

I tend to think we'll either be nicely above average if everything goes right, or 'last year' if everything goes wrong. Whatever happens though, if the Canucks get into the playoffs I'd say it's a safe bet that we'd be very lucky to get out of the first round. Not to seem like a complete pessimist but we've had far better Canuck teams in the past which could accomplish very little in the playoffs, so I dont have a lot of hope for this team as it stands right now.

['NucK™]

3 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

I'm right with you sitting on that fence, JamesB. Unfortunately, there just aren't very many of us.

 

Most of this fanbase seems extremely polarized. I honestly haven't seen such a wide gulf between two opposing views of the Canucks/management in all my years following this team.

 

Which makes it frustrating for us middle guys who are generally optimistic but will also call things like we see it. 

 

On some boards, I'm called a Pollyanna.

 

On others, I'm called Chicken Little.

 

The funny thing is, I really haven't changed. I try to be as objective about the current team as I've always done (or I'd like to think anyway).

 

But for the most part, I've always been more of an optimist historically (my unwavering belief that every Canucks prospect might just become a player one day can attest to this). And I'd like to think I still am pretty optimistic about our team. But this fanbase has become so polarized that I get accused of "hating" when I see any faults (or even suggest minor mistakes) in Benning's approach. And other times, I'm called naïve or blind for defending management or not agreeing with the people who believe Benning is the worst GM in the league (and in Canucks history).

 

And here I sit on the fence between two warring factions of Canucks fans. Honestly, it gets lonely sometimes. 

 

So it's always nice to find another fence sitter. And I wish more Canucks fans would join us.

 

Lots of room on this fence.  

I think you are more positive than the average Canucks fan though. At least I have similar views and I know I am.

 

it seems that the more casual fan base is more likely to hate on JB (and that as does make up the majority afterall). Probably because they are just thinking about big picture stuff like: nothing @ free agency, losing hamhuis, mccann, signing a 31yo to 6 years + tkuchuk homers who didn't even know who Juolevi was when his name was called (+ the Lack homers as well who thought we made a bad decision mostly because.. hes a really nice guy and likes tacos. I thought it was clear that marky showed more promise at the time eddie was traded AND we avoided free agency and got brisebois thanks to it. yet people still complain..)

 

they either dont see the other side of it (hammer-mentorship/hard to trade, mccann-traded a prima donna for potential future A captain, erikisson-have to consider that it was the only way the deal would get done), or haven't noticed what Benning has done in just two years to finally get some good prospects into the system (demko, boeser, tryamkin, stecher, zhukenov, pedan, to some extent baerstchi. and lastly, mcann=gubranson, with all this costing us 3 draft picks -baerstchi, vey, trade for guddy- and no picks higher than 23 overall..). TWO YEARS.. and people worry about a pick like OJ.

 

anyways im not saying were in great shape for next year but I truly think you arent following closely enough or just arent a canucks fan if you think Benning is doing a poor job.. (not actually referring to 'you' above obvs )

[EdgarM]

Our PP is going to be better with Erickson and a healthy Sutter. Still need a good Dman to Qback though. Who knows maybe Hutton improves or Larsen steps in. 

Still think our second line is what makes or breaks us. Can they put something together that can produce and take pressure off the Sedin's?

The defense should be better barring injuries and should be able to keep us in most games same with the goaltending.

Really hoping to see more improvement with Bo and Baert and hoping they can show they can put up some goals as a second or third line. 

That second line winger could be the missing piece to the puzzle and an opportunity may present itself somewhere during the season. 

Lots of question marks but very optomistic for a good upcoming season.

[kingofsurrey]

No PP QB

No second line

Top line gets seniors discount at Denny's -  we will need a truckload of tape to keep them taped up  and  playing all season. 

No  1 D or 2 D  on our club right no.  Sorry Edler and Tanev are more 3 D's on most teams. 

 

Yup its going to be a long season.  Probably drafting in the 25-30 range.  Hopefully we can get a future 1 C in the draft next year. 

 

Hopefully this is rock bottom and we can start to go up from here........

[Crabcakes]

I'm liking how Benning has the team set up for this year.  I think it is less vulnerable to injury than it was last year because depth has improved and Utica is better.  The Canucks are better because of the way the defense has been re-constructed.  There are better players and better depth.  They are still lacking a PPQB.  They had better hope this is Juolevi but they will have to wait a couple of years for him to develop to a point where he is ready for the NHL.

 

Edler Tanev                            Edler Tanev

Hamhuis Weber                      Hutton Gudbranson

Sbisa Bartkowski                    Sbisa Larsen

                                               Tryamkin

that was the plan,

Hutton (who knew?) 

 

On the front end they have a first line who can hold the fort (Sedin Sedin Eriksson) and a 2C (Sutter) who all will be sheltering developing players.  I really don't see this as an all in project to get the Sedins a cup, I see it as a line up designed to develop young players.  They're going to have to wait a couple of years for Horvat, Baertschi, Virtanen, Boeser and others to come along and they still need some prospects to develop into a 1st line.

 

In the mean time, I don't see them falling on their faces.  The D looks stronger that the forwards now.  This is the exact opposite of what I thought a year ago.  In general, depth is one of the key differences between this years team and last years.  There may very well be some surprises in the line up.  As for over all performance, I am predicting the same as I have for the past 2 seasons.  They're a bubble team.  If they make the play offs, they may be out in the first round but they will benefit from that experience. 

 

 

 

[Aircool]

I think you sum this up reasonably well, but I think you really miss the point that people like myself have who are considered to have the "negative opinions"...

 

People on these forums like to say things like, Sedins now have Eriksson and will put up 100 points... People have said that... Complete nonsense obviously... Even if you say they will be better, I simply ask what is your justification for that? Who says one of them isn't out for the season by the second week of the season... The "positive" opinions on CDC are essentially, "Sedins will be better this year because they have a better linemate." while ignoring the potential for regression, severe injury, or the general impact of being a one line team.. IE, the other team always only has to match up against your only good line. The point being, it might be better to play Eriksson on the 2nd line.

 

A GM's job isn't to say, "well they'll be better, because Eriksson" and then when they're worse say, "we had a lot of injuries"... A GM is supposed to consider the REALISTIC possibilities that can occur, such as one Sedin being injured for 2-3+ months, or the Sedins regressing, and to plan for that. If your team is contingent upon EVERYTHING going right, it begs the question as to whether your decision-making is correct. Anyone can sign Eriksson and make happy-go-lucky claims as to the dominance of the Sedins this season... That's not hard, GMs are paid to do more.