Burkini ban in France, sexist or liberating?

[BeefcakeBo]

Isn't the uglyness of the burkini enough of a reason to ban it? I mean you can't expect to be let into a formal french restaurant in a pair of shorts and no shirt, why would you expect to be allowed onto a pristine beach without proper attire.

 

On the down side it may make it harder to identify the extremists from the rational thinking population while on the beach. If they don't stay away that is. 

[Dion Phaneuf]

2 hours ago, Mustapha said:

Sorry, but in most places it's already done. Why aren't all beaches clothing optional? 

 

Nice false equivalence with the burkini = t-shirt and shorts. Last I checked, there was no holy book or imam commanding me to wear a T-shirt and shorts.

 

It's religious oppression by definition and don't even try to tell me that the majority of Muslim women wear it willingly with no threat or consequences from their family or religious group if they refuse.

 

I get it. Restricting the freedom to wear a burkini at the beach seems oppressive at first glance, but it's a step toward encouraging religious reformation for immigrants.

 

-It demonstrates that France will not put up with practices that oppress women.

 

You want to join western society? OK. Time to abandon the dangerous and oppressive ideas and move forward. Don't want to? You're free to leave.

 

I actually do agree with you on most points.  My issue is not with France, rather its approach to assimilation.

 

I'm concerned about the fact that certain towns are outright banning a piece of clothing that may or may not be worn for religious reasons.  Some may simply be wearing a Burkini for reasons not associated with the traditional values of Islam.  Would have made sense to simply ban the burka (similarly to ski masks) in that ones face must be shown rather than ban an entire outfit.  A ban could be implemented throughout the entire country and in effect on all public land.  The end result would be the same (no burka) (along with ski masks, etc.).  Would come across as a lot less discrete for no singling out an entire race.

[Mustapha]

6 hours ago, Dion Phaneuf said:

 

I actually do agree with you on most points.  My issue is not with France, rather its approach to assimilation.

 

I'm concerned about the fact that certain towns are outright banning a piece of clothing that may or may not be worn for religious reasons.  Some may simply be wearing a Burkini for reasons not associated with the traditional values of Islam.  Would have made sense to simply ban the burka (similarly to ski masks) in that ones face must be shown rather than ban an entire outfit.  A ban could be implemented throughout the entire country and in effect on all public land.  The end result would be the same (no burka) (along with ski masks, etc.).  Would come across as a lot less discrete for no singling out an entire race.

Again, the false equivalence.  A ski mask is used to protect a skier from the elements.  You could propose banning ski masks at the beach, I guess... People do ski in France, and banning ski masks nation wide would be quite inconvenient to say the least.

 

Also, who the hell wears a burkini 'for reasons not associated with Islam' AT THE FREAKING BEACH? Somehow, I just don't see that being popular. Imagine how sweaty and gross that would feel.

[Hugor Hill]

9 hours ago, Mustapha said:

Sorry, but in most places it's already done. Why aren't all beaches clothing optional? 

 

Nice false equivalence with the burkini = t-shirt and shorts. Last I checked, there was no holy book or imam commanding me to wear a T-shirt and shorts.

 

It's religious oppression by definition and don't even try to tell me that the majority of Muslim women wear it willingly with no threat or consequences from their family or religious group if they refuse.

 

I get it. Restricting the freedom to wear a burkini at the beach seems oppressive at first glance, but it's a step toward encouraging religious reformation for immigrants.

 

-It demonstrates that France will not put up with practices that oppress women.

 

You want to join western society? OK. Time to abandon the dangerous and oppressive ideas and move forward. Don't want to? You're free to leave.

HOLY (EXPLETIVE) LOL! WHAT AM HOPELESS COMMENT!

 

1) Islam is the 2nd most popular religion in France after Christianity.

2) France is a free, democratic country in case you didn't know, there is no 'religious reformation' required by anyone. In fact, something like a 3rd of the French people are atheists or agnostic. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mustapha]

2 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said:

HOLY (EXPLETIVE) LOL! WHAT AM HOPELESS COMMENT!

 

1) Islam is the 2nd most popular religion in France after Catholicism.

2) France is a free, democratic country in case you didn't know, there is no 'religious reformation' required by anyone. In fact, something like a 3rd of the French people are atheists or agnostic. 

 

 

 

 

 

Your attempts at shaming me are futile. You have demonstrated consistently that you don't have a clear understanding of the issues.

 

Proclaiming that Islam is the 2nd most popular religion in France proves my point further. It is an oppressive religion that forces itself into the landscape of every nation where it has influence.

 

In the Middle East and North Africa, Religious laws tend to supersede secular laws. They also have a tendency to be run by dictators, religious leaders and authoritarian monarchs.

 

France became a free democratic nation by violently overthrowing the 'Ancien Regime' which had many of the same characteristics as several current Islamic nations

 

-Absolute monarchy

-Power rooted in religion

-Church courts

-Oppression of those who do not follow (French Huguenots, Cathars)

 

All of that progress since 1789 will be for naught if France capitulates to another form of religious oppression.

 

Being a 'free democratic' society does not include the right to oppress others in burkinis or niqabs and France is in the right to start restricting it.

 

 

[Dion Phaneuf]

57 minutes ago, Mustapha said:

Again, the false equivalence.  A ski mask is used to protect a skier from the elements.  You could propose banning ski masks at the beach, I guess... People do ski in France, and banning ski masks nation wide would be quite inconvenient to say the least.

 

Also, who the hell wears a burkini 'for reasons not associated with Islam' AT THE FREAKING BEACH? Somehow, I just don't see that being popular. Imagine how sweaty and gross that would feel.

 

Overall the ban would affect the burka but by including other items that are rarely worn in public that cover the face unnecessarily, the Muslims won't feel unfairly subjected to.  

 

For the last part, same reasons we see people overdressed at beaches here and elsewhere.  I know I shouldn't be saying this but generally those that are overweight followed by those who may shy or have skin problems.  A Burkini could be used by for small majority (minus the burka, so the clothing items name could be changed).

 

I'm probably just a little too PC when it comes to this issue.  Still would implement a ban but in a more discrete way.

[HerrDrFunk]

1 hour ago, Mustapha said:

Your attempts at shaming me are futile. You have demonstrated consistently that you don't have a clear understanding of the issues.

 

Proclaiming that Islam is the 2nd most popular religion in France proves my point further. It is an oppressive religion that forces itself into the landscape of every nation where it has influence.

 

In the Middle East and North Africa, Religious laws tend to supersede secular laws. They also have a tendency to be run by dictators, religious leaders and authoritarian monarchs.

 

France became a free democratic nation by violently overthrowing the 'Ancien Regime' which had many of the same characteristics as several current Islamic nations

 

-Absolute monarchy

-Power rooted in religion

-Church courts

-Oppression of those who do not follow (French Huguenots, Cathars)

 

All of that progress since 1789 will be for naught if France capitulates to another form of religious oppression.

 

Being a 'free democratic' society does not include the right to oppress others in burkinis or niqabs and France is in the right to start restricting it.

 

 

Yeah! The French had the right idea when they traded in religious oppression for secular oppression instead. I get the point you're trying to make but acting like everything was just hunky-dory for the French after the revolution is glossing over about 30 years of horrible crap they did to each other and the countries around them. 

[smokes]

This has gotta be up to the wearer. If this is her choice then why can she not? If there are places that have nudist beaches or clothing optional then why is it wrong to have the clothing maximal? History has shown that so far the attacks have been carried out by men, so why are the women scrutinized?

[cabinessence]

1 hour ago, HerrDrFunk said:

Yeah! The French had the right idea when they traded in religious oppression for secular oppression instead. I get the point you're trying to make but acting like everything was just hunky-dory for the French after the revolution is glossing over about 30 years of horrible crap they did to each other and the countries around them. 

I'm not too sure how many countries that have embraced poetry, science, and free will over religion have floundered. The burqa is not really even mentioned in the Koran. In some areas it has become more and more common to be worn, as the religious nuts tighten their squeeze. Go back in time in places like Syria, and you even see pictures of more women dressing casually and going to school in the 1970s. 

[HerrDrFunk]

1 minute ago, cabinessence said:

I'm not too sure how many countries that have embraced poetry, science, and free will over religion have floundered. The burqa is not really even mentioned in the Koran. In some areas it has become more and more common to be worn, as the religious nuts tighten their squeeze. Go back in time in places like Syria, and you even see pictures of more women dressing casually and going to school in the 1970s. 

You do know that the French had poetry, science and free will before the revolution, right? I'm not saying things were better under the monarchy but you and @Mustapha seem to be implying that as soon as the French got rid of it, things were all sunshine and rainbows for them. When in reality they continued to kill each other in large numbers and when they got tired of that, they switched over to their neighbours. 

[elvis15]

You don't address religious oppression of women by banning the outfits they wear. You do so only by educating people, and certainly this is a smaller sub-set of Muslims to begin with being driving by terrorist fears more than anything to do with helping women in any event. No one is talking about France having to adopt Sharia Law or acquiesce to everything Islam teaches that is contrary to the French culture.

 

This is a poorly disguised reflex to the terrorist attacks which does literally nothing to stop attacks but rather further anger Muslims and segregate them from society when we should be helping them assimilate into our culture.

 

2 minutes ago, HerrDrFunk said:

You do know that the French had poetry, science and free will before the revolution, right? I'm not saying things were better under the monarchy but you and @Mustapha seem to be implying that as soon as the French got rid of it, things were all sunshine and rainbows for them. When in reality they continued to kill each other in large numbers and when they got tired of that, they switched over to their neighbours. 

There are countless examples in history of people doing things in the name of the religious right, but does that make religion bad? No, but just like anything people will use religion to fit their agenda, and that's what's happening here.

[Mustapha]

1 hour ago, HerrDrFunk said:

Yeah! The French had the right idea when they traded in religious oppression for secular oppression instead. I get the point you're trying to make but acting like everything was just hunky-dory for the French after the revolution is glossing over about 30 years of horrible crap they did to each other and the countries around them. 

Strawman argument. I never claimed that post-revolutionary France was all sunshines and rainbows. However, it was a necessary step on the path to France's modern society. The clash was inevitable.

 

The modern Western society owes a lot to the heavy lifting done by earlier philosophers and writers. Spinoza, Rousseau, Diderot, and Voltaire (among many others) produced works that contributed to this. There was no way Enlightenment principles could stand side by side with dogmatic authoritarianism. 

 

It's different today. We know what Islamism brings to Western society. In its purest form, it stands in opposition to our freedoms to exist as we see fit. France has a right to protect itself from ideologies that have been demonstrated to subvert the foundation of liberty.

 

 

[Tortorella's Rant]

The Burka itself is sexist

 

[elvis15]

Quote

...

He wants to ban the Muslim headscarf from universities and public companies, limit the French nationality rights of children born to foreign parents, and ban pork-free options in school canteens, meaning Muslim and Jewish children would no longer be offered a substitute meal.

 

He has also scoffed at what he called “legal niceties” in the fight against terrorism, prompting the left to warn that his treatment of suspected jihadis could be akin to that of Guantánamo Bay.

...

But this is clearly no different than the clear religious oppression of women by Islam and France must clearly show them the right way, right?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/23/justin-trudeau-rules-out-burkini-ban-in-canada

Quote

...

“We should be past tolerance in Canada,” Trudeau said after meeting with his ministers to plan the government’s legislative agenda.

 

The prime minister dismissed the idea of a burkini ban in Canada.

“In Canada, can we speak of acceptance, openness, friendship, understanding? It is about where we are going and what we are going through every day in our diverse and rich communities,” he said.

...

Trudeau called for “the respect of individual rights and choices.”

 

This, he said, should be “at the top of public discourse and debate”.

 

Trudeau bemoaned instances where governments preached tolerance but acted to undermine individual rights, saying with irony: “Tolerating someone means accepting their right to exist on the condition that they don’t disturb us too, too much.”

Is a Muslim woman wearing a burkini (or head scarf, or eating a pork free meal, or...) really that much of a threat to us?

[cabinessence]

2 hours ago, HerrDrFunk said:

You do know that the French had poetry, science and free will before the revolution, right? I'm not saying things were better under the monarchy but you and @Mustapha seem to be implying that as soon as the French got rid of it, things were all sunshine and rainbows for them. When in reality they continued to kill each other in large numbers and when they got tired of that, they switched over to their neighbours. 

I am implying nothing of the sort. How has terrorism and public safety improved of late in France. How many of the terrorist attacks have been from the Jehovah' Witnesses? Find me a country that has flourished under strict religious law. Take a look at the list and find the common denominator:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_France

 

Now look at the vast history of terrorism in Sweden and Denmark. If you find the common denominator there is guys named Lars and Leif, you might need to move up the alphabet by a letter.

 

[Hugor Hill]

7 hours ago, Mustapha said:

Your attempts at shaming me are futile. You have demonstrated consistently that you don't have a clear understanding of the issues.

 

Proclaiming that Islam is the 2nd most popular religion in France proves my point further. It is an oppressive religion that forces itself into the landscape of every nation where it has influence.

 

In the Middle East and North Africa, Religious laws tend to supersede secular laws. They also have a tendency to be run by dictators, religious leaders and authoritarian monarchs.

 

France became a free democratic nation by violently overthrowing the 'Ancien Regime' which had many of the same characteristics as several current Islamic nations

 

-Absolute monarchy

-Power rooted in religion

-Church courts

-Oppression of those who do not follow (French Huguenots, Cathars)

 

All of that progress since 1789 will be for naught if France capitulates to another form of religious oppression.

 

Being a 'free democratic' society does not include the right to oppress others in burkinis or niqabs and France is in the right to start restricting it.

 

 

OMG you are so uninformed, closed minded and ethnocentric. Why is Christianity in the Philippines, for instance, if it didn't force itself onto the local population by the Spanish? In fact, why is Christianity found in places on earth where there aren't many Caucasian Europeans??

 

This is what religion does. It spreads like a virus everywhere it goes. Islam and Christianity are both alike in that regards.

 

The only people who are doing religion oppression in France are the people who are not letting people wear the clothes they want.

 

Jesus (expletive)! Get real man.

 

 

 

 

 

[riffraff]

[Mustapha]

6 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said:

OMG you are so uninformed, closed minded and ethnocentric. Why is Christianity in the Philippines, for instance, if it didn't force itself onto the local population by the Spanish? In fact, why is Christianity found in places on earth where there aren't many Caucasian Europeans??

 

This is what religion does. It spreads like a virus everywhere it goes. Islam and Christianity are both alike in that regards.

 

The only people who are doing religion oppression in France are the people who are not letting people wear the clothes they want.

 

Jesus (expletive)! Get real man.

 

 

 

 

 

Ad hominem attacks labeling me as 'closed minded' and 'ethnocentric' or 'uninformed' are not arguments.

 

I am not going to equate Islamic oppression today with European imperialism that occurred centuries ago. 

 

The key difference is western nations with high Christian populations not only adapted to Enlightenment values, but had a hand in establishing them.

 

The USA is considered to be among the most religious nations the West, and yet, they embrace personal freedoms the most. They're one of the only nations on Earth with true freedom of expression granted by the First Amendment and a Constitution that does not endorse any specific religion.

 

If Islam and Christianity are two sides of the same coin,  please, show me the tolerant, open minded, non-authoritarian, secular and democratic

government in the Middle East.

 

By the way, there is plenty of Islamic  religious oppression in France. Remember Charlie Hebdo? The Paris attacks? Nice? 

 

They literally cut off a priest's head last month for god's sake.

 

If I am 'ethnocentric' for criticizing it, that makes you a morally defective disgusting human being for defending it.

 

 

 

 

[riffraff]

8 minutes ago, Mustapha said:

Ad hominem attacks labeling me as 'closed minded' and 'ethnocentric' or 'uninformed' are not arguments.

 

I am not going to equate Islamic oppression today with European imperialism that occurred centuries ago. 

 

The key difference is western nations with high Christian populations not only adapted to Enlightenment values, but had a hand in establishing them.

 

The USA is considered to be among the most religious nations the West, and yet, they embrace personal freedoms the most. They're one of the only nations on Earth with true freedom of expression granted by the First Amendment and a Constitution that does not endorse any specific religion.

 

If Islam and Christianity are two sides of the same coin,  please, show me the tolerant, open minded, non-authoritarian, secular and democratic

government in the Middle East.

 

By the way, there is plenty of Islamic  religious oppression in France. Remember Charlie Hebdo? The Paris attacks? Nice? 

 

They literally cut off a priest's head last month for god's sake.

 

If I am 'ethnocentric' for criticizing it, that makes you a morally defective disgusting human being for defending it.

 

 

 

 

 

[derr12]

The hell is a bikini? Is that a martini with a burka instead of a little umbrella?