torts comments are bang on

[Vinny in Vancouver]

Team Canada's coach Mike Babcock seems sympathetic to Torts: 

"This is what I know: I'm not going to have to make that decision because that's not going to happen. So I don't have to worry about that reaction. At that time I guess I would decide what to do. One of the greatest things about this tournament is that most of us get to play for your country, and that's a thrill of a lifetime in itself. And then when you get to do it on Canadian soil, that's another thrill. For those of us who have the life we have, and the freedom we have, to repay respects to the people who went before us and made sure that happened; I mean, it's pretty straightforward and common sense to me. But I don't know why we're talking about this."

[Fakename70]

19 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said:

 

[linden17]

11 hours ago, darkpoet said:

With regards to the stand or not stand issue:

You can be proud of where you're from, and still protest the people running it.

I like that I'm from Canada, proud? meh, IMO nationalism is a disease. The people running this country? No, i don't like them, and I'm not proud of them, so they can all go pound sand.

Does that mean I can't wear a Canadian jersey? Of course not. The country are the people, not the nincumpoops running it. 

just my 2 bits.

The last person who should be talking about pride/honour and what it means is Tortilla. Go eat a bag of chips you frackin' blowhard... 

u make a great point..

[alt kilgore]

On 2016-09-07 at 0:56 PM, Tortorella's Rant said:

A better and more effective protest would've been to skip playing on the team altogether. So to sit the anthem but still represent you country by playing is like saying "I care, sort of, but not really enough to do more than the bare minimum."

Smart for choosing that handle. Obviously you knew we wouldn't  have heard the last Tort rant back then.

 

That said, I disagree. As someone else pointed out, one can still love their country, and want to play for their country, but be upset about something going on within your country and have a desire to speak up about it.  In hopes of actually helping your country.  And just not participating is a bit of a cop out. What more apropos time to bring attention to a national issue than when in a forum where the nation is in the spotlight?

 

Of course its also Tort's decision as the coach to bench any player for any reason. Hopefully Kane will sit.

[Monty]

As a Jets fan, would LOVE for Buff to sit. If anyone can get away with it on that roster, it's him. Large personality when he says so little.

[BCNeil]

On 9/7/2016 at 2:32 AM, Bob.Loblaw said:

The tournament is stupid.  What will the U-23 team stand for?  What will Team Europe stand for?

U-23 will be using a Kanye West song as their anthem......Team Europe has gone with some German techno.

[BCNeil]

It's funny because none of team Canada's players would have any interest in sitting during our anthem.

I wonder if their are ANY Canadian athletes that would?  

[elvis15]

2 hours ago, BCNeil said:

It's funny because none of team Canada's players would have any interest in sitting during our anthem.

I wonder if their are ANY Canadian athletes that would?  

And you know this how? In America it's in protest for black lives, rights for everyone and gun violence (among other things). In Canada, well it could be in protest against pipelines, or in support of any of the native issues (like the missing women, water quality or rights).

[Alflives]

3 hours ago, Monty said:

As a Jets fan, would LOVE for Buff to sit. If anyone can get away with it on that roster, it's him. Large personality when he says so little.

Maybe it's a move forward if the players who sit/kneel are not only the brown guys?  I don't know what issues we have domestically are of this significance, but I would hope colour of a guy's skin wouldn't be on the list.  

[WhoseTruckWasIt]

On 9/7/2016 at 3:32 AM, Bob.Loblaw said:

The tournament is stupid.  What will the U-23 team stand for?  What will Team Europe stand for?

Yeah, the Olympics are so great, and so untarnished.  The entire Russian team gets disqualified, and now the Olympics are going back there.  So, we can have a tournament that's not focused on hockey, that doesn't consider the North American broadcast schedule, on the no-offense big ice, that's not even close to competitive.  Go nationalism.

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

7 minutes ago, WhoseTruckWasIt said:

Yeah, the Olympics are so great, and so untarnished.  The entire Russian team gets disqualified, and now the Olympics are going back there.  So, we can have a tournament that's not focused on hockey, that doesn't consider the North American broadcast schedule, on the no-offense big ice, that's not even close to competitive.  Go nationalism.

This was about national anthems in a tournament that does not exclusively feature national teams.  There is no merit in your comments or Torts'.

[WhoseTruckWasIt]

6 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

This was about national anthems in a tournament that does not exclusively feature national teams.  There is no merit in your comments or Torts'.

True enough.  Almost a non-sequitor.  I'm provoked by the constant dumping on the World Cup but I shouldn't have chosen your comment to respond to, or done it in this thread I suppose.

[Mr.53]

13 hours ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

I've never been a Torts fan, but wow, you completely misrepresented what Torts said. Not cool. Here, let me quote you what he said,

"Try to understand me. I'm not criticizing anybody for stepping up and putting their thoughts out there about things. I'm the furthest thing away from being anything political. No chance I'm involved in that stuff. Listen, We're in a great country because we can express ourselves. And I am not against expressing yourselves. That's what's great about our country. We can do that. But when there are men and women that give their lives for their flag, for their anthem, have given their lives, continue to put themselves on the line with our services for our flag, for our anthem, families that have been disrupted, traumatic physical injuries, traumatic mental injuries for these people that give us the opportunity to do the things we want to do, there's no chance an anthem and a flag should come into any type of situation where you're trying to make a point.It is probably the most disrespectful thing you can do as a U.S. citizen is to bring that in. Because that's our symbol. All for [expressing] yourself. That's what's so great. Everybody does. But no chance when it comes to the flag and the anthem. No chance...But if I was ever involved in a situation where someone is trying to make a point, and they have a perfect right to do that, but to disrespect our flag and anthem, as I said yesterday, they would not play. If that ever happened, there's no question, it's just not right. And it's not black, white, blue, red. It has nothing to do with the politics of all of this. It's just not right. This is our country. Our people are fighting for our country, our flag and our anthem. That shouldn't come into this equation at all. There are other ways of doing things."
 

Earlier Wednesday, a member of the U.S. Army addressed the team but neither Tortorella nor the members of Team USA would describe the exchange.

"We are playing hockey," Tortorella said. "Other people are doing real stuff. This gentleman who spoke to us this morning is doing the real stuff. Life and death. We just want to give to our country in our own little way. Quite honestly we are entertainers. What this man talked about in our locker room and what he does casts a huge shadow over us as far as what we're doing."

And I still disagree with him 100 percent. I'm with Kaepernick. The flag and the anthem are not the end goal. The people of the country are the end goal. If a person wants to use their high profile position with millions of fans and people who watch to send a message to make the country a better place for all citizens, you have no business trying to keep them from saying it and therefore, doing right by their community because you personally disagree. He's basically saying that you can express yourself but you can't disrespect the flag and the anthem because men and women have died for that flag. No they did not. They died for the country and what the country was supposed to be. A country where every citizen is treated with dignity, respect, and has the right not to be killed in the street without due process guaranteed by the constitution. Right now that's not happening. The flag is not the be all end all. The country and it's citizens are. If someone wants to use that flag, and their first amendment rights, you have no business trying to stop them, and no business benching them. Tortorella is still wrong, and I have still lost respect for him.

[Vinny in Vancouver]

2 hours ago, Mr.53 said:

And I still disagree with him 100 percent. I'm with Kaepernick. The flag and the anthem are not the end goal. The people of the country are the end goal. If a person wants to use their high profile position with millions of fans and people who watch to send a message to make the country a better place for all citizens, you have no business trying to keep them from saying it and therefore, doing right by their community because you personally disagree. He's basically saying that you can express yourself but you can't disrespect the flag and the anthem because men and women have died for that flag. No they did not. They died for the country and what the country was supposed to be. A country where every citizen is treated with dignity, respect, and has the right not to be killed in the street without due process guaranteed by the constitution. Right now that's not happening. The flag is not the be all end all. The country and it's citizens are. If someone wants to use that flag, and their first amendment rights, you have no business trying to stop them, and no business benching them. Tortorella is still wrong, and I have still lost respect for him.

Well, Kaepernick is saying that the flag represents the country, "When there's significant change and I feel like that flag represents what it's supposed to represent, this country is representing people the way that it's supposed to, I'll stand."

Also, I don't think you get what Torts and Kaepernick are really saying. Let me ask you this, if you are a coach of a tournament where the players are being asked to represent your country, and one of your players said, "I can't take pride for this country because it's oppressing my people", would you choose that player to be on your team? Because that's what Kap said: "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color." I respect Kap for having the guts to do what he's doing (he's currently persona non grata in many places), but I'm almost sure that if he were asked to play for a Team USA right now, he will politely decline because he currently doesn't take pride in his country.

 

That's fine to disagree with Torts, but at least, people should present his side properly. That has been one of the biggest issues in this whole mess - whether deliberately or not, people aren't accurately presenting the other side. 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

Well, Kaepernick is saying that the flag represents the country, "When there's significant change and I feel like that flag represents what it's supposed to represent, this country is representing people the way that it's supposed to, I'll stand."

Also, I don't think you get what Torts and Kaepernick are really saying. Let me ask you this, if you are a coach of a tournament where the players are being asked to represent your country, and one of your players said, "I can't take pride for this country because it's oppressing my people", would you choose that player to be on your team? Because that's what Kap said: "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color." I respect Kap for having the guts to do what he's doing (he's currently persona non grata in many places), but I'm almost sure that if he were asked to play for a Team USA right now, he will politely decline because he currently doesn't take pride in his country.

 

That's fine to disagree with Torts, but at least, people should present his side properly. That has been one of the biggest issues in this whole mess - whether deliberately or not, people aren't accurately presenting the other side. 

Exactly correct.  

[Mr.53]

Just now, vinny_in_vancouver said:

Well, Kaepernick is saying that the flag represents the country, "When there's significant change and I feel like that flag represents what it's supposed to represent, this country is representing people the way that it's supposed to, I'll stand."

Also, I don't think you get what Torts and Kaepernick are really saying. Let me ask you this, if you are a coach of a tournament where the players are being asked to represent your country, and one of your players said, "I can't take pride for this country because it's oppressing my people", would you choose that player to be on your team? Because that's what Kap said: "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color." I respect Kap for having the guts to do what he's doing (he's currently persona non grata in many places), but I'm almost sure that if he were asked to play for a Team USA right now, he will politely decline because he currently doesn't take pride in his country.

 

That's fine to disagree with Torts, but at least, people should present his side properly. That has been one of the biggest issues in this whole mess - whether deliberately or not, people aren't accurately presenting the other side. 

To answer your question, yes, i would. I would let them sit, I would let the cameras show him center stage, and then I'll play my game. To me, he is a citizen of the country expressing his views. As a coach I wouldn't stop that. I would focus on winning hockey games. This is an issue bigger than hockey, bigger than a song, and bigger than a piece of fabric. By any non violent means necessary, Kaepernick is doing right by his citizens and fellow black people. As a coach I would not stop him, even if I disagreed with him personally.

[Vinny in Vancouver]

30 minutes ago, Mr.53 said:

To answer your question, yes, i would. I would let them sit, I would let the cameras show him center stage, and then I'll play my game. To me, he is a citizen of the country expressing his views. As a coach I wouldn't stop that. I would focus on winning hockey games. This is an issue bigger than hockey, bigger than a song, and bigger than a piece of fabric. By any non violent means necessary, Kaepernick is doing right by his citizens and fellow black people. As a coach I would not stop him, even if I disagreed with him personally.

I wouldn't be surprised if Torts actually agrees with your second to the last sentence. I think he would also agree with your last sentence in the context of a normal NHL game. But the context of the question is this tournament, and I think this is the part that I think you may not be getting. I'm sure one of the initial criteria for the player selection group of each country is whether the player currently takes pride in the country. So for a player to say 'yes' to that and a short while later to say, 'actually, no, I don't currently take pride in this country' is deceitful. Again, the context here is Team USA and not the San Francisco 49ers or the Columbia Blue Jackets. That's 2 completely different contexts.

[Mr.53]

5 hours ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Torts actually agrees with your second to the last sentence. I think he would also agree with your last sentence in the context of a normal NHL game. But the context of the question is this tournament, and I think this is the part that I think you may not be getting. I'm sure one of the initial criteria for the player selection group of each country is whether the player currently takes pride in the country. So for a player to say 'yes' to that and a short while later to say, 'actually, no, I don't currently take pride in this country' is deceitful. Again, the context here is Team USA and not the San Francisco 49ers or the Columbia Blue Jackets. That's 2 completely different contexts.

Very eloquently put. And I do get your point 100%. He's on team America, so you don't disrespect the American flag and anthem; however, I am a man that believes in progress. I think it's more important to do something that can try and change things and do right by your community, than it is to stand silently. Even if I'm a coach I would understand if someone wanted to make a statement for personal reasons.

[Ghostsof1915]

Isn't what Kaep doing probably a great thing to get people talking and isn't that what democracy is all about? Finding common ground?

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Isn't what Kaep doing probably a great thing to get people talking and isn't that what democracy is all about? Finding common ground?

No, what he is doing is only for his own selfish intention, and is more totalitarian in nature.  

 

Now, where do we find common ground?