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For Draftists/TankNation Only: What's a Realistic Well-Thought Out Plan for Next Few Years?


westvandude

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You have to draft well and hope to get lucky. Think Doughty and Keith. There is a lot of luck in hockey. The Canucks will always be a little behind because of their geolocation. They are not Toronto or NYR or LA. So they will pay a little more to get players to come to Vancouver. They have the ownership to do that, they just need to draft and develop better.

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2 hours ago, Nice Finnish said:

You have to draft well and hope to get lucky. Think Doughty and Keith. There is a lot of luck in hockey. The Canucks will always be a little behind because of their geolocation. They are not Toronto or NYR or LA. So they will pay a little more to get players to come to Vancouver. They have the ownership to do that, they just need to draft and develop better.

I agree with you.  The Canucks have had to pay a little bit more for them to come to Vancouver but the problem is, they paid wrong players in their 30's.   My solution, pay them a little bit more on their RFA years and hope that other teams don't match once we are on upswing and can afford to give away draft picks once our cupboard is full and are sure that we are not a lottery team.   Paying a little bit more on UFA is a bad idea and it doesn't work out for us anymore: Vrbata on his 2nd year and Loui Eriksson's contract.   The RFA is worth more than the UFA because we'd have his service for a long while and will pay off in a long run even losing draft picks.  The players with RFA contract would then play harder to secure their next bigger payout than UFA at end of his career on a downswing.  The ideal term for a RFA signing at top dollars is 3-4 years, than the long term contract at 7 years on a slightly lower cap hit..  The only UFA is worth signing in a fair market is for 4th liner grinder or the bottom D pairing to fill up in case if our young guys is not ready.  

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6 minutes ago, coolboarder said:

I agree with you.  The Canucks have had to pay a little bit more for them to come to Vancouver but the problem is, they paid wrong players in their 30's.   My solution, pay them a little bit more on their RFA years and hope that other teams don't match once we are on upswing and can afford to give away draft picks once our cupboard is full and are sure that we are not a lottery team.   Paying a little bit more on UFA is a bad idea and it doesn't work out for us anymore: Vrbata on his 2nd year and Loui Eriksson's contract.   The RFA is worth more than the UFA because we'd have his service for a long while and will pay off in a long run even losing draft picks.  The players with RFA contract would then play harder to secure their next bigger payout than UFA at end of his career on a downswing.  The ideal term for a RFA signing at top dollars is 3-4 years, than the long term contract at 7 years on a slightly lower cap hit..  The only UFA is worth signing in a fair market is for 4th liner grinder or the bottom D pairing to fill up in case if our young guys is not ready.  

Eric Staal seems to be doing wonders in Minnesota.   Too bad we didn't go after him instead.  You do pay a premium for UFAs given they are in their late prime.   In way you pay for certainty.  It's too bad Ericcson isn't working out but he did the same thing when he went to Boston so maybe next year his production will go closer to normal.  Benning should steer clear of these guys until the club can contend again then get them at a better rate and pick the right guy not just anybody.

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On 10/01/2017 at 9:21 AM, terrible.dee said:

seriously, do you know anything at all about hockey or the NHL?

 

PENGUINS : tanked/ Lemieux/ 91.92 cup winners

RANGERS: tanked/ Leech/ 94 cup

Colorado : tanked/ Sakic Forsberg, and too many others to mention, 96, 2002 champs

Detroit: tanked: Yzerman, Premix traded for Shanahan 97, 98, 2002, 2007 Stanley cups

Tampa tanked Lecavalier  2004 cup

Carolins: tanked/ Justin Stall Rod Brindamour via trade for Primeau  2006 cup

Penguins Sidney Crosby, Malkin, MAF ect. ect. 2008 2013 Stanley cup 

Blackhawks tanked Taves Kane 2010 2012 20016 Stanley cups 

Bruins tanked Bergeron Seguin via trade for Kessel 2011 champs

 

In fact the ONLY teams who have won cups without tanking for stars in the last 30 plus years have been the Devils and Canadians

 

You officially have NO idea what you are talking about

 

 

I think you have the word tank confused with suck.  But that's ok. Yes I agree by that definition that teams suck there way into draft picks that eventually help them win the cup.  Oh and Dallas drafted Modano when they tanked so you can add that to your list.

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1 minute ago, IBatch said:

I think you have the word tank confused with suck.  But that's ok. Yes I agree by that definition that teams suck there way into draft picks that eventually help them win the cup.  Oh and Dallas drafted Modano when they tanked so you can add that to your list.

So to win Cups a team needs to get those top draft picks, right?  

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On 1/10/2017 at 6:21 AM, terrible.dee said:

seriously, do you know anything at all about hockey or the NHL?

 

PENGUINS : tanked/ Lemieux/ 91.92 cup winners

RANGERS: tanked/ Leech/ 94 cup

Colorado : tanked/ Sakic Forsberg, and too many others to mention, 96, 2002 champs

Detroit: tanked: Yzerman, Premix traded for Shanahan 97, 98, 2002, 2007 Stanley cups

Tampa tanked Lecavalier  2004 cup

Carolins: tanked/ Justin Stall Rod Brindamour via trade for Primeau  2006 cup

Penguins Sidney Crosby, Malkin, MAF ect. ect. 2008 2013 Stanley cup 

Blackhawks tanked Taves Kane 2010 2012 20016 Stanley cups 

Bruins tanked Bergeron Seguin via trade for Kessel 2011 champs

 

In fact the ONLY teams who have won cups without tanking for stars in the last 30 plus years have been the Devils and Canadians

 

You officially have NO idea what you are talking about

 

 

I'm going to take one example from what you said above.

 

"Blackhawks tanked Toews Kane" 

 

Toews = 3rd overall pick 2006, Kane = 1st overall pick 2007. Where did the Hawks finish those years? Let's take a look:

 

2006: Chicago finishes 3rd last in the league (Canucks did the same last year).

2007: Chicago finishes 5th last in the league (Canucks finished 6th last in 2014).

 

All of their other first round picks (Keith, Seabrook, Schmaltz, etc.) were later picks. Free agent signings of Hossa and Campbell along the way helped their case of course, however the backbone of their team was based around a 3rd last and a 5th last finish. Remember the Canucks had a 3rd last and 6th last finish in the last three years, and what's looking like another bottom 5 finish this year.

 

How did Chicago get Patrick Kane? They won the lottery. How did Pittsburgh get Sidney Crosby? They won the lottery (bad example though, as Malkin and Fleury were also 1st/2nd overall picks in the years prior). My point being that the lottery plays a huge part in this process, in addition to the players available. What if we tanked and got Erik Johnson? What if we came in 5th last, won the lottery, and got McDavid? There's no formula to building your team through tanking - there shouldn't be. Winnipeg got Laine even though we had better odds. The lottery is even tougher to win now even if you're the last place team.  

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9 hours ago, Alflives said:

So to win Cups a team needs to get those top draft picks, right?  

Yes you do or more accurately you need good drafting every team has miffed on their high picks a few times and stars sometimes are found in latter rounds.  I wonder if the league changed the rules more to do with trying to shake up the vanilla/parity than the anything else.  The old rules gaurnteed the worst team second.  Now one in five odds to win first as the worst team is pretty bad TO is one lucky team.   Then again if we finish say fifth and end up with first....I guess WNP isn't complaining.  At some point they may have to switch back having a bad team used to mean something that at least you got a high pick to help right your ship it might take the GMs a few times getting robbed at the draft table or bad teams getting mired in a cycle of poor pick luck to change things back.  What happens if a good team that's underperforming like Dallas just missed the playoffs and then through a stroke of luck gets first?  Or a bad team keeps getting boned and ends up pulling three or four slots later than the old rules would?    If Benning is supposed to be good at this....Next years draft ten players could go first and some scouts say Patrick is a second line center...So we need some great drafting to pull something off.  2018 is better maybe the team should consider selling for those picks....

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On 2016-11-01 at 5:30 PM, combover said:

I'm not a tank fan but this team /organization lacks the talent,skill,scoring to compete now and in the future so it won't be hard to have good draft positions for the next 3-5 years. And if benning and ownership continue down this short sighted win now garbage mandate it'll be more like 5-10 years. 

 

So start by playing the kids, a lot. see what we actually have to work with. Make sure coaching is onboard with the development. Trade guys like tanev (I like him but) if a Larson in Edmonton can get Hall  then look for deals like that. Take more no risk moves on waiver guys that are still very young. Also college  seems to be producing good Ufa prospects, with more opportunity to play it might be easy to entice more to come to Vancouver. 

don't focus so much on "character" speed skill size that's what wins. 

DON'T TRADE ANY DRAFT PICKS instead acquire as many as possible.  

Stay away from older  ufas they serve no purpose at this point. 

 

 

Well said no supplementary needed the bus should be on auto pilot intuitive plug an play JB does his job right we win.

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On 11/1/2016 at 7:54 PM, janisahockeynut said:

Drastic remodeling = Drastic moves

 

Sam Reinhart is a 3rd line center in Buffalo right now. Buffalo having Ryan O'Reilly and Jack Eichel, can afford to move Reinhart if the return works for them. The question what is the return? The good thing about Sam is he is a 2nd year player and he has shown success in the NHL already. 

 

Would anyone take ...........Reinhart, Kane...........for ...........Horvat and Virtanen ?

 

Personally, as much as I love Bo, he doesn't look to be an elite center, which I think Reinhart has the potential to be, and I think Virtanen is a 3rd line player for the most part. I also think this gives us more options going into the next 2 years, because we are not forced to look for that #1 center, or #1 dman, or first line winger, we just take what is up and fill in. I also think it is way easier to find that 2nd line center, either through the draft or free agency.

 

Yes we take a step back, and yes it hurts, but we get the best player in the trade, and although there is risk, Kane has alot of potential, and he is worth the risk, as was Kassian in Edmonton. 

 

I would also like to get Michael McCarron out of Montreal, which may mean another drastic move, so I would offer the following....................

 

Tanev, Jordan Subban and 2017-3rd..............for ........McCarron, Noah Juulsen and 1-2017 2nd rounder and 1-2018 2nd rounder

 

Lots of moving pieces and again, there is risk, but at the end of the day we have filled our roster with young players and increased tenacity, and increased our chances of a proper tank and prospects.

 

                         2018-2019 Roster                                                                                 Prospects/Picks

 

    Kane               Reinhart             Broeser                                                       2017 1st (Van) (1st to 4th)

Grandlund            Sutter                Erikson                                                       2017 2nd (Van) (31st)

 Baertschi           McCarron           Hansen                                                       2017 2nd (CBJ) (34th)

    XXX                 Gaunce                XXX                                                          2017 2nd (Mtl)  (56th)

                                                                                                                         2018 1st (Van)  (1st to 4th)

                Juolevi               Stecher                                                                   2018 2nd (Van) (31st)

                Hutton              Gudbranson                                                             2018 2nd (Mtl) (56th)

             Briseboise            Tryamkin                                                                 2018 3rd (Van)  (61st)

 

                          Markstrom

                             Demko

 

Now when you look at the line up, you are missing Hank, Danny, Edler, and Miller which equals = $25,000,000 + $2,400,000 from this year + rise in Cap? = A lot of money for upgrades, and we still didn't trade the Sedin's and we still have a chance somewhere along the line to move Edler, Hansen, Sbisa, Dorsett, and Miller somewhere along the line for additional picks.

 

This also does not include any of our late picks that could develope (Lockwood?McKenzie?Neill?Candella?Gaudette?)

 

My names Jan and I am a Tanker!

 

 

 

 

 

You have some interesting points. But Janis isn't it a little bit premature to say that Horvat who is in his third year is not going to be an a  elite center? A kid who has improved his game every year he's been here.   Would you have said that a few years ago about Kesler , or a  H. Sedin ,  They didn't look like Elite Center in their third year in the league either.  We could also say that Reinhart has potential but so does Horvat .

You maybe right on Virtanen . but I also remember people were saying the same thing on a young Cam Neely .

Yes being a tanker will not guarantee job security for a Gm ,Coaching staff or even players for that matter. , but reality is they're going to do whatever it takes to make this team compete every night. And players are not going to tank  when they have jobs to fight for. Remember this is their livelihood. Nobody is Guarantee that we will get the first pick overall with as tank. No guarantee that first pick will not be a bust or that a late pick will not be a superstar. We could draft Owen Tippet and he may or may not turn out.   How many top 5 picks did we get in the 70's and 80's Janis? How did that worked out for us. Also did you put into consideration who your going to expose to the expansion draft?

 I can understand where your coming from Janis. But that's a pretty big gamble that may or may not work.

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