Early Season Musings: A Big Head Edition

[Toyotasfan]

The Latest Rangers game was a blip, they were embarrassed at home and had an axe to grind against us. But overall there is lots of effort but no finish. Nobody is giving up yet , they are playing hard for Willy. The Canucks need help at Forward. They aren't too far off . 

[Salacious Crumb]

10 minutes ago, alfstonker said:

 

He might be the solution in 2 years, in fact I think he would.

 

In the meantime no one is going to get this team to the playoffs if we can't convert our NUMEROUS chances. And if we can, most of us would not be having this conversation. This is a player problem, a timeline replacement problem, that had its roots in the last 4 seasons of Gillis's management. 

 

We have to get 20 promising players channeled through Utica, at present we maybe have 6-8 in the pipeline. In two years we will be up at about 12 and in 3 years hopefully 18-20. If JB has done his job we will get 6-8 who will boost this team up the league.

 

Why anyone expects it to happen any other way defeats me. Every successful team in the league has taken 5-8 years to build a contender.

I would have to finally agree with you. It's all about patience - we are 2 years into a rebuild, that's it. 

 

Your last paragraph should be part of the sign-in to get to cdc. We had chicken crap 3 years ago and although JB has has some loses amongst his wins there have been so many positives. In the next couple of years we get more young guys stepping in (the usual 3 dudes) and see salary peeled way back with high priced vets off the books.

 

In 2020 we will be crushing the Oilers and the Flames and that's a great start. A vocal part of our fanbase has been spoiled by 10 years of supporting a good team and now that we are at the bottom of the sports cycle they come here to display their impatience.

 

Look at the bright side if life. As fans it's still great to cheer for your favourite players/team AND tickets are finally available and affordable for fans who couldn't afford to 5-10 years ago.

[alfstonker]

21 minutes ago, Toyotasfan said:

The Latest Rangers game was a blip, they were embarrassed at home and had an axe to grind against us. But overall there is lots of effort but no finish. Nobody is giving up yet , they are playing hard for Willy. The Canucks need help at Forward. They aren't too far off . 

 

I thought that too. I thought we played great up to the middle of the third. 

[khay]

31 minutes ago, Toyotasfan said:

The Latest Rangers game was a blip, they were embarrassed at home and had an axe to grind against us. But overall there is lots of effort but no finish. Nobody is giving up yet , they are playing hard for Willy. The Canucks need help at Forward. They aren't too far off . 

I agree they are playing hard. And their play has been better of late. 

 

But as for Canucks needing help at forward... unless that forward is McDavid, Crosby, Kopitar, Toewes, or Patrick Kane... I don't think any one forward can help this team become a playoff contender. The only possible way for this team to have a chance at the playoffs is for the boys to start playing a good team. Supporting each other in all three zones, making crisp passes to break out and create chances in the offensive zone by moving to empty spaces without the puck and having the puck delivered to that space just in time (passing to the space rather than to the player as they do in soccer)... these are the things that highly performing teams do on a nightly basis (see the game against NYR as an example).

 

What this team needs is more of the youth to improve (Horvat, Granlund, Baertschi, Gaunce, Stecher, Tryamkin) and the prospects in the pipeline to come through (Virtanen, Boeser, Juolevi, Demko). It's going to take few years. In the meantime, I think the most fans are going to be happy as long as the games are exciting and that the boys play a good team game. The troubling fact is that the games aren't that interesting although it has been better as of late. Hopefully they keep playing hard like they did the last few games and build some good team chemistry.

 

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, khay said:

I agree they are playing hard. And their play has been better of late. 

 

But as for Canucks needing help at forward... unless that forward is McDavid, Crosby, Kopitar, Toewes, or Patrick Kane... I don't think any one forward can help this team become a playoff contender. The only possible way for this team to have a chance at the playoffs is for the boys to start playing a good team. Supporting each other in all three zones, making crisp passes to break out and create chances in the offensive zone by moving to empty spaces without the puck and having the puck delivered to that space just in time (passing to the space rather than to the player as they do in soccer)... these are the things that highly performing teams do on a nightly basis (see the game against NYR as an example).

 

What this team needs is more of the youth to improve (Horvat, Granlund, Baertschi, Gaunce, Stecher, Tryamkin) and the prospects in the pipeline to come through (Virtanen, Boeser, Juolevi, Demko). It's going to take few years. In the meantime, I think the most fans are going to be happy as long as the games are exciting and that the boys play a good team game. The troubling fact is that the games aren't that interesting although it has been better as of late. Hopefully they keep playing hard like they did the last few games and build some good team chemistry.

 

So basically you want to see the youth play a bigger role, and less minutes to the Twins.  I'm in that boat too.

[khay]

Just now, Alflives said:

So basically you want to see the youth play a bigger role, and less minutes to the Twins.  I'm in that boat too.

Yes. It doesn't have to be much less. I think 18 minutes for the twins is about right. Now they are playing 21 minutes. That 3 minutes can be distributed to the youth. Maybe 1 minute of PP to the 2nd unit and 1 minute of ozone start to Horvat or Granlund line? Not much but they will add up.

 

It will be good for the Sedins too. It will keep them fresh and motivated.

[Mathew Barzal]

4 hours ago, CeeBee51 said:

How many years does one have to coach to not be considered a "rookie" ?

 

Fair enough, poor use of terminology. You know what I mean though.

[darkpoet]

The Sedins need to adjust their game and start shooting more. A LOT more.

If established goalies who've won a Vezina like Miller, can have coaches come in and "adjust" things so they adapt to the changes happening in the game, then it should be ok for Art Ross winners to do the same.

That last game.... I was ready to %$# punt my TV. There were several grade A shooting opportunities for those guys and they just pass it off. Especially on the power play. WAY too much time is wasted passing the puck back and forth on the half wall. STOP!

Pass that thing back to the point and let Stecher fire away at it (he had what? it seemed like 8 shots last game??) and go to the net to catch a bounce.

Playing pong along the boards is a waste of time and teams are all too willing to just cover them while they play catch, meanwhile the PP clock is running down.

[SaintPatrick33]

6 hours ago, S'all Good Man said:

Can we at least wait until Toronto actually wins something this century before we say that they are the team to emulate?

 

Ahem, I do believe Toronto won the draft lottery, they also won the Babcock sweepstakes, they also won 2 former league officials in Shanahan and Lou. Thats a lot of winning right there man

[JM_]

27 minutes ago, SaintPatrick33 said:

 

Ahem, I do believe Toronto won the draft lottery, they also won the Babcock sweepstakes, they also won 2 former league officials in Shanahan and Lou. Thats a lot of winning right there man

 

Cool. And game wins? 

[oldnews]

13 hours ago, Horvats_Big_Head said:

Hello all, I've taken a break from the boards the last couple weeks, because I wanted to just wait and see how the team performed up until now. I have watched, or tried to watch, most games throughout this terrible stretch of Canucks hockey, and want to sort through all of the CDC BS so possibly we can come up with some real solutions to the problem. Here are my observations:

 

1. After a hot 4-0 start, we have now just obtained 5 out of a possible 26 points in the last 13 games. That is just abyssmal. Added to the fact that in the first 3 wins of the season we never led ONCE in the game. They have played well as a unit throughout stretches of games, but seem to give up far too many opportunities against. They were lucky to even have a chance in the Dallas win last Sunday.

 

2. WD's deployment is again at the center of controversy. Never plays Jakes, and when he does, gives Jake hardly any chance to prove himself. I thought earlier in the year, it was fun to watch Jake, Baer, and Horvat on a line, and thought that should've stayed that way. However, I am glad Jake is in Utica now, away from WD. Aside from the Virt situation, playing Dorsett in the top 6, starting the season with Horvat at on 4th line (glad thats over), not matching up the Sedins to weaker D pairs, the amount he plays Jack "no" Skille, are just a few of the other very questionable decisions by this inexperienced coach. Did I say I hate his twitching? I really hate it, he looks so nervous all the time it must rub off on the players in some way. I give WD until the midway point of the season to either resurrect this group, or be fired. He won't be fired before Christmas, that is for sure. 

 

3. Young players: I am not even going to go into Baer but he has struggled mightily this year. He just needs to start finishing his chances. Horvat has been a beast this year and has surpassed my expectations. I truly think he is the future C of this team and he is proving it with every game. Stecher has been a nice surprise, although his defensive play is not real good, his offensive skills and puck moving ability out weigh that for now in my opinion. Hutton has taken a little bit of a step back this year but I think he will work his way out of it.

The real disappointment for me this year has been Gaunce, which I don't see a lot of chatter about. He was great in preseason, but watching him every game gets me questioning if he is NHL ready. A lot of his passes are off the mark or get blocked, he seems to lose a majority of 50/50 battles along the boards, which is something I would expect him to excel at. I know he is only the 4C, but I don't really see him bringing much energy to the team, other than him skating hard around the ice not really accomplishing a whole lot. I honestly can't picture Gaunce taking one shot on goal from what I have watched. If anybody disagrees with me here I would like to know, because at this point, he is a fringe NHLer. 

 

4. The rest of the season: So what kind of team are we? Are we rebuilding or are we going for the playoffs? I think most fans hope for the former, but nobody truly knows. JB should know, but I doubt he does either. If we are going for the playoffs and trade either Hutton/Tanev for Kane, I think that would be a huge mistake. Some say that the emergence of Stecher has made Tanev expendable, but I can see that our defensive coverage is MUCH worse without Tanev. Losing Hutton would be even more catastrophic, the kid has a bright future and is just working through a sophomore slump. The only defenceman I can stomach losing would be Sbisa, but thats not going to happen. To get Kane we would have to add a great piece on top of Sbisa for Buffalo to even consider it. The way I see it, adding another top 6 forward is too expensive for our future right now, we should be focused on getting another high draft pick this year, firing WD, and turning this ship around next year with more experience for our younger players and more young players coming through the pipeline. 

 

5. The Vets: Sedins are getting worse, Hank won't shoot at open nets, Sutter has looked decent but not the foundational type that Benning crowned to him. Dorsett has shown leadership but he is just not very good. 

 

So what do we do CDC? Lets have a real discussion instead of all the "sky is falling" crap. If you truly think this team could fight for the playoffs, I would like to hear why. I would also particularly like to hear your opinions of Gaunce. 

 

 

Gaunce may not look impressive thus far, but I'm not sure what people expect of a rookie in his first month in the NHL.

 

51.6% in the faceoff circle - that is very impressive considering the next statistic.

15.7% offensive zone starts and 41.3% defensive (where it's harder to win a draw).

50.4% corsi - very impressive imo considering the context he's playing in.

 

I think he hasn't looked flashy, hasn't generated grade A scoring chances, hasn't been terribly noticeable - but considering his role not being noticed can actually be seen as a real positive.  I think he's been quite solid and has something to build on.

[oldnews]

4 hours ago, SaintPatrick33 said:

 

Ahem, I do believe Toronto won the draft lottery, they also won the Babcock sweepstakes, they also won 2 former league officials in Shanahan and Lou. Thats a lot of winning right there man

Not sure if I'd call that "winning",  but it does bring the Babcock quote to mind:

 

"It's reviewable but we have good people at the League & they'll look after that. It won't be a problem."

 

 

[SaintPatrick33]

7 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Not sure if I'd call that "winning",  but it does bring the Babcock quote to mind:

 

"It's reviewable but we have good people at the League & they'll look after that. It won't be a problem."

 

 

 

Well much like the 2011 final where the Bruins had Campbell on their side, and all of a sudden the leafs get Shanny and Lamorello and boom they win the lottery.....not saying anything but the Leafs are the most valuable franchise in the NHL.....Money talks, and it also makes decisions which can decide cup finals. Watching Raymond laying on the Ice like that was a Fing Joke, Boston played some of the dirtiest hockey not seen since the 70's and no suspensions or penalty calls on some blatant fouls. 

 

Just stating that sometimes it pays to hire league shills, instead we keep getting F'ed. 

[Phat Fingers]

14 hours ago, alfstonker said:

 

He might be the solution in 2 years, in fact I think he would.

 

In the meantime no one is going to get this team to the playoffs if we can't convert our NUMEROUS chances. And if we can, most of us would not be having this conversation. This is a player problem, a timeline replacement problem, that had its roots in the last 4 seasons of Gillis's management. 

 

We have to get 20 promising players channeled through Utica, at present we maybe have 6-8 in the pipeline. In two years we will be up at about 12 and in 3 years hopefully 18-20. If JB has done his job we will get 6-8 who will boost this team up the league.

 

Why anyone expects it to happen any other way defeats me. Every successful team in the league has taken 5-8 years to build a contender.

 

 

^^^^ A plus Stonker. 

 

You are becong the voice of reason on the CDC.  Unfortunately most here are not reasonable. 

 

Great post and we are building momentum after having lost it. It is much easier to keep than to get. JB has his work cut out for him, but I as fan do approve. If this season is a demonstration, it is one of his well JB is at acquiring talent. Virtannen aside, (still lots of time for him to show his worth. Trolls be damned) Stecher, Trymakin and Gudbranson are going to be key pieces of our defence moving forward. Granlund looks great, Sutter is improving after a lost season. Baer needs to get some confidence and should be a healthy scratch.  

 

Our prospects are looking really good.  Next year will be his first year to really have his picks in our system by standard timelines. He has already exceeded that benchmark and has drafted more talent than the previous two GM's did in over ten years. 

 

My only critical view of JB is his coach. WD is not a guy I have any confidence in. Horvat was his 4th line center, Dorsett is a top six guy????   

 

EW

[k_man08]

14 hours ago, EmilyM said:

What would a proper rebuild mean to you?
Sedins aren't likely going anywhere.
The remaining vets aren't valuable trade assets right now. We are probably getting marginal draft picks at best for many of our vets. If (that's a big "if") other teams even want them.
Goalie market is weak. Miller won't go for much. Burrows won't go for much. Hansen might net something decent, but don't expect a roster changing return for him.
Tanev may be the only asset we have that'd net a significant return.
And let's say we do unload all our vets. Who takes their place? Our pool of prospects is actually pretty shallow. We have next to nothing in Utica. Players like Labate, Zalewski? They are marginal roster players at best. Nothing that will change the outlook of our team going forward.
So what does a proper rebuild mean to you? What are realistic things we can do? Not trying to be rhetorical. I really want to hear answers because a lot of people want to go younger and unload vets, but what dos that actually mean with realistic examples of moves we could make?

Well i realize you want answers but its not easy to do a fix that took years to mess up.

We had no need to trade for players that fill the gap between our 30 something and prospects. We could have let our prospects grow in the AHL, while signing FAs to 1 year deals and then trading them away at deadline. we don't have that luxury anymore because we've filled our roster with sub-par prospects that have a future potential of 3rd line on a good team.

 

Here's who i think can fill roster spots this year:

 

Zalewski, Michael

Cassels, Cole

Labate, Joseph

Pedan, Andrey

Grenier, Alexandre

Bachman, Richard

 

 

I would trade Miller for picks call up Bachman

Trade burrows and call up Zalewski

Trade Skille for picks when Rodin returns

Trade away larsen for picks and call up Pedan

This fills the holes for us at forward, D and G positions and allows us to ice a full line while gathering any set of picks we can get our hands on.

 

Let Benning draft well and fill the cupboards for one more year. If we're close to bottom 5 in the NHL, then even better as we'll get one more NHL ready piece. Let Virtanen continue to play in AHL for the remainder of the year.

 

In expansion draft, protect anyone we consider to be our best player at the time. We should not have much to worry about at the time because most of our exposed players would not be very desirable to LV.

 

After that, follow the leafs model of signing NHL talented players to 1 year deals to only flip them for picks at deadline. Keep our prospects at AHL and allow them to play together and gel so when they play in NHL they have somewhat of a chemistry. By the end of next season our cupboards should be fuller and Sedins should be ready for retirement. Loui should be traded away for picks and our roster should be filled with NHL ready players that we've developed so far,

 

 

[spook007]

17 hours ago, CeeBee51 said:

Not to sidetrack things but every coach is or was a rookie. Some were good, some were not so good. Some went on to be great, some not.   I get that a lot of posters can't stand Willie. I'm not a fan of or not a fan of Willie.  Maybe we would do better with a new coach, maybe not. Willie really isn't the problem though and he isn't the solution. By the time we are good again Willie will be happily retired and we may be on a 2nd or 3rd Coach After Willie. No matter how many draft picks we accumulate this will take time. A lot of time. Problem is people who want to tank don't have the patience for it.... Witness many of the comments in the Virtanen threads. Kids don't even get 2 years anymore.  I dunno, maybe we don't deserve a team any more.

So true.... +1

[ice orca]

14 minutes ago, k_man08 said:

Well i realize you want answers but its not easy to do a fix that took years to mess up.

We had no need to trade for players that fill the gap between our 30 something and prospects. We could have let our prospects grow in the AHL, while signing FAs to 1 year deals and then trading them away at deadline. we don't have that luxury anymore because we've filled our roster with sub-par prospects that have a future potential of 3rd line on a good team.

 

Here's who i think can fill roster spots this year:

 

Zalewski, Michael

Cassels, Cole

Labate, Joseph

Pedan, Andrey

Grenier, Alexandre

Bachman, Richard

 

 

I would trade Miller for picks call up Bachman

Trade burrows and call up Zalewski

Trade Skille for picks when Rodin returns

Trade away larsen for picks and call up Pedan

This fills the holes for us at forward, D and G positions and allows us to ice a full line while gathering any set of picks we can get our hands on.

 

Let Benning draft well and fill the cupboards for one more year. If we're close to bottom 5 in the NHL, then even better as we'll get one more NHL ready piece. Let Virtanen continue to play in AHL for the remainder of the year.

 

In expansion draft, protect anyone we consider to be our best player at the time. We should not have much to worry about at the time because most of our exposed players would not be very desirable to LV.

 

After that, follow the leafs model of signing NHL talented players to 1 year deals to only flip them for picks at deadline. Keep our prospects at AHL and allow them to play together and gel so when they play in NHL they have somewhat of a chemistry. By the end of next season our cupboards should be fuller and Sedins should be ready for retirement. Loui should be traded away for picks and our roster should be filled with NHL ready players that we've developed so far,

 

 

Picks for Skille and Larson? really. Skille was a pto and Larson was a trade for a 5th. There is no 8th or 9th round in the draft.

[k_man08]

1 hour ago, ice orca said:

Picks for Skille and Larson? really. Skille was a pto and Larson was a trade for a 5th. There is no 8th or 9th round in the draft.

 

I love how CDC over values some players and under values others.

Larsen is still a young player who would do okay in 6/7 role on a good team.

Skille would be good for a team looking for grit as a 12/13th forward.

 

I think they're worth a mid-low round picks and we can perhaps translate them into better prospects, or space for more deserving players from AHL.

[alfstonker]

4 hours ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

 

 

^^^^ A plus Stonker. 

 

You are becong the voice of reason on the CDC.  Unfortunately most here are not reasonable. 

 

Great post and we are building momentum after having lost it. It is much easier to keep than to get. JB has his work cut out for him, but I as fan do approve. If this season is a demonstration, it is one of his well JB is at acquiring talent. Virtannen aside, (still lots of time for him to show his worth. Trolls be damned) Stecher, Trymakin and Gudbranson are going to be key pieces of our defence moving forward. Granlund looks great, Sutter is improving after a lost season. Baer needs to get some confidence and should be a healthy scratch.  

 

Our prospects are looking really good.  Next year will be his first year to really have his picks in our system by standard timelines. He has already exceeded that benchmark and has drafted more talent than the previous two GM's did in over ten years. 

 

My only critical view of JB is his coach. WD is not a guy I have any confidence in. Horvat was his 4th line center, Dorsett is a top six guy????   

 

EW

 

Imo we take line placings too literally. How many games did Bo play on the 4th? Now go look at how many games he played on the 2nd last season.

 

Also a hell of a lot of people underestimate Dorsett just because he fights. He has a lot of speed, great compete and knows how to play in his line mates, we are not talking about a plug here. Hornet was great last night and playing 19mins.

 

I also liked Chaput and maybe Jake should watch what he did with 9mins. or Skille with 11+mins. These guys compete and sadly they are outperforming Gaunce, who tries hard every shift but looks like he needs a rest.

[bloodycanuckleheads]

Quote

We have decent prospects

 

Go take a quick look at Utica's line-up and say that again!...