ForsbergTheGreat Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 2 hours ago, J.R. said: But they weren't/aren't 'done'. IMO, they needed another 1-2 years of being a bottom 15 team and continuing to build. Then they'd have had the depth to acquire the pieces they needed. They were doing relatively well with their version of a rebuild plan and than they lotto'd Mathews, did better than they thought this year and got all excited and got ahead of themselves. How do you think being a bubble team makes takes them out of the rebuild? Rebuilding is about drafting a developing a core, the whole argument is that rebuilding teams need to hoard and draft high to be successful... how is a couple 15th overall picks considered developing the core they already have. 2 hours ago, J.R. said: Top pair D is a pretty important part of your 'core' not to have.... Stars don't have a top pair LHD are they rebuilding? MTL doesn't have a top line center, are they rebuilding? OT doesn't have a top pairing LHD, are they rebuilding? All important pieces, 90% of teams have a position they need filled, that doesn't mean they are still rebuilding. That's just non sense to think that. It's not like they don't have a top pairing D at all, they have two top pairing D in Reilly and Gardiner. Having a RHD isn't the difference between contending and not contending. When they already have that foundation, finding those last pieces are not part of the rebuilding phase. Hawks signed Hossa in 2009, did that mean the hawks were still rebuilding in 2008 despite making the conference finals the year before... Seriously, Are you and the old guy really saying having a hole in your line up means you are rebuilding? Then 90% of the teams in the NHL are rebuilding....And the funniest thing is Mr.Old said leafs could trade picks to fill that hole over the next two years. But IF they are trading picks, are they still rebuilding... Do rebuilding teams trade away draft picks? No they don't, so if they are trading picks clearly the rebuild is over. GAME SET AND MATCH.... 2 hours ago, J.R. said: The difference between franchises is that the Leafs have been rebuilding twice as long as we have. They should damn wel be ahead. Yes they should be and they are, so why does people try to compare a move like Boyle and anderson trade to any of the moves that canucks make. We are in different stats, Leafs are ahead and can afford to move picks. Canucks are just starting and can't...Not that hard of logic to follow. 2 hours ago, J.R. said: So you're thinking is that Bracco or Kapanen etc are going to get TOR a developed, 22-25'ish year old, top pair, RH'd D? When did i say that? Don't be stupid, we both know I never even hinted at that. They are great add on to a package those. 2 hours ago, J.R. said: I think we're done here. Hamilton was traded 15th overall and 2 second round picks. I'll say this again., LEAFS HAVE 17 PICKS IN THE NEXT TWO DRAFTS.....5 in the first two rounds......But no leafs are still rebuilding because they have 1 hole in their line up... Rebuilding is all about finding that new core to lead you to success. Once you find that core it's not longer about drafting, it on to phase two, get assets to support those core players, Hawks did it with Ladd, and Hossa, Penguins did it with Kunitz (in 2007 the penguins traded away 5 picks to support their core), Kings did it with Richard and Carter, OIlers did it with Larsson and Lucic, Even canucks did it with Sundin, Ehrhoff, and Hamhuis, These are all moves teams make to help support their core to bring playoff success (push their core over the top), not moves rebuilding teams do..leafs are in the phase today... The only way you can believe the leafs are still rebuilding is if you think that should be hoarding, drafting and not trading any of their picks. If you believe leafs should take two more years of developing and drafting players before trading some assets to fill holes, then you have the right to belief they are still rebuilding. But we all know that's not what state the leafs are currently in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 52 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Stars don't have a top pair LHD are they rebuilding? MTL doesn't have a top line center, are they rebuilding? OT doesn't have a top pairing LHD, are they rebuilding? All important pieces, 90% of teams have a position they need filled, that doesn't mean they are still rebuilding. How many of these teams were in the middle of a self described full, tanking rebuild with, and I quote: 'pain'? They abandoned their incomplete plan while still missing some pretty key pieces. If they don't actually want to build a sustainable contender, they're on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 9 minutes ago, J.R. said: How many of these teams were in the middle of a self described full, tanking rebuild with, and I quote: 'pain'? The rebuild ended when they landed a generational talent, Same with the oilers.. When you land a superstar talent, the rebuild speeds up. Hawks after toews 2 years later in the conference finals, Pens 3 season after crosby SCF. If we land Dahlin, guess what rebuild over, time to start building around those pieces. 9 minutes ago, J.R. said: They abandoned their incomplete plan while still missing some pretty key pieces. If they don't actually want to build a sustainable contender, they're on the right track. So again do you think the leafs need to still have pain in order to complete the rebuild? NO they have passed phase one, now it's time for phase to find fill the holes and find supporting players....That's where the leafs are. Rebuilds are about hoarding picks, drafting and developing young players....Not trading assets for positional needs. Do you really think the oilers trading Hall was a "Rebuilding" move? was the hawks trading ruutu a rebuilding move...No....The leafs are in the exact same position as the stars currently are.....trying to deny that is again just non sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 9 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: The rebuild ended when they landed a generational talent, Same with the oilers.. When you land a superstar talent, the rebuild speeds up. Hawks after toews 2 years later in the conference finals, Pens 3 season after crosby SCF. If we land Dahlin, guess what rebuild over, time to start building around those pieces. So again do you think the leafs need to still have pain in order to complete the rebuild? NO they have passed phase one, now it's time for phase to find fill the holes and find supporting players....That's where the leafs are. Rebuilds are about hoarding picks, drafting and developing young players....Not trading assets for positional needs. Do you really think the oilers trading Hall was a "Rebuilding" move? was the hawks trading ruutu a rebuilding move...No....The leafs are in the exact same position as the stars currently are.....trying to deny that is again just non sense. Oilers also acquired Larsson with their forward depth (among other moves). Again, we're back to moving Nylander/Marner for the D they'll require to be a legit contender. Like ON, I've had enough fun going around in circles with you on this. Carry on chasing your tail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 1 hour ago, J.R. said: Oilers also acquired Larsson with their forward depth (among other moves). Again, we're back to moving Nylander/Marner for the D they'll require to be a legit contender. Like ON, I've had enough fun going around in circles with you on this. Carry on chasing your tail. Was larssen considered a rebuilding move...NO....hence if that's where the Leafs are at they are no longer rebuilding..... Use some brain cells it's really not that hard to figure out... Again this is why you are ON pet, you are his lap dog, anything he says you nod your head and follow. have you ever disagreed on anything? all ON does is follow along with blind love for mgmt...at one point he's argue to death with how people are wrong for wanted WD fired but as soon as it happens he was on board with the green hiring.. and you are right behind him soaking up everything he states.. Try thinking for yourself for once, you're actually a pretty smart poster when you do.... It's really not that hard to see that leafs are past the rebuilding state.....Trading for a D using young assets = non rebuilding move = no longer rebuilding.....If they were still rebuilding they would be trying to draft a top pairing D with a high draft pick.... Rebuilding move vs non rebuilding moves....two different franchise states, canucks are in one, leafs are in another.... I'm done with trying to explain what a rebuild is too...I'll end with, do you really think it would take Marner or Nylander to land Tanev, or could tanev be had with less? What about Trouba? what about Montour? If all leafs need is a potential top pairing RHD to be considered contending, wouldn't you say they are no longer rebuilding..... or do team typically go from rebuilding to contending over night? So in summary you and the old guy think leafs are rebuilding because they have a need for a RHD and because over two years ago babcock said they are rebuilding will experience some pain......good one...way to use facts on that one.. The move that leafs have made suggest they are past rebuilding.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 On 5/16/2017 at 7:13 PM, granpappy said: listen dick. acquillini was trying to bypass the draft to keep his team competitive. colossal fail Nah, a colossal fail is forgetting to take your prune juice before heading to the crapper there, gramps. ...oh, and making absurd claims with zero evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 In the cap era you cannot afford to wait to fill every single hole you have with a player appropriate for that position. The Hawks won their Cups while lacking a #2C, it was Toews and a bunch of fillers after that. Michal Handzus who was a 4C before the Hawks acquired him filled in as the Hawks #2C for the playoffs. Like Forsberg stated, when you have a generational talent on your roster, it can mask a lot of your shortcomings. Eventually though you have to pay your players what they are worth which is why it is simply not feasible in the cap era to build a perfect team. I am not saying its not possible, its just not something that should be your goal. With a 70M cap most teams are going to have a few holes in their lineup when they go into the playoffs. Considering the mediocrity that was the Atlantic division this year, any one of the Sens, Leafs (had they won their game against Columbus), Bruins, Canadiens or Rangers (WC1) could have been in the ECF right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 10 hours ago, Honky Cat said: Thats pretty much what the Blackhawks did...They had (and still do) Toews,Kane,Keith,Hossa as the core..and to a lesser degree Seabrook and Crawford..Everybody else is interchangeable/expendable...Some years they hit on a great combination of support players,some years they don't. The Leafs have Matthews,Nylander,Marner,Reilly,Andersson...pretty solid..but they are still a 1D (or a top first pairing Dman) away from being a legit contender..IMO. This is the problem with the idea that a rebuild is 'complete' once you acquire a 'core' of a few forwards like Matthews, Marner and Nylander. That nowhere near makes for a contending team - and the idea that Reilly and Gardiner can be put in a class with Keith and Seabrook is foolish imo. Sharp, Ladd, Byfuglien, Brouwer, Campbell, Versteeg, Hjalmarsson, Bolland.... The Chicago Blackhawks are not simply a core - and the fact that the salary cap forced them to make retool moves at regular intervals does not change the fact that they were an extremely deep, fully built hockey team - and has those assets to move, to retool with. Saad, Leddy, Sharp, Bickell, Bolland, Hjalmarsson, Frolik, Kruger, Shaw, Oduya.... Again, another Stanley Cup team loaded with players that are not simply 'expendable'. Guys like Sharp, Hjalmarsson were absolutely vital to all three of their Cups, while many of the names on those lists were part of two of their Cups. Saad, Sharp, Versteeg, Shaw, Hjalmarsson, Kruger, Oduya - again, pieces that were critical to their 3rd Cup. These are not teams with a few pieces and a bunch of expendibles - if it were that simple, there would have been a half a dozen or more Chicago BH in the NHL in recent years. To illustrate the point that it is extremely premature and short-sighted to be comparing the Leafs "core" to that of the Blackhawks, look at the other current young 'cores' the Leafs will have to compete with... McDavid, Draisaitl, Klefbom, Larsson, Nurse, Puljujaarvi, RNH.... a person would have to be nuts to take the Leafs 'core' over that one. Laine, Scheifele, Ehlers, Trouba, Morrissey, Connor.....Wheeler, Byfuglien, Little, Myers....(Petan, Roslovic, Dano, Armia).... hmmm, next Blackhawks as well? Eichel, Reinhart, Ristolainen, O'Reilly, Kane, Nylander.....(Okposo) - if it were just as simple as building a young 'core' of a handful of players..... Werenksi, Jones, Wennberg, Jenner, Bjorkstrand.....Saad, Atkinson, Dubinsky, Johnson, Savard, Foligno.....yet another 'next Blackhawks'? McKinnon, Duchene, Landeskog, Barrie, Johnson, Rantanen.....Yost.... hmmm, that's quite a 'core' - and yet, the last overall team in the NHL / lottery team. The Leafs aren't 'finished' rebuilding - their 'core' is really no better than that of a handful of other young teams - you could add a few more teams to those above....'Rebuilding' reduced to adding four or five core players is a perspective that doesn't realize what it actually takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Money Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 /\ This. Even if we hit a few homeruns with our young guys, we're still nowhere close to contending. We need an organization full of young guys who are either contributing, or useful as trade assets. The Leafs don't just have promising young talent on their roster - they have a number of guys in the system to be excited about. But they'll probably need to use those chips to find a #1D, because they're going to be too good to get a high enough pick to draft one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 7 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Was larssen considered a rebuilding move...NO....hence if that's where the Leafs are at they are no longer rebuilding..... Use some brain cells it's really not that hard to figure out... Again this is why you are ON pet, you are his lap dog, anything he says you nod your head and follow. have you ever disagreed on anything? all ON does is follow along with blind love for mgmt...at one point he's argue to death with how people are wrong for wanted WD fired but as soon as it happens he was on board with the green hiring.. and you are right behind him soaking up everything he states.. Try thinking for yourself for once, you're actually a pretty smart poster when you do.... It's really not that hard to see that leafs are past the rebuilding state.....Trading for a D using young assets = non rebuilding move = no longer rebuilding.....If they were still rebuilding they would be trying to draft a top pairing D with a high draft pick.... Rebuilding move vs non rebuilding moves....two different franchise states, canucks are in one, leafs are in another.... I'm done with trying to explain what a rebuild is too...I'll end with, do you really think it would take Marner or Nylander to land Tanev, or could tanev be had with less? What about Trouba? what about Montour? If all leafs need is a potential top pairing RHD to be considered contending, wouldn't you say they are no longer rebuilding..... or do team typically go from rebuilding to contending over night? So in summary you and the old guy think leafs are rebuilding because they have a need for a RHD and because over two years ago babcock said they are rebuilding will experience some pain......good one...way to use facts on that one.. The move that leafs have made suggest they are past rebuilding.. No, having the assets to spend to get Larsson without creating another hole elsewhere in their core was the rebuilding move. TOR liked to think they can skip that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 13 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Was larssen considered a rebuilding move...NO.... Uh, yes it was. It totally was. They moved on from all forwards to "REBUILD" around a more balanced line-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: Uh, yes it was. It totally was. They moved on from all forwards to "REBUILD" around a more balanced line-up. I don't know if you're being sarcastic. Larssen and Vrbata and Errikson and ... were not rebuilding moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Yup, very much so (sarcastic). Just having some fun on such an odd discussion. Who cares what they call it, what matters is the management team made decisions they felt would improve the on-ice product last year and the results were not there for a variety of reasons including injury AND simply lack of overall talent. Interesting thing though, without the injuries they could have potentially limped into the playoffs to get likely destroyed in first round. Would that and the corresponding draft pick have been better? Doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 18 minutes ago, Alflives said: I'm not sure you followed. The Larsson deal = Edmonton's Larsson - was a key rebuild move - by a team that hadn't made the playoffs in a decade despite multiple first overall picks. Dealing to add a top pairing defenseman was a vital rebuild move by Edmonton - one that took them from a group of shiny forwards to a semblance of a competitive team that is far more difficult to play against. They took a core piece - Hall - and converted him into a vital need - a 1RHD and when you added him to Klefbom - and then could follow that with Sekera, Nurse, Russell, Benning - they started to become a hockey team with a reasonably competitive blueline. Were they that before? No, but nevertheless they were adding guys like Sekera - ermagerd, was that a 'rebuild' move? He's a 30+ yr old? What were they thinkin'?!? Honestly - the discussion becomes literally stupid at the point that people are so attached to simplistic, reductive cookie-cutter concepts of what fits / what qualifies as a 'rebuild' move. Of course Larsson was. If we listen to some people around here - and some deluded Coil fans of the past - the Coil would have been 'done' their rebuild with RNH, Hall, Draisaitl, Eberle and Yakupov. Of course - a nice shiny 'core' of forwards with a blueliner or two does not make a contender - unless the point of 'rebuilding' is simply to have a shiny little core capable of one-and-dones, if they make the playoffs at all. In that case, yeah, Toronto is 'done' - as were the Coil, Avs, Panthers, Isles, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 43 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: Yup, very much so (sarcastic). Just having some fun on such an odd discussion. Who cares what they call it, what matters is the management team made decisions they felt would improve the on-ice product last year and the results were not there for a variety of reasons including injury AND simply lack of overall talent. Interesting thing though, without the injuries they could have potentially limped into the playoffs to get likely destroyed in first round. Would that and the corresponding draft pick have been better? Doubt it. That depends though RZ. Perhaps they would have landed in pergatory / mediocrity - according to CDC - and just missed the playoffs by a few spots.... And wound up with the 2nd or 3rd overall pick instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 1 minute ago, oldnews said: That depends though RZ. Perhaps they would have landed in pergatory / mediocrity - according to CDC - and just missed the playoffs by a few spots.... And wound up with the 2nd or 3rd overall pick instead. Yup, could have happened for sure (Philly). Key overall here is that what has happened did and what it is called doesn't matter. What matters is what they team does next. Past mistakes cannot be undone and good moves not made better - they are what they are and now the key is to make them all work as well as possible moving forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 On 2017-05-19 at 5:13 AM, oldnews said: This is the problem with the idea that a rebuild is 'complete' once you acquire a 'core' of a few forwards like Matthews, Marner and Nylander. That nowhere near makes for a contending team What a massive fail this is. Talk about a face palm. Just because a team isn't rebuilding doesn't automatically mean they are contending. You do realize there are other states a franchise can be in. leafs are in the same state as a team like the flames. Neither team is quite contending yet but both teams are past the rebuilding mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianRugby Posted May 20, 2017 Author Share Posted May 20, 2017 2 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: What a massive fail this is. Talk about a face palm. Just because a team isn't rebuilding doesn't automatically mean they are contending. You do realize there are other states a franchise can be in. leafs are in the same state as a team like the flames. Neither team is quite contending yet but both teams are past the rebuilding mode. J.R. thinks that it's "highly debatable" that the Leafs rebuild is much ahead of Vancouver's, and according to oldnews Kessel is still just a "coach-killing floater." So consider that when you try to win this argument using logic/reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 6 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Who wants to take a stab at this rebuild comparison now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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