Did Planned Tanking and Management Blow Up Work?

[Baggins]

33 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Will JB let us bottom out?  

I don't think there will be a choice if the Sedins retire after this contract. I don't have a crystal ball. It's not just drafting, it's trades as well. With our depth on D and more coming there should be some trades available. When will Juolevi be ready? Will Boeser be what's expected? If you only look at what's on the team we could well bottom out with the Sedins, Burrows and Miller out of the picture if young guys don't become what's expected. Either way I'm not nearly as worried as you are.

[Honky Cat]

7 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I posted this without correcting/editing.

 

The comparison with Edmonton and TO has to with that both management groups were blown up around the same time as Vancouver. Each group changed their strategy as far as building a team again, around the same time. Two groups were similar in their strategy but different than Vancouver's.

 

I guess I could have included Buffalo here as they were the first to openly state they were intentionally diving for McDavid, their plan hasn't translated as fast to marked improvement to date but their core is now one of the youngest and the team has surpassed the Nucks and has a very bright future, maybe they could use a new coach.

 

Rebuilding doesn't take 7 to 9 years, if smart decisions are made by management at the right time. NOW tanking is a crapshoot, no guarantees but still an opportunity to draft a more impactful player, if planned for at the right time. The next couple of drafts, 2017, 2018 and maybe even 2019 will not be as good as the last 3.

 

One way to gauge the effectiveness of management's plan is to look at the empty seats and listen to the fans attending games. The old Coliseum, during the mediocre days, was often called the mausoleum, the only time it was noisy was when TO or Montreal came to town and the few years the Nucks were significant in the standings. Lately you can hear conversations during games as people talk across empty seats.

 

The NHL game has changed since Bettman took over and so has junior hockey, top junior players are exposed to several top level tournaments prior to being in the NHL, if players drafted now, apart from some defencemen, can't make the show immediately coming out of college or minor hockey, then they aren't players to build a core around.

Calgary and Vancouver? In three years the core of Calgary will be coming into their prime, Vancouver's will be....who knows, not the Sedins and certainly not Eriksson. It is sad to think that fans in this market have lowered their hopes to the point that Baertschi is considered a top six core player, Raymond was never considered a core player and he scored more points than Baertschi every year.

 

Their success comes from the decisions when the new management was installed for TO two years ago, prior to that both Edmonton and TO tried to re-tool for a decade. Just like the Nucks have done/are doing for the last three years now, that leaves only 7 more if you want to get to a decade and one playoff appearance in 12 years and three playoff games won in 16 years.

 

What does the new GM usually do? They hire their own coach right off, Gillis didn't and that was rare. Gillis didn't even fire most of the staff. Now Linden came in and cleaned house, most of those he let go have been snatched up and are reaping success for other teams or the league they were that good. Installed were old cronies, Medicine Hat alumni and old coaches, I think the trainers are still there, I'm not sure, but this management group sure has a lot of similarities to what Edmonton had for those dismal years, even the point totals are starting to look the same.

 

Talents like McDavid, Eichel, Mathews, Laine or even Puljujarvi don't come along every day, players like Hall, Sequin, Thorton, Landeskog or Gretzky aren't traded every day and that is why this team that needs players similar to this so badly can and should put the petal to the metal to try to be in the conversation for any player of this calibre, regardless of the cost of players that can evidently be more easily nurtured or drafted.

In three years Calgary will be coming into their prime?..quite the bold statement..How many years were we saying that about the Oilers..?..Who will be Calgarys goalie in three years..?..How old will Mark Gio be in three years..?..What will there D look like...Will Sam Bennett ever be the player he was cracked up to be?

 

If you haven't noticed already..Horvat and Baertschi are already starting to eclipse the Sedins in scoring..Do you know who Brock Boeser is?

[TheGuardian_]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

 

i always seriously doubt your knowledge, but to say the Coliseum was quiet?  I'm not sure if you actually attended games there or not, but I went to  lot of games and it was a very nasty, very volatile rink for opposing teams to play in.

You are showing your youth, that's cool, but there were the days of not making the playoffs year after year, failing at trades, drafting players that played better for other teams after being traded, coaches that wouldn't play the young guys (Neely) because he was more concerned with keeping his job.

Vancouver was also known as the goalie graveyard.

[Phat Fingers]

Anyway we can merge this thread with the Guardians epic thread on how JB lost the plot when he traded Shinkaruk for Granlund. Pure gold Guardian, pure comic gold. 

 

EW  

[TheGuardian_]

40 minutes ago, Honky Cat said:

In three years Calgary will be coming into their prime?..quite the bold statement..How many years were we saying that about the Oilers..?..Who will be Calgarys goalie in three years..?..How old will Mark Gio be in three years..?..What will there D look like...Will Sam Bennett ever be the player he was cracked up to be?

 

If you haven't noticed already..Horvat and Baertschi are already starting to eclipse the Sedins in scoring..Do you know who Brock Boeser is?

Bo and Sven eclipsing the 36 year old Sedins and on this team. This is not a video game, age makes a difference, that the Sedins are still considered the top players on this team is a testimont to their skill and physicality. But then this team is 25th in league scoring, so not a huge item. Eventually the Sedins will stop playing then who is behind Horvat etal? Two years maybe. The team has players almost as good as 36 year old players?

How much is Boeser signed for? What's his term? How is Virtanen doing? How about Demko? OJ doesn't seem to be on the top four on his team anymore, who is he bumping? Gubranson, Tanev, Hutton, Edler or even Stecher to Tryamkin?

 

Sam Bennett, not a top line forward on that team, see what the next few drafts will offer? Bennett is a good example. In 3 years Gio will be not quite as old as the Sedins, but then it won't be necessary for him to be a top two defence man either, maybe not even a top four guy, they have depth to replace him. Can't say that abut Vancouver and the Sedins.

22 minutes ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said:

Anyway we can merge this thread with the Guardians epic thread on how JB lost the plot when he traded Shinkaruk for Granlund. Pure gold Guardian, pure comic gold. 

 

EW  

So easily entertained, simple things for ......lets wait the same number of years you prefer the fans to wait for improvement, 4 or 5 eh?

 

[stawns]

4 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Bo and Sven eclipsing the 36 year old Sedins and on this team. This is not a video game, age makes a difference, that the Sedins are still considered the top players on this team is a testimont to their skill and physicality. But then this team is 25th in league scoring, so not a huge item. Eventually the Sedins will stop playing then who is behind Horvat etal? Two years maybe. The team has players almost as good as 36 year old players?

How much is Boeser signed for? What's his term? How is Virtanen doing? How about Demko? OJ doesn't seem to be on the top four on his team anymore, who is he bumping? Gubranson, Tanev, Hutton, Edler or even Stecher to Tryamkin?

 

Sam Bennett, not a top line forward on that team, see what the next few drafts will offer? Bennett is a good example. In 3 years Gio will be not quite as old as the Sedins, but then it won't be necessary for him to be a top two defence man either, maybe not even a top four guy, they have depth to replace him. Can't say that abut Vancouver and the Sedins.

So easily entertained, simple things for ......lets wait the same number of years you prefer the fans to wait for improvement, 4 or 5 eh?

 

what is it that you think a rebuild looks like?  Of course it's going to be a cpl years, at least the canucks haven't had a decade of utter futility in every aspect of the org, like Calgary (to an extent), Edm and TO, yet we are still in the same ballpark as they are in the youth movement.......the difference is that Edm and To won the lottery.  You need to not look at fwds when comparing the Canucks and start looking at defense and goaltending........in that context, the Nucks are far ahead in the rebuild.

[TheGuardian_]

20 minutes ago, stawns said:

what is it that you think a rebuild looks like?  Of course it's going to be a cpl years, at least the canucks haven't had a decade of utter futility in every aspect of the org, like Calgary (to an extent), Edm and TO, yet we are still in the same ballpark as they are in the youth movement.......the difference is that Edm and To won the lottery.  You need to not look at fwds when comparing the Canucks and start looking at defense and goaltending........in that context, the Nucks are far ahead in the rebuild.

No they haven't their decade yet, under Gillis they were a power house. Still if 3 playoffs games won in the last 6 years is a measure of success for you, this isn't horse shoes or hand grenades, being close doesn't count as much a management wants/would like the fans to believe.

Improvement is usually measured in being better than other teams or even year to year.

 

Plan for improvement are important, what does Linden want, everyone to pay high cost for tickets to watch to superb players deteriorate until some player finally passes them in scoring, if he waits long enough he might even get 3 players, certainly if they decide to retire instead of reupping at the end of their contracts. What then, still unfair to them to start what he stated he knows from the day he was hired, rebuild?

 

No disrespect to Horvat but he isn't close to McDavid, Edmonton likely has three players he isn't close to certainly Sven can't be compared to anyone on their roster

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, TheGuardian_ said:

No they haven't their decade yet, under Gillis they were a power house. Still if 3 playoffs games won in the last 6 years is a measure of success for you, this isn't horse shoes or hand grenades, being close doesn't count as much a management wants/would like the fans to believe.

Improvement is usually measured in being better than other teams or even year to year.

 

Plan for improvement are important, what does Linden want, everyone to pay high cost for tickets to watch to superb players deteriorate until some player finally passes them in scoring, if he waits long enough he might even get 3 players, certainly if they decide to retire instead of reupping at the end of their contracts. What then, still unfair to them to start what he stated he knows from the day he was hired, rebuild?

I'm saving my pluses for you, because your posts make sense.  Keep up the EXCELLENT posting.

[stawns]

Just now, TheGuardian_ said:

No they haven't their decade yet, under Gillis they were a power house. Still if 3 playoffs games won in the last 6 years is a measure of success for you, this isn't horse shoes or hand grenades, being close doesn't count as much a management wants/would like the fans to believe.

Improvement is usually measured in being better than other teams or even year to year.

 

Plan for improvement are important, what does Linden want, everyone to pay high cost for tickets to watch to superb players deteriorate until some player finally passes them in scoring, if he waits long enough he might even get 3 players, certainly if they decide to retire instead of reupping at the end of their contracts. What then, still unfair to them to start what he stated he knows from the day he was hired, rebuild?

I would say this is as affordable as tix have been since they moved over to GM place, relative to inflation.  They have 9 players on their everyday lineup right now, who are 24 or under and 4 pretty certain additions coming in the next year, maybe 2.  They're completely set in goal and have a shockingly deep d corp..........how is the rebuild not in full motion and trending forward?

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

I would say this is as affordable as tix have been since they moved over to GM place, relative to inflation.  They have 9 players on their everyday lineup right now, who are 24 or under and 4 pretty certain additions coming in the next year, maybe 2.  They're completely set in goal and have a shockingly deep d corp..........how is the rebuild not in full motion and trending forward?

Yes, we are getting younger players.  Are these younger players going to compete with other rebuilding teams' emerging core groups?  That's the question.  

[By sea and land]

Try to win.

 

Try to make playoffs.

 

If you miss playoffs, select best player available.

 

Develop well.

 

Repeat cycle!

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, By sea and land said:

Try to win.

 

Try to make playoffs.

 

If you miss playoffs, select best player available.

 

Develop well.

 

Repeat cycle!

And be mediocre?

[Baggins]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Yes, we are getting younger players.  Are these younger players going to compete with other rebuilding teams' emerging core groups?  That's the question.  

Well if we get to where Calgary, Edmonton, and Toronto currently are in 7 more years we'll have done as good a job of rebuilding as they have. I'm optimistic we'll get where they currently are in less time than that.

[By sea and land]

 Preferably not. Since the arrival of Jim Benning I'm fully completely behind him with his draft picks. I don't think we ever could say that before as a Canuck supporter when it came to drafting.

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Same boat, having to admit that TO has a future.

Begrudgingly so...I actually hope they don't mess it up this time.

[189lb enforcers?]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Begrudgingly so...I actually hope they don't mess it up this time.

Some great young kids on that roster that you can't help but cheer on. 

[189lb enforcers?]

2 hours ago, stawns said:

 

i always seriously doubt your knowledge, but to say the Coliseum was quiet?  I'm not sure if you actually attended games there or not, but I went to  lot of games and it was a very nasty, very volatile rink for opposing teams to play in.

Rugged old Canucks teams gave the place something to cheer for too.

[IBatch]

40 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Well if we get to where Calgary, Edmonton, and Toronto currently are in 7 more years we'll have done as good a job of rebuilding as they have. I'm optimistic we'll get where they currently are in less time than that.

That would be an honest way to compare the teams.  It would be great if in the next three years or so we could draft two or three stars.  We have time.  The rebuild is just getting started and should amp up once the Sedins retire or if a contender takes a chance on them (with is possibly retaining salary).  To me 2018 off season will be pivotal for this club and if Juolevi and or Boesser exceed expectations.

[Honky Cat]

45 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Bo and Sven eclipsing the 36 year old Sedins and on this team. This is not a video game, age makes a difference, that the Sedins are still considered the top players on this team is a testimont to their skill and physicality. But then this team is 25th in league scoring, so not a huge item. Eventually the Sedins will stop playing then who is behind Horvat etal? Two years maybe. The team has players almost as good as 36 year old players?

How much is Boeser signed for? What's his term? How is Virtanen doing? How about Demko? OJ doesn't seem to be on the top four on his team anymore, who is he bumping? Gubranson, Tanev, Hutton, Edler or even Stecher to Tryamkin?

 

Sam Bennett, not a top line forward on that team, see what the next few drafts will offer? Bennett is a good example. In 3 years Gio will be not quite as old as the Sedins, but then it won't be necessary for him to be a top two defence man either, maybe not even a top four guy, they have depth to replace him. Can't say that abut Vancouver and the Sedins.

So easily entertained, simple things for ......lets wait the same number of years you prefer the fans to wait for improvement, 4 or 5 eh?

 

In 3 years,Gio will be 36,..Who is there in the Flames org to replace the Norris trophy candidate?....Who is their #1 goaltender going to be..?....I don't care how amazing your forwards are..No D, and no goaltending... means you're not going far..simple as that.

 

The Canucks will have to find a 1C...(replacing the Sedins won't happen,that's an anomaly),but even if they get another player of Horvats level,that will be pretty good moving forward.

 

The Flames have been rebuilding (sucking) a lot longer than we have,and so they should have a better prospect pool (and they do.. but don't forget that we didn't even have one three years ago),...and as much as we have to replace the Sedins,the Flames have to fill big question marks on D,and in goal (still).

 

The Flames were supposed to break out last year..were they not? (they collapsed and were in the running with us for 28th overall,until the last game of the season)..Besides Tkachuk and Gully,,what significant moves has GM Treliving made that makes you think in 3 years they're going to break out?.....Its basically the same group,with the same problems.

 

 

[189lb enforcers?]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

I would say this is as affordable as tix have been since they moved over to GM place, relative to inflation.  They have 9 players on their everyday lineup right now, who are 24 or under and 4 pretty certain additions coming in the next year, maybe 2.  They're completely set in goal and have a shockingly deep d corp..........how is the rebuild not in full motion and trending forward?

A rebuild means you're building something. The Canucks are in a reactive stage hoping to plug holes left from expiring contracts, hardly a purposeful restocking. More like surviving. Your optimism is always welcome here. 

 

How many of those 9 players are core pieces?

How many are impact players? Is this set to change? 

 

Set in goal? I'm sssuming you mean you HOPE Demko makes them set in goal. From what I've seen this year, he is no Corey Schneider, keeping crap teams alive. They might have something, but it's not trending forward as of today, unless Marky is your stud goalie, a very average goalie, at best. These audition pieces, outside of Boeser are not world-beaters, so insulating the one-man Core, Horvat, is sketchy, at best. 

 

A deep, but terribly unremarkable D, hinging on a 4th, and counting, smallish, soft Olli to push them into respectability.