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Did Planned Tanking and Management Blow Up Work?


TheGuardian_

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13 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

What's really amazing is how clueless you are.

I'm not the clueless one....

 

9:00 AM PST, Wed May 27, 2015

So far, at least publicly, Trevor Linden and Jim Benning have been clear that they want to rebuild on the fly. The team wants to win now while adding young players along the way.

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/05/canucks-offseason-thoughts-time-rebuild/

 

 

Do you need a personal note from them that we're rebuilding?

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1 hour ago, Baggins said:

I'm not the clueless one....

 

9:00 AM PST, Wed May 27, 2015

So far, at least publicly, Trevor Linden and Jim Benning have been clear that they want to rebuild on the fly. The team wants to win now while adding young players along the way.

http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2015/05/canucks-offseason-thoughts-time-rebuild/

 

 

Do you need a personal note from them that we're rebuilding?

Haha, still in the dark are you. At least Appleboy clued in.  I have never claimed or denied that canucks aren't rebuilding...I have actually said, they started their rebuild in 2013.  I just said canucks have never came out and admitted they are going into rebuild mode..  hopefully the light bulb will kick in sooner or later.  . 

 

Good job on quoting someone else making that statement...thumbs up.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Haha, still in the dark are you. At least Appleboy clued in.  I have never claimed or denied that canucks aren't rebuilding...I have actually said, they started their rebuild in 2013.  I just said canucks have never came out and admitted they are going into rebuild mode..  hopefully the light bulb will kick in sooner or later.  . 

 

Good job on quoting someone else making that statement...thumbs up.

 

 

 

You're not cluing in. That article confirms that they have. You know, that key word in there - "publicly". Right at the begining they came out and said they were rebuilding on the fly. They've also said several times since their plan hasn't changed. Seems the majority know they said it.

 

It is from a valid news source.

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21 hours ago, Honky Cat said:

Tallon drafted 3rd overall in his first year (Cam Barker),and 6th overall the following year (Jack Skille)....Tanking or finishing close to last did not make any difference to the team (luckily he got quite a few good players in the later rounds,beauty don't have suck to do that)...

 

It wasn't even a 'tank'..they were just a very lousy team that no one cared about (like the Coyotes)..not even in Chicago..where they were lucky to draw 5K in the United Centre.

What?  Kane 1st overall.  Toews 3rd overall. 

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Just now, CanadianRugby said:

What?  Kane 1st overall.  Toews 3rd overall. 

The part you're missing is that it wasn't tanking...In fact.maybe it was Tallons ineptitude (by whiffing on his first two top ten picks,and signing 3 vets to brutal deals) that landed Toews and Kane...If you think that it was a pre meditated plan by Chicago management ..you're wrong.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Baggins said:

You're not cluing in. That article confirms that they have. You know, that key word in there - "publicly". Right at the begining they came out and said they were rebuilding on the fly. They've also said several times since their plan hasn't changed. Seems the majority know they said it.

 

It is from a valid news source.

Good source.

You went from "how many times do they have to say it...." to i've found a source that said they claims it, but still can't find an actual quote from the team....Must be satisfying.... And all of this stemmed from you not being able to read properly, and thinking I was saying Canucks weren't rebuilding..

 

Since you're struggling so much, i'll help you out.

 

"Our goal is to develop young players in a winning environment, to make the playoffs, and ultimately we want to compete and win the Stanley Cup," Benning told reporters, articulating his parallel – arguably contradictory – goals.

"What we’re trying to do is we’re trying to add core prospects ‘on the fly’, as you’d say," Benning continued. "We have a good team, but we want to develop those young players in a winning environment.

"You can have a lot of good young players, but if they don’t learn and understand what it takes to win and (if) they (don’t) have older players showing them the right way to play and how to win, you end up with a team full of real good players that never wins anything."

 

 

This was a quote right after canucks had a successful season and made the post season, not exactly since he was hired.  If you want a direct JB interview..

 

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/vancouver-canucks-officially-introduce-jim-benning-as-teams-new-general-manager

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Good source.

You went from "how many times do they have to say it...." to i've found a source that said they claims it, but still can't find an actual quote from the team....Must be satisfying.... And all of this stemmed from you not being able to read properly, and thinking I was saying Canucks weren't rebuilding..

 

Since you're struggling so much, i'll help you out.

 

"Our goal is to develop young players in a winning environment, to make the playoffs, and ultimately we want to compete and win the Stanley Cup," Benning told reporters, articulating his parallel – arguably contradictory – goals.

"What we’re trying to do is we’re trying to add core prospects ‘on the fly’, as you’d say," Benning continued. "We have a good team, but we want to develop those young players in a winning environment.

"You can have a lot of good young players, but if they don’t learn and understand what it takes to win and (if) they (don’t) have older players showing them the right way to play and how to win, you end up with a team full of real good players that never wins anything."

 

 

This was a quote right after canucks had a successful season and made the post season.

From Vancouver sun 2015

Canucks won't go into full rebuild: ‘No steps backwards,’ says Linden

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/canucks+into+full+rebuild+steps+backwards+says+linden/11014526/story.html

 

from the hockey news dec 2016

CANUCKS PRESIDENT LINDEN SAYS REBUILD WOULDN’T BE ‘FAIR’ TO SEDINS

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/canucks-president-linden-says-rebuild-wouldn-t-be-fair-to-sedins

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12 hours ago, Honky Cat said:

The part you're missing is that it wasn't tanking...In fact.maybe it was Tallons ineptitude (by whiffing on his first two top ten picks,and signing 3 vets to brutal deals) that landed Toews and Kane...If you think that it was a pre meditated plan by Chicago management ..you're wrong.

 

 

If trading players away for a bunch of 2nd round picks, and the team being awful enough to draft 1st and 3rd overall is NOT tanking... Then I'm ok with not tanking then, and doing whatever you want to call that. 

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29 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

If trading players away for a bunch of 2nd round picks, and the team being awful enough to draft 1st and 3rd overall is NOT tanking... Then I'm ok with not tanking then, and doing whatever you want to call that. 

It reads pretty plainly on here that the fact that a few dynasties just happened to be in a position to draft top 3-5 for years on end, if that's the case, to acquire elite skill. The honour badge or the lack there of is a moot point concerning how a team gets those opportunities. Tanking, if done tastefully to still provide entertainment value, is not selling the franchise's soul, does yield predictable, measurable draft results. It is the only scientific method to apply to a drafting success philosophy. The negative condontations associated with it have their merits weighted against the conscience of Sports Entertainment, which is beyond the scope of this post, but die-hard means buy hard, so exploit it. 

 

Your position is clear, while your detractors are now spinning theirs in semantics to avoid conceding the fact that top talent - is drafted at the top.

 

I think you can leave this thread knowing that aside from these posters admitting tanking produces top talent, your opposition has begrudgingly acknowledged the statistical facts concealed in these elite roster examples. The facts are not being debated, it's now solely the honour badge, in sports entertainment yet, from posters who also drift in and out of posting that there is a NHL business conspiracy to keep this team from succeeding. Bizarre. On one hand, "the NHL is corrupt and won't let us win", yet on the other, "we can't tank, it's disrespectful to the league". 

Bipolar. 

 

 

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From what i read here the Canucks tanked to get Sedins... awesome! Also did it in the 80's to get Linden, hope we tank for five years now.

 

Someone needs to define what tanking is, right now everyone is just picking out crappy teams that sell used up assets to get more picks for an upcoming draft.  If that defines it then every team tanks.

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21 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

If trading players away for a bunch of 2nd round picks, and the team being awful enough to draft 1st and 3rd overall is NOT tanking... Then I'm ok with not tanking then, and doing whatever you want to call that. 

I don’t know if you can call what the hawks did completely tanking but you can call it a full pedal to the medal rebuild.  With the term tanking, I think it has an idea that they purposely put on the ice a poor team to get a higher draft pick, and I don’t think that was the case.

 

Their goal might not have been to make the playoffs but it also wasn’t focused on landing the first overall pick (even though they lucky won the lottery in 2007).  If that was the case they sucked at tanking since they never finished as the worst team in the league during that time.  In fact their season standings during that period weren’t much different than the canucks over the last 3 years. 

 

What their goal was, was to build completely through the draft, by accumulating draft picks, and drafting as many times as possible.  Multiple draft picks combined with top 15 picks to build a new core.  Between 2000-2004.  They drafted 64 times, an average of 12 picks per year, in those 5 years they found 16 players to play over 150gp.  It might be a shotgun fire approach, but they found a lot of impact players in those 5 years.  Keith, Ruutu, Seabrook, Byfuglein, Brouwer, Anderson, Crawford, Bickell, Bolland, Wisniewski.

 

In comparison, between 2000-15, (16 years) Hawks made 160 selections at the draft.  That’s the most out of any team between those years.  Canucks on the other hand were at the other end, we made the least amount of selections in the NHL between those years with only 109 draft selects.  Hawks drafted 51 more players than us in a span of 16 year.  That’s a lot more assets to play with. Sure lots of them didn’t work out, when it comes to Gems, all you need is one to change the outlook on your franchise, and hawks found a couple. 

 

So I don’t think you can compare what the hawks did, to what the Penguins, where their focus was to tank and build a team through strictly through getting top 5 picks.  Penguins during that same 16 time span only drafted 119 times.  Both teams focused there rebuild through the draft, but with two different methods.

 

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2 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

It reads pretty plainly on here that the fact that a few dynasties just happened to be in a position to draft top 3-5 for years on end, if that's the case, to acquire elite skill. The honour badge or the lack there of is a moot point concerning how a team gets those opportunities. Tanking, if done tastefully to still provide entertainment value, is not selling the franchise's soul, does yield predictable, measurable draft results. It is the only scientific method to apply to a drafting success philosophy. The negative condontations associated with it have their merits weighted against the conscience of Sports Entertainment, which is beyond the scope of this post, but die-hard means buy hard, so exploit it. 

 

Your position is clear, while your detractors are now spinning theirs in semantics to avoid conceding the fact that top talent - is drafted at the top.

 

I think you can leave this thread knowing that aside from these posters admitting tanking produces top talent, your opposition has begrudgingly acknowledged the statistical facts concealed in these elite roster examples. The facts are not being debated, it's now solely the honour badge, in sports entertainment yet, from posters who also drift in and out of posting that there is a NHL business conspiracy to keep this team from succeeding. Bizarre. On one hand, "the NHL is corrupt and won't let us win", yet on the other, "we can't tank, it's disrespectful to the league". 

Bipolar. 

 

 

You two should get a room. The bromance is real. 

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3 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

If trading players away for a bunch of 2nd round picks, and the team being awful enough to draft 1st and 3rd overall is NOT tanking... Then I'm ok with not tanking then, and doing whatever you want to call that. 

Tallon did acquire a lot of 2nd round picks,but realistically,..any middle of the pack team could have done the same thing...........Its all a moot point,whatever happened in Chicago in that era,is not going to happen here.

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Just now, Honky Cat said:

Tallon did acquire a lot of 2nd round picks,but realistically,..any middle of the pack team could have done the same thing...........Its all a moot point,whatever happened in Chicago in that era,is not going to happen here.

He did the same thing in Florida and they are now loaded with young kids.

He was taken out of the loop for awhile so his plan did get derailed a couple of years, but still their "core" of young studs is worthy of a little envy.

"You have to get bad before you can be good"

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5 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

He did the same thing in Florida and they are now loaded with young kids.

He was taken out of the loop for awhile so his plan did get derailed a couple of years, but still their "core" of young studs is worthy of a little envy.

"You have to get bad before you can be good"

Yup, gotta let go of the past, so we can have a brighter future.  Just because we are bringing in a next core doesn't mean that group will be a good team.  They might just be mediocre, or even bad.  Then we will fire the current management team, and a new group will try building another young core.  Is this next core really going to be more than just mediocre?

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4 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

He did the same thing in Florida and they are now loaded with young kids.

He was taken out of the loop for awhile so his plan did get derailed a couple of years, but still their "core" of young studs is worthy of a little envy.

"You have to get bad before you can be good"

There's no guarantee either way..You can get bad ,and stay bad...Look at Colorado,with a bunch of young elite players treading water..Florida is also having a regressed rebuild (even taking into account to injuries to a couple of their best players).

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10 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 Both teams focused there rebuild through the draft, but with two different methods.

You could have said just that, but your facts will scare off the anti-tank crowd. 

 

The main criticism on this management is/has been their reluctance or inability to acquire picks to "rebuild" through the draft.

How they might attain those picks remains contested philosophical differences of opinion on here. 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Honky Cat said:

There's no guarantee either way..You can get bad ,and stay bad...Look at Colorado,with a bunch of young elite players treading water..Florida is also having a regressed rebuild (even taking into account to injuries to a couple of their best players).

No guarantee, but given a choice, why not choose a method of statistically Improved chances of success? 

Colorado was too see-saw during their rebuild and should serve as a possible forcast of the future of this team if the rebuild is botched by peaking at the wrong time half way through. Toronto should be paying attention right now too. 

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1 hour ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

No guarantee, but given a choice, why not choose a method of statistically Improved chances of success? 

Colorado was too see-saw during their rebuild and should serve as a possible forcast of the future of this team if the rebuild is botched by peaking at the wrong time half way through. Toronto should be paying attention right now too. 

We came in 28th place last year,and picked 5th OA,that soured me TBH....I'm not going to say that tanking is bad,I think that it really depends on the situation of the franchise,and the players on the team....No team that had purposely tanked has won anything yet ...even though the early returns on the Leafs look good..Is it enough though?..Such a rapid improvement could put them on the 15th OA pick..the wheel of mediocrity.

 

What we do know..is that teams that have elite/generational talents were very bad,for very long stretches of time (EDM,PIT,LA,CHI)..They have won SC cups,I get that...I just cannot see myself watching terrible, losing hockey for 7 years,only being comforted by the fact that we might draft an elite talent...(which is even more of a crapshoot now because of the ping pong balls).

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5 minutes ago, Honky Cat said:

We came in 28th place last year,and picked 5th OA,that soured me TBH....I'm not going to say that tanking is bad,I think that it really depends on the situation of the franchise,and the players on the team....No team that had purposely tanked has won anything yet ...even though the early returns on the Leafs look good..Is it enough though?..Such a rapid improvement could put them on the 15th OA pick..the wheel of mediocrity.

 

What we do know..is that teams that have elite/generational talents were very bad,for very long stretches of time (EDM,PIT,LA,CHI)..They have won SC cups,I get that...I just cannot see myself watching terrible, losing hockey for 7 years,only being comforted by the fact that we might draft an elite talent...(which is even more of a crapshoot now because of the ping pong balls).

I used to think JB was stealth tanking this year, having iced a roster with the Chaputs, etc. Now, I'm not sure what he's doing. I will be disappointed if he has not acquired picks at the TDL, but will be more so if he goes into the draft with the same approach. Meanwhile, the players, I will unwaveringly support. 

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