Proposal (Duchene could end the rebuild)

[JustABandwagoner]

Just now, Alflives said:

Horvat is a 21 year old two way centre, who is trending upward.  Duchene is a 26 year old, one way guy, who might bring offence, or who might be done.  The Avs will get no better offer than the one proposed.  It will be exactly like the Hall for Larssen deal.  Why should the Avs expect more than the current market value?

Like I said, that EDM deal was stupid. It wont happen again 

 

Granlund is a top 9 forward

Sbisa is a top 6 

 

Duchene is a 1B/2A forward 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, DontMessMe said:

That trade was stupid. It wont happen again.

 

*extreme low chance of happening

Why?  These top four defenders have a lot of value.  Unless a one way forward is outscoring his defensive liabilities, I see his value as lower.  

[JustABandwagoner]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Why?  These top four defenders have a lot of value.  Unless a one way forward is outscoring his defensive liabilities, I see his value as lower.  

Sbisa aint top 4 bruh

 

lets see

 

Gudbranson fetched 

 

Mccann (B prospect) 

2nd round pick 

[coastal.view]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Horvat is a 21 year old two way centre, who is trending upward.  Duchene is a 26 year old, one way guy, who might bring offence, or who might be done.  The Avs will get no better offer than the one proposed.  It will be exactly like the Hall for Larssen deal.  Why should the Avs expect more than the current market value?

that's how you do a trade

 

disparage the value of the guy you really want (duchene)

cuz why would you trade for him unless you really wanted him

 

inflate the value of the guys you are willing to part with

compare granlund to ror (i mean if he really is that why on earth would we trade him.. keep him. .he is perfect for the rebuild then)

compare sbisa to larssen..  not fair at all

 

then throw in the hall / larssen deal as the barometer for the trade

 

well i guess then it all makes sense

 

you do live on an alien planet alf

[JustABandwagoner]

Just now, coastal.view said:

that's how you do a trade

 

disparage the value of the guy you really want (duchene)

cuz why would you trade for him unless you really wanted him

 

inflate the value of the guys you are willing to part with

compare granlund to ror (i mean if he really is that why on earth would we trade him.. keep him. .he is perfect for the rebuild then)

compare sbisa to larssen..  not fair at all

 

then throw in the hall / larssen deal as the barometer for the trade

 

well i guess then it all makes sense

 

you do live on an alien planet alf

This. 

 

Thank you :D 

[Beary Sweet]

Boy didn't Benning clearly say just a couple days ago we aren't trading any more picks and the Guddy trade was the last he was going to give draft picks. For a guy like Duchene though, it's worth the risk. Has proven track record of putting points on the board on a consistent basis. I'd do something like Sbisa, Granny, and a 1st for Duchene and a 3rd if we get lucky but knowing Benning, he'll overpay to some extent

[JustABandwagoner]

4 minutes ago, Beary Sweet said:

Boy didn't Benning clearly say just a couple days ago we aren't trading any more picks and the Guddy trade was the last he was going to give draft picks. For a guy like Duchene though, it's worth the risk. Has proven track record of putting points on the board on a consistent basis. I'd do something like Sbisa, Granny, and a 1st for Duchene and a 3rd if we get lucky but knowing Benning, he'll overpay to some extent

Sbisa Granlund 1st isnt enough. Its gonna take a big overpayment on our side. Anaylst have said sakic has a big price tag on him 

[MJDDawg]

42 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Hall returned Larssen.  Sbisa and Granlund give the Avs what they need: an emerging top 4 defenceman and an emerging defensive centre that can put up points.  

Time to change up your meds Alf.

[shiznak]

Colorado needs to add, imo.

 

We're losing 4 assets for 2.

[Alflives]

Just now, MJDDawg said:

Time to change up your meds Alf.

I did.  I'm taking JB's blue and green meanies.  They make me believe our Canuck's players are "real good".  

[coastal.view]

1 hour ago, Mr.53 said:

If you look actually look at the Ryan Kesler trade as a template, this one is similar.

• Bonino was a less good version of Kesler, however younger and with a much cheaper contract, much like Granlund to Duchene.
• Sbisa was a young defensman at the time meant to help our much lacking blue line. Sbisa is older now, but he's gotten better and stronger, heavier, and tougher. Colorado is in need of even more desperate help on the backend then we were back then. Fedor Tyutin basically just comes to us to help our team a little bit now but he's not necessary in the grand scheme. Sbisa takes his spot and is much younger, so can join the Avs core and help them in the future.
• We got a late first round pick for Kesler, (Jared McCann). Instead of Colorado getting a first round pick, they get a almost NHL ready, 21 year old speedy PMD defenseman, which is also what they need and have asked for, and a 2nd round pick.

of course

let's use the kesler trade as the barometer of value for this proposal

cuz of course:

 

1.  duchene has a contract that has a ntc (he does not)

2.  and he has told avs management he wants a trade now (as he will no longer don an av jersey)

3.  and he is willing to go to only 1 team

4.  and that team is the vancouver canucks (oh joy, a lottery win for us)

 

i think i read that in the national inquirer or some other reliable news outlet

 

so yes, the kesler trade is the template that should be used here

when comparing the value of players to trade for duchene

good job!!! 

[Mr.53]

When we traded for Ryan Kesler, he returned

 

1. Nick Bonino a lesser younger version of a center on a cheap manageable contract
2. Luca Sbisa, a young defensman that barely got minutes in Anahiem but had potential
3. And a late first round pick that we spent on Jared McCann

 

Why is it so absurd to think that Matt Duchene can return

 

1. Markus Granlund, a lesser younger version of a center on a cheap and manageable contract (who still has solid potential btw)
2. Luca Sbisa a slightly older but still only 26 defensman, who actually gets solid minutes and has developed into a 2nd pairing dman.
3. Jordan Subban, a high quality defensive prospect like they asked, and a 2nd round pick to spend on whatever they want.

 

Colorado has publicly said any deal has to incorporate either a young defensman, or high quality defensive prospect. This deal gets them both who can join their lineup, which covers exactly what they want, as well as a solid replacement piece in Granlund who could be an impact player one day, and a 2nd round pick. 

 

It's seriously a very fair deal, where both sides get what they want, and the value has some historic precedent. I would say maybe we add a 3rd and they add a 4th or 5th but it seems pretty fair and doable.

[qwijibo]

7 minutes ago, Mr.53 said:

When we traded for Ryan Kesler, he returned

 

1. Nick Bonino a lesser younger version of a center on a cheap manageable contract
2. Luca Sbisa, a young defensman that barely got minutes in Anahiem but had potential
3. And a late first round pick that we spent on Jared McCann

 

Why is it so absurd to think that Matt Duchene can return

 

1. Markus Granlund, a lesser younger version of a center on a cheap and manageable contract (who still has solid potential btw)
2. Luca Sbisa a slightly older but still only 26 defensman, who actually gets solid minutes and has developed into a 2nd pairing dman.
3. Jordan Subban, a high quality defensive prospect like they asked, and a 2nd round pick to spend on whatever they want.

 

Colorado has publicly said any deal has to incorporate either a young defensman, or high quality defensive prospect. This deal gets them both who can join their lineup, which covers exactly what they want, as well as a solid replacement piece in Granlund who could be an impact player one day, and a 2nd round pick. 

 

It's seriously a very fair deal, where both sides get what they want, and the value has some historic precedent. I would say maybe we add a 3rd and they add a 4th or 5th but it seems pretty fair and doable.

It's spare parts for a top line player.  

[JustABandwagoner]

5 minutes ago, Mr.53 said:

When we traded for Ryan Kesler, he returned

 

1. Nick Bonino a lesser younger version of a center on a cheap manageable contract
2. Luca Sbisa, a young defensman that barely got minutes in Anahiem but had potential
3. And a late first round pick that we spent on Jared McCann

 

Why is it so absurd to think that Matt Duchene can return

 

1. Markus Granlund, a lesser younger version of a center on a cheap and manageable contract (who still has solid potential btw)
2. Luca Sbisa a slightly older but still only 26 defensman, who actually gets solid minutes and has developed into a 2nd pairing dman.
3. Jordan Subban, a high quality defensive prospect like they asked, and a 2nd round pick to spend on whatever they want.

 

Colorado has publicly said any deal has to incorporate either a young defensman, or high quality defensive prospect. This deal gets them both who can join their lineup, which covers exactly what they want, as well as a solid replacement piece in Granlund who could be an impact player one day, and a 2nd round pick. 

 

It's seriously a very fair deal, where both sides get what they want, and the value has some historic precedent. I would say maybe we add a 3rd and they add a 4th or 5th but it seems pretty fair and doable.

STOPPPP!! JUST STOP PLZ. This deal is REMOTELY NOT FAIR for the Avs 

 

Granlund- Top 9 foward 

Sbisa- Top 6 D man (wont be a top 4 on a good team) 

Jordan Subban- Your calling him a "high quality defencemen" Are you fking serious... Stop inflating canucks player values and decreasing the value of Duchene.. 

 

 A High quality defencemen is like Zach Werenski/Ekblad/Jones.  Subban is a "C prospect". If Subban was "high quality" he would be on our team already... 

 

Refer to below 

 

8 minutes ago, coastal.view said:

of course

let's use the kesler trade as the barometer of value for this proposal

cuz of course:

 

1.  duchene has a contract that has a ntc (he does not)

2.  and he has told avs management he wants a trade now (as he will no longer don an av jersey)

3.  and he is willing to go to only 1 team

4.  and that team is the vancouver canucks (oh joy, a lottery win for us)

 

i think i read that in the national inquirer or some other reliable news outlet

 

so yes, the kesler trade is the template that should be used here

when comparing the value of players to trade for duchene

good job!!! 

Also what @qwijibo said is correct

 

Useless spare parts or meh spare parts for a #1 player.. 

[Mr.53]

1 minute ago, qwijibo said:

It's spare parts for a top line player.  

Would you call the Kesler deal spare parts? I mean kind of yeah. Anaheim gave us the pieces they didn't need. Luca Sbisa, and a first round pick to upgrade Bonino to Kesler. We would basically be giving Sbisa, Subban, and a 2nd, to upgrade Granlund to Duchene. Both trades, teams gave up a multitude of quality pieces they didn't exactly have a dying need for, and the other team walks out with the better player.

 

 If you don't think it's fair than at most change the 2nd round pick to a first, and have them return a 2nd or a 3rd. But there is literally historical precedent for a deal like this to get done.

[JustABandwagoner]

1 minute ago, Mr.53 said:

Would you call the Kesler deal spare parts? I mean kind of yeah. Anaheim gave us the pieces they didn't need. Luca Sbisa, and a first round pick to upgrade Bonino to Kesler. We would basically be giving Sbisa, Subban, and a 2nd, to upgrade Granlund to Duchene. Both trades, teams gave up a multitude of quality pieces they didn't exactly have a dying need for, and the other team walks out with the better player.

 

 If you don't think it's fair than at most change the 2nd round pick to a first, and have them return a 2nd or a 3rd. But there is literally historical precedent for a deal like this to get done.

Read below... Kesler only had 3 teams on his trade list... Duchene doesnt 

17 minutes ago, coastal.view said:

of course

let's use the kesler trade as the barometer of value for this proposal

cuz of course:

 

1.  duchene has a contract that has a ntc (he does not)

2.  and he has told avs management he wants a trade now (as he will no longer don an av jersey)

3.  and he is willing to go to only 1 team

4.  and that team is the vancouver canucks (oh joy, a lottery win for us)

 

i think i read that in the national inquirer or some other reliable news outlet

 

so yes, the kesler trade is the template that should be used here

when comparing the value of players to trade for duchene

good job!!! 

 

[JustABandwagoner]

2 minutes ago, Mr.53 said:

Would you call the Kesler deal spare parts? I mean kind of yeah. Anaheim gave us the pieces they didn't need. Luca Sbisa, and a first round pick to upgrade Bonino to Kesler. We would basically be giving Sbisa, Subban, and a 2nd, to upgrade Granlund to Duchene. Both trades, teams gave up a multitude of quality pieces they didn't exactly have a dying need for, and the other team walks out with the better player.

 

 If you don't think it's fair than at most change the 2nd round pick to a first, and have them return a 2nd or a 3rd. But there is literally historical precedent for a deal like this to get done.

Also bruh

 

How about I offer you 

 

1) A undersized 21 yr old D Man playing in the AHL 

2) A #6 Dman 

3) Top 9 forward 

4) 2nd round pick 

 

For 

 

Bo Horvat 

 

How would u feel

 

[qwijibo]

1 minute ago, Mr.53 said:

Would you call the Kesler deal spare parts? I mean kind of yeah. Anaheim gave us the pieces they didn't need. Luca Sbisa, and a first round pick to upgrade Bonino to Kesler. We would basically be giving Sbisa, Subban, and a 2nd, to upgrade Granlund to Duchene. Both trades, teams gave up a multitude of quality pieces they didn't exactly have a dying need for, and the other team walks out with the better player.

 

 If you don't think it's fair than at most change the 2nd round pick to a first, and have them return a 2nd or a 3rd. But there is literally historical precedent for a deal like this to get done.

Kesler demanded a trade then tied managements habds by only agreeing to go to one team.  So comparing the return is meaningless.  Colorado don't HAVE to make a trade. If they do. They're going to get true value. Not a couple depth players and a long shot prospect 

[Mr.53]

21 minutes ago, DontMessMe said:

Also bruh

 

How about I offer you 

 

1) A undersized 21 yr old D Man playing in the AHL 

2) A #6 Dman 

3) Top 9 forward 

4) 2nd round pick 

 

For 

 

Bo Horvat 

 

How would u feel

 

That's not how it is. Matt Duchene is a 25 year old scoring center who has been able to put up 60ish point seasons playing with stars like Landeskog, Mackinnon, etc. He's not like Sidney Crosby or something. Furthermore, you have a certain way of undervaluing our pieces because they are our pieces. Sbisa is a 2nd pairing Dman on most teams, including the Avs. He's one of our sole players with a positive plus minus and the ability to play defense, hit, and put up 15-20 points a season.

 

Markus Granlund is pretty much a rookie right now. He's not just a top 9 forward. Saying that assumes he won't get better. Bonino was already in his prime and couldn't get much better, Granlund is showing he's improving still and can likely be a second line scorer.

 

Jordan Subban is fair in being undersized, but even in so, he's done very well in Utica playing the role of sole defensive star on a very weak team. He is a high quality defensive prospect and JB and Linden have already regarded that they think so still. It's everything that they need and ask for. A recent story talked about how they sought Brendan Carlo, a young guy that can defend on the NHL level and play a heavy game. Sbisa is what Carlo is minus the age, and Subban is the PMD prospect they wanted. With that on top of Nic Meloche the Avs have a pretty good team on the blue line.

 

I'd be willing to give up a Tanev but I feel Sbisa is the one they would want, and I'd be willing to give up our first provided they give a pick back. We can agree to disagree because this deal looks fair for both sides and matches what each side wants.

 

And given if Bo was 25, and was going to be an UFA in a couple years and has shown fairly publicly that he wants to move on, then maybe I'd take it.

[-AJ-]

I like your choice to model it after the Kesler deal, but Granlund's value today is less than Sutter's in the Kesler deal. Granlund looks really good and might really be, but he's yet to prove it over the long term. At the time of the Kesler deal, Sutter already had two 20-goal seasons and a 17-goal season. He was a fairly well known quantity and Granlund is still a wild card.

 

Sbisa has great +/- and I love that he's improved dramatically, but let's be honest, if he's a 4/5 guy in Vancouver, he's a #6 guy in most other markets, especially ones with good teams. His good +/- is also countered by his terrible Corsi and Fenwick numbers, in which he is 2nd last and last on our team's defensemen, respectively. A high number of blocks would be a counterpoint to this, but Sbisa's 1.5 blocks per game are only a middle-of-the-pack number for the Canucks d-core. While Sbisa is a hard hitter (arguably one of our best hitters), his 1.6 hits per game is surpassed by Edler, Gudbranson, Tryamkin, and Biega (who is first). He also has many giveaways, 2nd among our d-core. This isn't to say that Sbisa is terrible; he's alright...for a bottom-pairing role. Suggesting that he's a top four defenseman isn't particularly defensible I'd say.

 

Subban has very little value I'd say. He's still improving and could still make the NHL, but it's really a long shot. Given his height and a propensity for defensive lapses, I'd say it's more likely that he'll have a career dominating the AHL than become an NHL star. I hope I'm wrong and he rips it up for Vancouver, but I see the AHL as the most likely result. 

 

Colorado laughs at this offer.