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Building a Canucks Cup team


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First order of business: do nothing, don't stockpile picks and mention excuses under the veil of fairness as to why we will wait to bottom out, enevitably, later. Low-risk model attracts the same paying fans regardless of roster product anyways.

 

Second: draft another softish D over a rugged, clutch, pedigreed, scoring winger.

 

Third: pick 13th overall.

Fourth: "

 

Long-term goal is to emulate the 'Canes model of drafting outside of the impact player top-5, for at least a decade, until the roster has no choice but to "compete" for lotto picks. Then, slowly build a roster with top 7 picks until the roster is studded with impact players. 

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23 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Very few players even inside the top 5 ever hit Sedins level.  How many players in the NHL today have put up 110 points in a season?  

I don't think anyone expects exact replica's of the twins level, but elite scores aren't based on a contingent that teams need to pick in the top 5 to acquire.

 

Seguin and Benn didn't cost the stars and top 5 picks

Zetterberg and Datzyuk

Vorachek, Giroux

Monahan, Johnny

Getzlaf and Perry

Naslund, Bertuzzi

Tarasenko and steen

Burns and Pavelski

Karlsson and Stone

Bergeron and Krejci

Marchand and Pastrnak

 

ESP like theirs will likely never be matched; the #99 of twin power. 

I will give them that.

 

Impact players. 

 

They don't have to be scorers, they can be elite checkers, goalies or defenders. Or Toews-like play over points. Impact players impact the game in many other ways than the scoresheet. Exactly the reason why you should always draft an Iginla over a Naslund. Each will have 80 points, but Iggy impacted the game in every regard, whereas Naslund just got points. 

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45 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

They don't have to be scorers, they can be elite checkers, goalies or defenders. Or Toews-like play over points. Impact players impact the game in many other ways than the scoresheet. Exactly the reason why you should always draft an Iginla over a Naslund. Each will have 80 points, but Iggy impacted the game in every regard, whereas Naslund just got points. 

This is something that a lot of people don't see. They only worry about offense but defense and goal tending is 80% of building a team. Fans seem to think Virtanen is a bust but if he becomes a solid two way hard checking forward he will be so valuable. If Tryamkin keeps down this development curve he could be a special player going forward. It is not all about points.

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On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 10:46 AM, S'all Good Man said:

Not just that, but the ref's put the whistles away too after that. But losing Manny was tough, we would have dominated possession. Losing Manny and Hamhius was just too much since Kesler blew the wad as well. 

sammuelson was a big loss too, even though it was in the first round. He had the experience and depth we needed.

erhoff was banged up too playing SJ. Raymond gone in game 6 didn't help either. What ifs...

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On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 9:37 AM, CaptKirk888 said:

I don't want to watch the ensuing 8 seasons this will take to accomplish. 

Please wake me from my cryogenic slumber when we reach compete level again.

just follow another team, or be a bandwagoner. Jump back when they are in a cup run again. Easy.

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16 minutes ago, Jaimito said:

sammuelson was a big loss too, even though it was in the first round. He had the experience and depth we needed.

erhoff was banged up too playing SJ. Raymond gone in game 6 didn't help either. What ifs...

Edler was playing with a mangled hand (two broken fingers)

Ehrhoff was playing with a banged up shoulder

Bieksa was playing with a bruised MCL in his knee

Hamhuis got injured throwing hipcheck on Lucic in game 1

Rome got himself suspended for throwing a LEGAL check that was less than a second late (thanks NHL) in game 3

Ballard...well he just sucked LOL

 

That just left Salo as the only fully healthy D of any real consequence.

 

Other(s)

Tanev - a rookie

Alberts - #7 guy

Nolan Baumgartner - LOL....

 

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On 1/19/2017 at 11:40 AM, PhillipBlunt said:

True, and the Canucks had no answer to that. That's been a huge part of Benning's MO in the type of players he's drafted and traded for.

 

Tryamkin continues his ascension and Gudbranson comes back fully healed with everything to prove, well...I'm looking forward to it.

thats true and the only thing that keeps me watching...

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I dont really want to talk about yesteryear yet again, but there are several "what if's" that could have been the thing that brought us the cup in 2011; we were so, so close.

 

I think our supporting cast is quite good.  Of course there will be turnover, but lets look at where we stand with our current roster:

 

Our defense is deeper and has the potential to be better than in 2011.  That largely depends on how Hutton, Juolevi and Stecher continue developing, of course, but it looks solid.

 

I think our bottom six look generally good.  For the second line, I see Horvat as a reasonable Keeper replacement, Eriksson as a Samuellson replacement (when he finally plays to his potential) and MAYBE Baertschi as a Raymond replacement depending on how he continues developing.

 

For our third, Sutter doesn't have the same skillset as Malhotra, but what he gives up he makes up for in a bit more scoring ability.  Ill place Hansen on this line again where I believe he is a natural fit given his energy and skill level, but would say he's better now than ever.  And Granlund seems to be coming into his own, so no issues there... Though the line obviously lacks the physicality that Torres brought, I believe Virtanen must be in a position at some point to fill that role.

 

For the 4th line, I would say Dorsett (healthy) and skille are perfect for that line, and the only place we are lacking is center... Though Gaunce and Chaput show some level of promise.  Who knows... If he continues his resurgence perhaps Burrows is even part of the equation still.

 

So I think Benning has built a great complimentary team.  But as was mentioned by someone else, even if Boeser becomes what we are hoping (and he may not) we are still lacking two elite 1st line guys equal to the Sedins in their prime.  That kind of talent doesnt grow on trees, and I cant see how we are going to get those two players without either a couple very high draft picks, or absolutely spectacular drafting.  The UFA market usually doesnt get you any better than a 2nd liner, and I'm not sure we have the assets to trade for such a player.

 

So the first line is certainly a challenge.  And one that is absolutely required if we are going to compete for the cup again.

 

To finish it off, I think Luongo was thr best goalie weve ever had.  With that said, he had difficulty upping his game in the playoffs.  As a result, I'm confident that one of Markstrom or Demko have the potential of putting up similar, if not better numbers.

 

So I think we have overall a far better team than most give us credit for.  That elite talent is what we need, but hard to get.   With that said, to be fair, if the Sedins were in their prime we could expect they be sitting at about 60 points right now.  That would translate to about 15-20 extra goals per (average) or 30-40 more goals total.  That would put us at about +18 goal differential, which is actually well below the current nhl leaders who are around the +50 range.  Obviously if we had an elite winger like Boeser work out, that shores up the gap to possibly be top in the league.  

 

So in summary, no, we don't need a lot overall to be the same or better than we were in 2011.  All we need are two superstars from out of nowhere, and for our best prospect to fully hit his potential.  Is that too much to ask?

 

Possibly.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, kloubek said:

Our defense is deeper and has the potential to be better than in 2011.  That largely depends on how Hutton, Juolevi and Stecher continue developing, of course, but it looks solid.

 

Hamhuis  (when he was still in his prime)

Bieksa  (back when he was still a top 4 D)

Edler  (less mileage on his back then)

Ehrhoff

Salo

Ballard

Rome

Alberts

 

In the pipeline

Tanev

Connaughton

Corrado 

 

That's a pretty mean feat IMHO to be deeper than that.

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2 hours ago, Jaimito said:

sammuelson was a big loss too, even though it was in the first round. He had the experience and depth we needed.

erhoff was banged up too playing SJ. Raymond gone in game 6 didn't help either. What ifs...

if with all that, if Rome hadn't made that stupid hit... 

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2 hours ago, Jaimito said:

just follow another team, or be a bandwagoner. Jump back when they are in a cup run again. Easy.

I was joking. Die hard fan since circa 1973. I used to listen to all the games on nw98 (not many Canucks games on tv back in those days).

i suffered thru every bad stretch in team history, but have been rewarded by the 3 cup runs, watching Bure, west coast express and of course for the last 17 yrs the best 2 players this franchise has ever had.

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2 hours ago, S'all Good Man said:

if with all that, if Rome hadn't made that stupid hit... 

Scott Steven's makes a hundred of those hits in the playoffs and never gets looked at. Rome is a half second too late and gets looked at by Murphy who has to consult with Burnie about the suspension. Backroom sleaze at its finest. 

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7 hours ago, Jaimito said:

sammuelson was a big loss too, even though it was in the first round. He had the experience and depth we needed.

erhoff was banged up too playing SJ. Raymond gone in game 6 didn't help either. What ifs...

The thing about Sammy was he was totally unpredictable. Nobody, even his own team, hardly had any idea what he was gonna do when he got the puck.

He was a like a high end schizophrenic spazz. 

But what happened was it really shook up the other team when he was out there. You can't really defend against a guy like that. Big loss for sure. Agreed. 

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14 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Hamhuis  (when he was still in his prime)

Bieksa  (back when he was still a top 4 D)

Edler  (less mileage on his back then)

Ehrhoff

Salo

Ballard

Rome

Alberts

 

In the pipeline

Tanev

Connaughton

Corrado 

 

That's a pretty mean feat IMHO to be deeper than that.

It certainly is - we had a real solid blueline back then.  But keep in mind I said "potential".  One can always talk about the "potential" of their team, but usually there is an indication that players with potential may not be putting it together properly.  In this kind of category, I put players like Gaunce, Virtanen, Shinkaruk.  All guys with good skillsets and obvious upside, but guys who just seem to be "held back" for whatever reason which makes their future unclear.

 

I don't get this feeling with our defensive lineup for the most part.  We know exactly what we have in Edler - though you are right, his best days are certainly behind him.  Despite his size, Stecher is going to be a star - mark my words.  Hutton has taken a step back this season, but he's going to remain at least a mid-pairing defenseman.  (I still believe he has a strong potential to be a 1st pairing kind of player.) Tryamkin is absolutely going to be an NHL player for his career - although his ceiling overall is really hard to know at this point.  Regardless, he brings so much physicality that I think it helps compensate for our smaller players like Stecher.  I also think he could be a game-changer by himself.  He HURTS people.  When purely looking at shutdown ability, I think Tanev is the best we've ever had.  Unfortunately, he's pretty useless outside of that role.   Gudbranson is quite a polarizing player, and aside from his physicality I honestly don't see a lot of upside from him so I'm going to slot him in as our 5th defenseman, once everyone is finished developing.  And the much improved Sbisa rounds out the 6th defenseman.

I always felt that our 6th defenseman in that era was a plug.  Ballard (who I had high hopes for, but never found his game here), Rome, Alberts all rotated in and out of that position and all were serviceable, but none really did a GOOD job.  As much as I've been down on Sbisa, he's really improved his game and I'd take our current Sbisa over how an of those guys played for us. 

 

Overall, what made the 2011 defense so great and where we fall short right now is that we had Ehrhoff who put up the points like nobody's business, but yet the other top 4 defenseman could also contribute consistently.  I could see a guy like Stecher putting up equal points for sure.  But otherwise, now we've replaced well-rounded players with more role players; either you're a physical guy, you're are a skill guy, or a shutdown guy. Generally not two, and certainly not 3 of those traits combined.  I believe our physical guys are more physical than they were back then.  As mentioned I also believe Tanev shuts down better than anyone we've had prior. I do also think that handling the current roster might be more challenging for a coach, as he has to pay closer attention to his matchups.  So it's kind of a wash between the two eras, in my opinion, and really comes down to how high of a ceiling our younger guys have.  We might end up slightly worse, but might even end up slightly better if all the stars align.

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7 hours ago, kloubek said:

It certainly is - we had a real solid blueline back then.  But keep in mind I said "potential".  One can always talk about the "potential" of their team, but usually there is an indication that players with potential may not be putting it together properly.  In this kind of category, I put players like Gaunce, Virtanen, Shinkaruk.  All guys with good skillsets and obvious upside, but guys who just seem to be "held back" for whatever reason which makes their future unclear.

 

I don't get this feeling with our defensive lineup for the most part.  We know exactly what we have in Edler - though you are right, his best days are certainly behind him.  Despite his size, Stecher is going to be a star - mark my words.  Hutton has taken a step back this season, but he's going to remain at least a mid-pairing defenseman.  (I still believe he has a strong potential to be a 1st pairing kind of player.) Tryamkin is absolutely going to be an NHL player for his career - although his ceiling overall is really hard to know at this point.  Regardless, he brings so much physicality that I think it helps compensate for our smaller players like Stecher.  I also think he could be a game-changer by himself.  He HURTS people.  When purely looking at shutdown ability, I think Tanev is the best we've ever had.  Unfortunately, he's pretty useless outside of that role.   Gudbranson is quite a polarizing player, and aside from his physicality I honestly don't see a lot of upside from him so I'm going to slot him in as our 5th defenseman, once everyone is finished developing.  And the much improved Sbisa rounds out the 6th defenseman.

I always felt that our 6th defenseman in that era was a plug.  Ballard (who I had high hopes for, but never found his game here), Rome, Alberts all rotated in and out of that position and all were serviceable, but none really did a GOOD job.  As much as I've been down on Sbisa, he's really improved his game and I'd take our current Sbisa over how an of those guys played for us. 

 

Overall, what made the 2011 defense so great and where we fall short right now is that we had Ehrhoff who put up the points like nobody's business, but yet the other top 4 defenseman could also contribute consistently.  I could see a guy like Stecher putting up equal points for sure.  But otherwise, now we've replaced well-rounded players with more role players; either you're a physical guy, you're are a skill guy, or a shutdown guy. Generally not two, and certainly not 3 of those traits combined.  I believe our physical guys are more physical than they were back then.  As mentioned I also believe Tanev shuts down better than anyone we've had prior. I do also think that handling the current roster might be more challenging for a coach, as he has to pay closer attention to his matchups.  So it's kind of a wash between the two eras, in my opinion, and really comes down to how high of a ceiling our younger guys have.  We might end up slightly worse, but might even end up slightly better if all the stars align.

Good comments.  Fast forward 3 years with Juolevi in the mix and the D corps could be better.  Edler will be retired.  They may be as good offensively, defensively and have a physical presence in every pair too.

 

I'm a little nervous what happens in the expansion draft.  We may see Sbisa gone but he's really a support piece, as the group matures, a #5 who can play 2nd pair in case of injuries.  That's a nice thing to have but Guddy may end up in that role too.

 

 

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Funny that almost no one seems to remember Alain Vineult. Who, after winning 2 presidents trophies in a row with us here , was fired, and went on to win another presidents trophy in his first year with his new team...That was the begging of the end in my eyes of our stanley cup team, dismantled poorly into the team we are now. With some better signings in 2012 we could have rebounded, but the series of errors continued..

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