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[Rumour] Toronto in on Landeskog/Duchene


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13 minutes ago, canucklehead44 said:

Agreed. I don't think Toronto can afford to give up Zaitsev or Reilly. Gardiner, Kapanen + 1st rounder? Gardiner has 25 points, +16. That said, maybe Gardiner is too valuable as well? He isn't very popular in Toronto. 

"Busting Two Huge Toronto Maple Leafs Myths"
"

2. Jake Gardiner Is not a Top-Pairing Guy

This has to be the most annoying myth in Leafland.  Jake Gardiner just can’t get the respect he deserves.  Let’s be clear: He is a legit-top pairing defenseman.  This season specifically, he has been one of the better defenseman in the NHL.  He isn’t a Norris Candidate, but it wouldn’t be ridiculous if he got a few votes either.

Jake Gardiner’s 53.96% score-adjusted CF rating ranks him 20th in the NHL among D who have played 500 minutes.  He is good for an automatic 30 points every year, and he is among the best in the NHL at limiting shots.

Over 60 minutes of ice time, the Leafs average 5 extra shots than their opponent when Gardiner plays.  His WOWY stats show he makes 100% of the players he plays with better.

His Hero Chart shows how much impact he has as a defensive player. It says that Gardiner is a top-pairing defensive player, and only his point totals keep him out of being truly elite.  Last year’s  Wins Against Replacement ranked him as the 29th best defenseman in the NHL.

Jake Gardiner may not score enough to get the credit he really deserves. He quietly makes everyone he plays with better, and when he’s on the ice, the Leafs are one of the best teams in hockey.  His defensive work is such that if he scored 10-20 points/year more he’d be a top-ten defenseman.

As it is, he is easily a top 30 – which makes him a first-line, top-pairing guy.  He is among the most underrated players in the NHL and is easily the Toronto Maple Leafs best dman."


 

I don't think Kapanen or Gardiner qualify as choice for what Sakic is dangling.

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1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

Sakics' ask is a top 4 D man (young) a blue chip prospect and a 1st round pick.

 

It's a sideways and backwards step for the Leafs IMO

Nylander + Gardiner + 1st might be enough for Lando.  But yeah, if you thought Toronto's D was bad before... plus their AHL coach says their D prospects are still "years away".  Maybe it's just Dreger wanting some Leaf "us too" out there...

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2 hours ago, canucklehead44 said:

Agreed. I don't think Toronto can afford to give up Zaitsev or Reilly. Gardiner, Kapanen + 1st rounder? Gardiner has 25 points, +16. That said, maybe Gardiner is too valuable as well? He isn't very popular in Toronto. 

"Busting Two Huge Toronto Maple Leafs Myths"
"

2. Jake Gardiner Is not a Top-Pairing Guy

This has to be the most annoying myth in Leafland.  Jake Gardiner just can’t get the respect he deserves.  Let’s be clear: He is a legit-top pairing defenseman.  This season specifically, he has been one of the better defenseman in the NHL.  He isn’t a Norris Candidate, but it wouldn’t be ridiculous if he got a few votes either.

Jake Gardiner’s 53.96% score-adjusted CF rating ranks him 20th in the NHL among D who have played 500 minutes.  He is good for an automatic 30 points every year, and he is among the best in the NHL at limiting shots.

Over 60 minutes of ice time, the Leafs average 5 extra shots than their opponent when Gardiner plays.  His WOWY stats show he makes 100% of the players he plays with better.

His Hero Chart shows how much impact he has as a defensive player. It says that Gardiner is a top-pairing defensive player, and only his point totals keep him out of being truly elite.  Last year’s  Wins Against Replacement ranked him as the 29th best defenseman in the NHL.

Jake Gardiner may not score enough to get the credit he really deserves. He quietly makes everyone he plays with better, and when he’s on the ice, the Leafs are one of the best teams in hockey.  His defensive work is such that if he scored 10-20 points/year more he’d be a top-ten defenseman.

As it is, he is easily a top 30 – which makes him a first-line, top-pairing guy.  He is among the most underrated players in the NHL and is easily the Toronto Maple Leafs best dman."


 

Sorry but this stuff is good for a laugh, but hard to take seriously.

 

Gardiner's corsi isn't actually impressive at all when it's taken in context.

First, he gets the second highest ozone starts on the Leafs blueline - only the rookie Carrick gets higher, whom he primarily plays with.

Second, he plays against net negative possession opponents.

 

In other words, he's sheltered, still.

 

And the hero chart stuff is sheer nonsense when you look at the fact that the type of deployment guys like Polak or Zaitsev get.

 

Gardiner isn't the best defenseman on the Leafs - not even close - let alone top 30 in the NHL, which is utterly absurd.

 

These metrics are highly misleading and unfortunately continue to get peddled by 'analysts' that literally don't know what they're talking about.

 

Zaitsev plays harder minutes - with 44% ozone starts (compared to Gardiner's 57%) - against stronger quality opponents than Gardiner, produces more than Gardiner does, and yet  apparently Gardiner according to Hero Charts and cherry-picked corsi is a legit #1D, and if he scored 10 more points would be a top 10 D in the league.  

'WOWeee' is right.  

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3 hours ago, Hutton Wink said:

Nylander + Gardiner + 1st might be enough for Lando.  But yeah, if you thought Toronto's D was bad before... plus their AHL coach says their D prospects are still "years away".  Maybe it's just Dreger wanting some Leaf "us too" out there...

No way TO gives that up. Sakic can ask for McDavid, doesn't mean he's getting what he wants. That would be a gross overpayment. 

 

Nylander a good D prospect and a 2nd or 3rd is all he'll get out of TO imo. 

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4 hours ago, canucklehead80 said:

Agreed, solid defender for some high end skill. Makes sense. Although, I think T.O. is more interested in picking up our scraps. Would probably pick up Larsen if we tried sending him down. That would answer their defensive problems, wouldn't it?

Nah, Larsen won't help. He's a fringe NHLer.  They need top end D help. A Tanev would do wonders for that team. 

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1 minute ago, WHL rocks said:

Nah, Larsen won't help. He's a fringe NHLer.  They need top end D help. A Tanev would do wonders for that team. 

My sarcasm was kind of relating to the Leafs taking all our cast-offs....Matthias, Raymond, Corrado, Booth....nobody that is an actually solid contributor you'd add to you core longterm. Hence, why I threw Larsen's name out there.

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I think Toronto should and would do a Nylander for Tanev 1 for 1 in a heartbeat. Nylander is good, and might end up being an elite 1st liner. However, he is a bit redundant for Toronto when you consider who he is up against. They already have the rookie top liners in Matthews and Marner. They have the middle aged vets in JVR, Kadri and Bozak. They would/should rather have someone like Tanev that slots into the #1 RHD instead of Nylander slotting into second/third line wing. Tanev would also likely help with Zaitsev's development as he could be protected a bit more selectively with Tanev around. 

 

Basically, when you look at the leafs lineup with Tanev in it instead of Nylander, they look a lot more complete and formidable to me at least. So regardless of what you think about their value individually, the leafs should be interested. 

 

On the Canucks side, I'm not sure many would be upset with a trade like this (although I would hope Benning could grab a later pick from Toronto as well), our lineup now and in the future looks better. And if we traded Hansen for a pick, we would no longer worry about losing much in the E-draft. It would likely be Gaunce gone. 

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26 minutes ago, canucklehead80 said:

My sarcasm was kind of relating to the Leafs taking all our cast-offs....Matthias, Raymond, Corrado, Booth....nobody that is an actually solid contributor you'd add to you core longterm. Hence, why I threw Larsen's name out there.

I was pretty sure it was sarcasm. Just wasn't 100% sure. 

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3 hours ago, oldnews said:

Sorry but this stuff is good for a laugh, but hard to take seriously.

 

Gardiner's corsi isn't actually impressive at all when it's taken in context.

First, he gets the second highest ozone starts on the Leafs blueline - only the rookie Carrick gets higher, whom he primarily plays with.

Second, he plays against net negative possession opponents.

 

In other words, he's sheltered, still.

 

And the hero chart stuff is sheer nonsense when you look at the fact that the type of deployment guys like Polak or Zaitsev get.

 

Gardiner isn't the best defenseman on the Leafs - not even close - let alone top 30 in the NHL, which is utterly absurd.

 

These metrics are highly misleading and unfortunately continue to get peddled by 'analysts' that literally don't know what they're talking about.

 

Zaitsev plays harder minutes - with 44% ozone starts (compared to Gardiner's 57%) - against stronger quality opponents than Gardiner, produces more than Gardiner does, and yet  apparently Gardiner according to Hero Charts and cherry-picked corsi is a legit #1D, and if he scored 10 more points would be a top 10 D in the league.  

'WOWeee' is right.  

So using that logic if Gardiner is a "legit #1" then Granlund is a legit top six forward. That's how it goes right?

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14 hours ago, Warhippy said:

I still say Nylander and a pick for tanev is their better option, but if they want to cough up more for forwards be my guest.  Cannot see how they'd be interested in throwing them Nylander and a 1st and a prospect for Landeskog when it's more of a sidewyas move for them where as a guy like Tanev pays almost immediate dividends

 

Although Duchene could be highly attractive to them too

 

But what do I know, I am speaking from a nucks stand point and as always the moment Toronto is looking potentially playoff bound they're interested in EVERYONE

 

Looks like Toronto needs more size up front and already has enough small skilled play with Marner. 

 

Nylander is the natural choice to trade.   I could see a Landeskog for Nylander trade.  Lateral move that gives Toronto a better playoff team.  

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15 hours ago, Warhippy said:

I think you're undervaluing Tanev, a top 10 defensive dman in the league with multiple experiences playing for Babcock who is 27 years old under a beauty contract and would almost immediately become their top RHD as well as being a Toronto native.  He might not pot a ton of points but would prevent a bunch of goals against.

 

A smallish 1 dimensional c/w who has already been buried on the 4th line a few times this season is not worth a top 4 or better D man.  Sure he's putting up points but he's not preventing them either.

 

Enter Tan Man.  The better player return in a trade almost always sides with the team giving up the defence

Teams are mostly looking for puck moving defenseman and will pay the premium.  You can find a defensive defenseman anywhere, they are easier to get.   Yes, maybe Tanev is one of the best at his job, but still I doubt he could fetch a prospect like Nylander.   The Leafs could get a defensive dman, not as good as Tanev, but for way way cheaper (if the price is Nylander and a pick).

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12 hours ago, oldnews said:

Sorry but this stuff is good for a laugh, but hard to take seriously.

 

Gardiner's corsi isn't actually impressive at all when it's taken in context.

First, he gets the second highest ozone starts on the Leafs blueline - only the rookie Carrick gets higher, whom he primarily plays with.

Second, he plays against net negative possession opponents.

 

In other words, he's sheltered, still.

 

And the hero chart stuff is sheer nonsense when you look at the fact that the type of deployment guys like Polak or Zaitsev get.

 

Gardiner isn't the best defenseman on the Leafs - not even close - let alone top 30 in the NHL, which is utterly absurd.

 

These metrics are highly misleading and unfortunately continue to get peddled by 'analysts' that literally don't know what they're talking about.

 

Zaitsev plays harder minutes - with 44% ozone starts (compared to Gardiner's 57%) - against stronger quality opponents than Gardiner, produces more than Gardiner does, and yet  apparently Gardiner according to Hero Charts and cherry-picked corsi is a legit #1D, and if he scored 10 more points would be a top 10 D in the league.  

'WOWeee' is right.  

Advanced stats > +/- right? 

 

Actually they are both the same, if not taken in full context. That's why I chuckle at advanced stats, because it seems a lot of work, and doesn't usually pass the eyeball test. 

Hockey is not like baseball, which seems tailor made for stats. The game is too fluid, and too fast. 

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16 hours ago, oldnews said:

Sorry but this stuff is good for a laugh, but hard to take seriously.

 

Gardiner's corsi isn't actually impressive at all when it's taken in context.

First, he gets the second highest ozone starts on the Leafs blueline - only the rookie Carrick gets higher, whom he primarily plays with.

Second, he plays against net negative possession opponents.

 

In other words, he's sheltered, still.

 

And the hero chart stuff is sheer nonsense when you look at the fact that the type of deployment guys like Polak or Zaitsev get.

 

Gardiner isn't the best defenseman on the Leafs - not even close - let alone top 30 in the NHL, which is utterly absurd.

 

These metrics are highly misleading and unfortunately continue to get peddled by 'analysts' that literally don't know what they're talking about.

 

Zaitsev plays harder minutes - with 44% ozone starts (compared to Gardiner's 57%) - against stronger quality opponents than Gardiner, produces more than Gardiner does, and yet  apparently Gardiner according to Hero Charts and cherry-picked corsi is a legit #1D, and if he scored 10 more points would be a top 10 D in the league.  

'WOWeee' is right.  

My eye test says gardiner struggles, a lot, on the defensive side of the puck.

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13 hours ago, messier's_elbow said:

I like Nylander, but straight up for Tanev is a no. Tanev is our anchor. Why would Toronto want more forwards? They need D as badly as we need forwards. 

I agree.......I've been on the trade Tanev bus for a cpl seasons now, but not in a straight up deal for an unproven fwd.

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