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[Discussion] "Quality over Quantity"


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14 hours ago, HerrDrFunk said:

Gotta bitch 'bout something, right?

Are you a cheerleader of being 28th in the league? Or doing the "they can't be wrong because they said so" kind of guy?

 

Don't you think Quality is a good thing? Virtually any human being can play in the NHL, even if it standing there for 5 seconds, but finding or getting a first line NHL player is different. If you won't do what is best for the franchise when franchise players are in the draft then you have to trade for them from a position of weakness and need, so you have to over pay.

 

There is no need to wait until they go to FA.

Time is an enemy. It will empty the arena quickly and then there will be the "for a quarter this franchise can be moved" the price of a pay phone call.

 

3 years and one legitimate top six young player, Horvat.

 

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3 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Are you a cheerleader of being 28th in the league? Or doing the "they can't be wrong because they said so" kind of guy?

 

Don't you think Quality is a good thing? Virtually any human being can play in the NHL, even if it standing there for 5 seconds, but finding or getting a first line NHL player is different. If you won't do what is best for the franchise when franchise players are in the draft then you have to trade for them from a position of weakness and need, so you have to over pay.

 

There is no need to wait until they go to FA.

Time is an enemy. It will empty the arena quickly and then there will be the "for a quarter this franchise can be moved" the price of a pay phone call.

 

3 years and one legitimate top six young player, Horvat.

 

Yeah, screw Baertschi and Granlund. Those plugs! :picard:

 

I stand by my first response. It's pretty clear that you just want to complain about something. Benning sold off two vets and got back, by all accounts, a generous return on them; so you're whining because we don't have a Matthews or McDavid in our system. Never mind that we're also free falling in the standings right now and have a shot at another high pick this year too.

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1 hour ago, TheGuardian_ said:

So my source is the fact that the biggest need of this team has not been addressed, a need any idiot can see coming.

Just because a deal didn't get done, doesn't mean they weren't attempted.  Being an NHL GM isn't as easy as being one in a video game or managing a fantasy team.

 

You have to be willing to part with players that the other teams are looking to add, all while not being fleeced by the opposing GM.  No GM can just snap their fingers and get the exact deal they want, when they want it.  Mike Milbury used to make lots of deals.  Is that what you're looking for?

 

Personally, I think Benning has been addressing those needs.  It's just that it will take years before we see that work pay off.  It's not Eriksson, Vrbata or Sutter as you suggested.  Those are interim measures.  It's all the young guys.  It's Horvat, Boeser, Demko, Hutton, Stecher, Tryamkin, Dahlen, Goldobin, Virtanen, etc.  Sure, they aren't all going to work out, but they are on the right path.

 

You mention the Sedins not having played in the minors, you might forget, but for their early years it was often suggested that's exactly where they should have been.  Many people said that they would top out as third line or second line at best.  Luckily, they were all wrong.  The Sedins are future Hall of Famers, and those don't exactly grow on trees.

 

You sound like someone that wants the team to win right now.  It's just not going to happen.  They need to rebuild slowly and allow these kids to develop.  If they keep on the course they are on, I predict this team will be contenders in the next five to seven years.  Which, is about the same amount of time it took for the Sedins to become the leaders we know now.

 

Just because you can't see the plan, doesn't mean there isn't one.

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4 hours ago, goalie13 said:

Just because a deal didn't get done, doesn't mean they weren't attempted.  Being an NHL GM isn't as easy as being one in a video game or managing a fantasy team.

 

You have to be willing to part with players that the other teams are looking to add, all while not being fleeced by the opposing GM.  No GM can just snap their fingers and get the exact deal they want, when they want it.  Mike Milbury used to make lots of deals.  Is that what you're looking for?

 

Personally, I think Benning has been addressing those needs.  It's just that it will take years before we see that work pay off.  It's not Eriksson, Vrbata or Sutter as you suggested.  Those are interim measures.  It's all the young guys.  It's Horvat, Boeser, Demko, Hutton, Stecher, Tryamkin, Dahlen, Goldobin, Virtanen, etc.  Sure, they aren't all going to work out, but they are on the right path.

 

You mention the Sedins not having played in the minors, you might forget, but for their early years it was often suggested that's exactly where they should have been.  Many people said that they would top out as third line or second line at best.  Luckily, they were all wrong.  The Sedins are future Hall of Famers, and those don't exactly grow on trees.

 

You sound like someone that wants the team to win right now.  It's just not going to happen.  They need to rebuild slowly and allow these kids to develop.  If they keep on the course they are on, I predict this team will be contenders in the next five to seven years.  Which, is about the same amount of time it took for the Sedins to become the leaders we know now.

 

Just because you can't see the plan, doesn't mean there isn't one.

If they want a deal done, it gets done. The targeted player has to be able to fill the role. I have never played a hockey video game, I am into strategy games like chess, games that take planning.

 

You have to weigh the NEED of the team you are running and then judge if the player you target is worth a quality asset or if it will take a quantity of prospects. This team NEEDS goal scorers and 1st line players, very hard to get and very hard not to have the perception of being fleeced. For the Canucks, because their NEED is magnified with the decline of the Sedins over payment is the necessity, it takes the will of the management to get the deal done. IMO there is ONE player the team should go all in for and that is Jesse Puijujarvi, Edmonton is blessed with 6 to 8 under 26 high level players right now. Their need is cap relief (Andrew Ference), defence (Tanev, OJ, Stecher, Hutton) and goaltending (Markstrom, Demko) and maybe a forward prospect (Virtanen, Boeser). This kid, JP, was ranked up there with Mathews and Laine, he is not playing with Edmonton because they are already filled in the spots available to him. He can't play Kassian or Maroon's role, Eberle and RNH are considered veterans now, they won't sit Draisitl and they won't want to go backwards. So he just might be available and the longer the Nucks wait, the more expensive it gets. But that is if the Nucks are interested at all in improving the team faster than starting the true rebuild after next year.

 

Not seeing a plan, I am not seeing them do anything to actively and aggressively pursue replacing the Sedins. Put together any three names from above and as you champion Benning was able to get those types of players in 2 years, so replacing them is much easier than hoping for a minor miracle. 

 

So far any "plan" appears to be take the easiest and least controversial route, don't take any chances. It is not like this team is suddenly a cup contender next year.

You know what this group looks like, Edmonton Oilers before they fired the entire management staff, sit back, draft and fail, that group would never have the gohanas to trade Hall for Larsson., just like this group apparently refuses to do what is needed.

 

I have seen this movie before and I want to speed up the process not make it last as long as possible, it has already been going on for 3 years, I don's want to see another 7 years of this.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On ‎3‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 10:49 AM, goalie13 said:

You sound like someone that wants the team to win right now.  It's just not going to happen.  They need to rebuild slowly and allow these kids to develop.  If they keep on the course they are on, I predict this team will be contenders in the next five to seven years.  Which, is about the same amount of time it took for the Sedins to become the leaders we know now.

Why? Why do they need to rebuild slowly?

What about RFA's? Forget that because this team HAS allow these kids from other franchises to develop? The kids that other franchises decided were not good enough for their own team's?

 

 

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8 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

The kids that other franchises decided were not good enough for their own team's?

Guarantee that Calgary wouldn't pull the trigger on the Baertschi or Granlund deals had they known what kind of impact they would be able to make with us.

 

I suppose trading for Naslund was a mistake too, seeing as how he wasn't good enough for the Pens.

 

I suppose we should be mocking the Bruins for taking that Cam Neely guy off of our hands too, seeing as how he wasn't good enough for our team.

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20 minutes ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Guarantee that Calgary wouldn't pull the trigger on the Baertschi or Granlund deals had they known what kind of impact they would be able to make with us.

 

I suppose trading for Naslund was a mistake too, seeing as how he wasn't good enough for the Pens.

 

I suppose we should be mocking the Bruins for taking that Cam Neely guy off of our hands too, seeing as how he wasn't good enough for our team.

Look at the Naslund trade in context, they already had Jagr, Francis, Nedved and Lemeiux, some times too many Jane's on a team is bad, hence they wanted a Tarzan, unfortunately for them Stojanov had busted up shoulders. The Pens finished the year as the highest scoring team in the league, by a mile. They figured they needed some toughness.

 

Totally different from the out of the playoffs Flames, they were looking for skill players that had some size and grit and they had players in the NHL better than those they jettisoned.

 

Neely......I ended up on the radio for 1/2 hour, unhappy. Very bad trade, now I am looking for a deal like that for the Canucks and up to the Gretzky deal no one would have thought that kind of trade could happen. And don't even attempt to compare Virtanen to Neely or even Bertuzzi, apples and oranges.

 

Impact players with this group? Really? Again, just because a guy laces up the skates on this team doesn't mean he is that good. You think ALL these players were missed by the 150 or so scouts or something?

 

The title says Quality over Quantity, you appear to be inferring that this should be a better team now simply because there are so many young players.

 

Apart from the usual trolls, whose claim to fame is they can type This never was meant to be a negative type of thread, just that having lots of prospects doesn't mean "good team" and this team needs to go after the quality prospects from other teams. I'd like to see what a Forsling and two second round draft picks could get?

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On 3/1/2017 at 6:23 PM, TheGuardian_ said:

It is easy to fool many people by saying look at how many cars we have. Look at how many diamonds we have. Look at how many prospects we have.

 

The cars are all Lada's - offering basic comfort and manoeuvrability just enough to get from A to B.

The diamonds are all good for nothing but cutting, no gems.

The prospects are mostly quite ordinary, no McDavids, Mathews, Laines, Duchenes, Huberdeau or even Horvats, Eberles, RNHs or Forsbergs in the bunch.

 

Having lots is okay and necessary when estimating talent level is difficult, have lots and a few will be NHL players, but not most of them, sure they get a cup of coffee but not scoring roles. The Marlies an AHL team loaded with prospects and were a power house for years but the Maple Laffs were $&!#ty, but they had lots of prospects.

 

In not going after players or initiating trades, waiting for other teams to approach the Nucks this management group is doing less than half their job.

 

Face the facts, this team is destined to be at the bottom, so take assets that still have value and target players that will more than fill a need. Draft picks 1 through 4 make the NHL 85% of the time, and usually are premier players. Gretzky was traded so if enough is offered then any deal can be done.

 

I know the answer fans here would give but, Horvat and a 1rst for McDavid, Laine, Mathews, Eichel would any do that? And if you say no then you are just a fanatic and aren't interested seeing a winning team or are just trolling.

 

Getting players from the UFA pool hasn't worked here, it just cost tons of money and the team is worse than before.

 

The young players are learning how to win without getting their knickers in a knot, "don't worry, be happy", this is a losing environment period, if they are adjusting to it then that is a bad thing, a bad thing. Acceptance of losing should not be tolerated. The Sedins are just running out the clock now.

 

The fans now think Grandd, Baertschi, Menga, Chabot even Sutter, Sutter is a third line center. 

9

Don't sweat the haters,

 

I don't know how they do it but they have this amazing ability to create a world in their heads where the facts of the world we share don't exist,

 

They ignore a mountain of evidence saying things are one way, then they will indulge in utter fantasy  and tell you it proves that things are in fact the other., 

 

Then remember the Canucks do pay some people to post the company line here as well

 

But you are correct, after watching the team for a while you begin to notice the self-destructive patterns that it engages in regardlessness of who is in charge, it's very strange but from the owner to the lowliest fan this market is infected with a "loser" mentality, so much so that when you recommend changing it, people get really upset. For instance everything you said is 100% truth yet I see a mountain of negs for the post, Vancouver is a weird...and compared to other places I've lived, kind of a dark place, there is definitely some weird stuff in the collective unconscious of this town

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On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 5:47 PM, terrible.dee said:

But you are correct, after watching the team for a while you begin to notice the self-destructive patterns that it engages in regardlessness of who is in charge

Be very careful ever expressing that idea, the "gang" in here will start posting you need a tin foil hat. Even if the commissioner testified under oath in court.

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On 2017-03-13 at 5:47 PM, terrible.dee said:

Don't sweat the haters,

 

I don't know how they do it but they have this amazing ability to create a world in their heads where the facts of the world we share don't exist,

 

They ignore a mountain of evidence saying things are one way, then they will indulge in utter fantasy  and tell you it proves that things are in fact the other., 

 

Then remember the Canucks do pay some people to post the company line here as well

 

But you are correct, after watching the team for a while you begin to notice the self-destructive patterns that it engages in regardlessness of who is in charge, it's very strange but from the owner to the lowliest fan this market is infected with a "loser" mentality, so much so that when you recommend changing it, people get really upset. For instance everything you said is 100% truth yet I see a mountain of negs for the post, Vancouver is a weird...and compared to other places I've lived, kind of a dark place, there is definitely some weird stuff in the collective unconscious of this town

Seriously?

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On 3/2/2017 at 4:11 PM, TheGuardian_ said:

If they want a deal done, it gets done. The targeted player has to be able to fill the role. I have never played a hockey video game, I am into strategy games like chess, games that take planning.

 

You have to weigh the NEED of the team you are running and then judge if the player you target is worth a quality asset or if it will take a quantity of prospects. This team NEEDS goal scorers and 1st line players, very hard to get and very hard not to have the perception of being fleeced. For the Canucks, because their NEED is magnified with the decline of the Sedins over payment is the necessity, it takes the will of the management to get the deal done. IMO there is ONE player the team should go all in for and that is Jesse Puijujarvi, Edmonton is blessed with 6 to 8 under 26 high level players right now. Their need is cap relief (Andrew Ference), defence (Tanev, OJ, Stecher, Hutton) and goaltending (Markstrom, Demko) and maybe a forward prospect (Virtanen, Boeser). This kid, JP, was ranked up there with Mathews and Laine, he is not playing with Edmonton because they are already filled in the spots available to him. He can't play Kassian or Maroon's role, Eberle and RNH are considered veterans now, they won't sit Draisitl and they won't want to go backwards. So he just might be available and the longer the Nucks wait, the more expensive it gets. But that is if the Nucks are interested at all in improving the team faster than starting the true rebuild after next year.

 

Not seeing a plan, I am not seeing them do anything to actively and aggressively pursue replacing the Sedins. Put together any three names from above and as you champion Benning was able to get those types of players in 2 years, so replacing them is much easier than hoping for a minor miracle. 

 

So far any "plan" appears to be take the easiest and least controversial route, don't take any chances. It is not like this team is suddenly a cup contender next year.

You know what this group looks like, Edmonton Oilers before they fired the entire management staff, sit back, draft and fail, that group would never have the gohanas to trade Hall for Larsson., just like this group apparently refuses to do what is needed.

 

I have seen this movie before and I want to speed up the process not make it last as long as possible, it has already been going on for 3 years, I don's want to see another 7 years of this.

 

This is the KEY statement for me. I have been a Sedin supporter for years. They have been fantastic for this team and have provided some much needed leadership over their tenure here. Having said that, I will admit that they are rapidly approaching their "best before" date as top 3 players. The need for suitable replacements has been growing for some time and I hope we can accomplish this to some extent in the upcoming draft. Now, leaving aside their NTC at the moment, the next biggest issue with trading them is their Cap Hit. Very few teams in this league can afford to take on $14 million in salary in 2 players. Those that can are either already set for the playoffs, or are so far out of contention that they would not even be considered by the Sedin's. It is the Luongo situation all over again and look how long that trade took to get a done. A full YEAR from the time the rumours started that he was being shopped. He had a NTC and would only agree to go one team. I do not believe the Sedin's would restrict the Canucks like that, but understand that if they agreed to waive, it would be to a CONTENDER. 

 

I am content with what GMJB was able to accomplish at this year's deadline. We got far more for Burrows and Hansen than anyone of us was realistically expecting. I have faith that we will continue to draft well and we will see where things lie going into training camp. I would be happy to see us holding off on signing any UFAs this summer so we can give some quality ice time to our young guys that are ready to make the jump. As for trades, unless an amazing deal comes along I would say we should hold firm until we have assessed what we have in Boesser, Dahlen and the other young forwards who may be ready to crack Vancouver's lineup. The future is looking much brighter than it did even a year ago. Of course more work needs to be done, but I am confident that we will get there

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Just now, oldnews said:

bumping this junk is trolling in itself.

 

when a thread is two weeks old, barely into it's second page and half the posts are the OP's, it's safe to say that no one else gives a crap.

I see you haven't dealt with the moderators much have you? They lock out any topic if the subject is already in the forum, hence bumping. At the time of the post I might have been early in any assessment I posted but it becomes more relevant later when more posters start recognizing that the topic is pertinent.

 

The post was being answered over the last 24 hours.

 

Your post and the previous one ARE trolling as defined by the forum rules.

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We really need to acquire a top 6 center under 23 yrs old. Hoping to get top 2 in draft prob isn't realistic

 

Realize it isn't easy...and will prob have to overpay, but it is essential at this point.

 

Names you hear in here ..

 

RNH

Reinhart

Duschene...feel is too old to be a co #1 w/Bo.

 

Would trade any of our Dmen in a package..would even move this years #1 for the right deal.

 

A guy like Reinhart all of sudden makes the future a little brighter.

 

Edler or Tanev , our # 1 and any of our W's for a true #1.

quantity for elite quality

 

Feel we can afford to lose any of our D and be ok.

As well as any of our group of W's for the right player.

 

What would a package like this return ?

 

 

 

Sutter(be a good #3 shut down in Edm) and Tanev or Edler for RNH might even be ok this off season.

 

Think McDavid ,Draisatl and Sutter would be a pretty good trio.

 

good chunk of $$ going each way...

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One other thing I have noticed is size, the players the Nucks have been signing or trading for are all rather petite by NHL standards, maybe that is one reason they are being moved or are available. Other teams are thinking playoffs and don't believe these players offer enough to offset their diminutive size. That these players might disappear in the playoffs.

True you need these "Janes'" to get to the playoffs but it is the "Tarzans'" that carry a lot of the load in the rough going with lax penalty calls in the quest for the cup.

 

What's with the last couple of TDL deals? Do these guys ever play? Or are they being saved to sell hope and tickets for next year? Already they are at the point of "not enough games to judge" their quality.

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