[PGT] Canucks @ Oilers

[Standing_Tall#37]

7 minutes ago, Zoolander said:

Thanks for this, I actually lol'd in the library

No need to thank me, it's willies cold cold heart that megna has somehow found his way in to...

 

 

 

 

 

 hehe this is their song 

 

[Vinny in Vancouver]

4 hours ago, Smashian Kassian said:

I'm with you on that.

 

I know he had his problems but I just never liked us giving up on him. He clearly had a useful NHL game whether it was going to be a solid T6 player or not. I guess it is what it is though, perhaps he needed the change to improve his situation. 

From what I understand, Kassian was slowly killing himself in Vancouver with his addictions. For both his and the team's good, he needed to be moved.

[D.B Cooper]

7 minutes ago, khay said:

They are better than us sure but other than McDavid, the other types of players, the Eberle's Larsen's and Nugent-Hopkins' are attainable through the draft or UFA signing. 

 

Without McDavid, they are nothing and it's been proven.

If it is so easy, why don't we have any?

 

i hate to sit here and defend the oilers, because I was raised to hate them.  

But only a fool would try to argue against the fact that the Oilers are a much better team than us right now, and will be for some time. 

It sucks, but it is reality.  

[Vinny in Vancouver]

2 hours ago, Jam126 said:

Oilers fans hate Nuge and Eberle and Larsson is basically a more physical Tanev with more offensive upside. Only gamebreaker is McDavid.

If Larsson's "a more physical Tanev with more offensive upside", I need to watch him more as that sounds like a potential Norris candidate right there. Good for the Oilers for trading Hall for him.

[riffraff]

2 hours ago, Jam126 said:

Oilers fans hate Nuge and Eberle and Larsson is basically a more physical Tanev with more offensive upside. Only gamebreaker is McDavid.

So basically a far better defenseman.

[riffraff]

2 hours ago, darkpoet said:

Look how quickly Boucher gets this shot off and how much he gets on it. CLANK !

Too bad he didn't score there. Probably would have really cheesed Willie off.

Nobody on our roster can shoot like this. Love it.

[darkpoet]

1 minute ago, riffraff said:

Nobody on our roster can shoot like this. Love it.

When I first saw it I had to look a few times because it seemed like it was sped up, but it's in real time.
 
I hope this kid takes the off-season seriously and comes to camp ripped, because it sounds like his "fitness level" is the only reason being used to keep him out of the top six. 

He's also a heckuva passer IMO
 

[theilluminati]

17 hours ago, drdeath said:

They're very much a playoff team because our division is horrible. 

That being said they're going to get completely ragdolled as soon as they play a California team with California officiating.

Decent chance that 5 Pacific teams make the playoffs this year so what the hell are you talking about..?? There are only 2 horrible teams in the Pacific and you cheer for one of them so give your head a shake...

[CeeBee51]

4 minutes ago, darkpoet said:

When I first saw it I had to look a few times because it seemed like it was sped up, but it's in real time.
 
I hope this kid takes the off-season seriously and comes to camp ripped, because it sounds like his "fitness level" is the only reason being used to keep him out of the top six. 

He's also a heckuva passer IMO
 

I hope he takes skating lessons from Bo's skating coach.

[darkpoet]

8 minutes ago, CeeBee51 said:

I hope he takes skating lessons from Bo's skating coach.

Good feature if you haven't seen it
 

 

[canuck2288]

2 hours ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

Doesn't matter.  Its all about a 200' game.  Kessel, Ovechkin and P Kane would not get ice time under Willie.

And that right there is the biggest issue with Willie

 

its not about one size fits all, you coach to player strengths 

[DIBdaQUIB]

1 hour ago, Joe_Kerr said:

^^^How can you reply in such depth to such a ridiculous statement.... Congratulations you played yourself

She/He replied because unlike some, who think it clever to post short, dismissive and self-aggrandizing statements, they are trying to engage in meaningful dialogue by arguing theirs position.

 

Whether I agree with him/her or not, I appreciate the effort made to discuss the topic.

 

[khay]

56 minutes ago, drummerboy said:

If it is so easy, why don't we have any?

 

i hate to sit here and defend the oilers, because I was raised to hate them.  

But only a fool would try to argue against the fact that the Oilers are a much better team than us right now, and will be for some time. 

It sucks, but it is reality.  

Why don't we have them? How many times did we pick in the top 5 in the last say, 7 years?

 

Canucks: 2016.

Oilers: 2016, 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2011.

 

Despite all those picks, you take Connor McDavid out from that line up and that team is not clearly better than we are. A bit better but not by a large margin.

 

Are the Oilers better team than we are now? YES. No one is arguing about that. But the reason why they are better is just one player. One freaking single player changed everything for that team. And I'm just saying, I don't want the Oilers roster, a roster full of players known for not being good enough themselves to get it done. I just want McDavid, a player who singlehandedly changed the outlook of an entire franchise. 

 

[DIBdaQUIB]

1 hour ago, canuckleheads fan said:

So you're suggesting Boucher=Ovechkin, Kessel or P Kane?  Give your head a shake!  What WD wants from the kids is a solid 200 foot game, because that's the way the game is played these days.  It's about work ethic, and drive!  If the above mentioned superstars had played for WD as rookies, yes he would have expected them to be more defensively responsible, however, as they earned their stripes on offense they likely they would have gotten some slack on defense much the way the twins have. 

 

I don't recall exactly what was going on with each of the above mentioned stars' teams as they came into the league, but none were likely as bad as the Canucks, who need EVERYBODY to back check, because if they don't they get scored on, and they don't the firepower to respond.  Sorry Boucher will be lucky if he EVER hits 20 goals, which is not enough offense to forgive a lackluster back check.  I know Chicago had a couple of Norris caliber defensemen, and were well ahead of us on the rebuild.  Kane was obviously a special player from the start and has been a + in all but three seasons.  How many cups has Washington won while Ovi has been there?  In spite of his usually being a + player, maybe they would have won one by now if Ovi was a more determined back checker and lead by example.  Seems like Kessel only saw real win column success once he got to Pittsburgh, where the best player in hockey is a 200 foot player.  his last year in Toronto, Kessel scored 61 points and was -34.  He has been a minus player in 8 of his 11 NHL seasons, so yeah maybe he should worry more about back checking too.

 

Boucher is a terribly slow skater, with one talent, a quick release.  He is currently too slow to fit on any but the 4th line in Vancouver.  He was obviously too slow to play for NJ, who is no better than the Canucks.  He was also too slow to play for Nashville.  Neither NJ nor Nashville are loaded with talent, yet Boucher could not stick.  He's a 4th round pick, #99 overall.  CDC needs to stop looking at some of these guys like they're the answer to our problems.  He was 99th for a reason.  He's been waived twice this year for a reason.  It might be his commitment to being in shape, but it's likely his speed.  I prefer we give the time to Cramarossa and Chaput.  I thought Cramarossa showed some good speed, and brings an edge.  He'll be a good 4th liner next year.  Chaput is a decent skater who can win faceoffs.  He is also a perfect 4th liner.  Boucher is more of a press box guy.

 

When Bo came into the league, he was forecast as a likely 3C.  Certainly nobody was forecasting that he'd become the beast that he has.  Willie has turned him into a 1C (probably 2C on a good team).  The rest of the young players he's had to work with were either drafted much lower or cast offs.  Those players get no slack, and are expected to work for their ice time.  Look at what Granlund did.  He went into the summer knowing WD's expectations.  He worked his tail off, and came to camp ready to compete.  He hasn't looked back.  Jake also went into the summer knowing what the expectations were, he was lazy, allowed himself to get fat, and EARNED a ticked to Utica. 

 

Are you saying that a different coach would have put up with Jake being lazy, playing shift after shift like he was on a Sunday skate, coming to camp way out of shape, because he has some offensive potential?  WD has yet to work with a top 3 pick, so maybe reserve your judgement until you see what he does.

Thanks for putting in so much effort to share your thoughts.

 

What I am suggesting is, I do not believe in a one-size-fits-all approach to developing players or deploying them.  I believe WD has had success throughout his career with an approach to coaching that is heavy on rolling 4 lines where everyone plays a 200' game but I slight on matching and a strategic approach.  WHile this has served him well, I do not believe it is enough at the NHL level where the better coaches take advantage of match ups and situations to get an edge.  Case in point is WD"s decision to let the Sedin line play against Kesler's line on home ice.  Kesler dominated the twins all game and afterward, WD's response was that he wasn't aware of how Kesler had been so effective against them in the past.  A coach needs to know these things or what exactly is ho doing?

The PP is another glaring area where WD has been unable/unwilling to make adjustments despite the fact that it has been declining steadily for three years and is largely responsible for the team's inability to generate sufficient goals to be competitive.

 

I believe different players and different skill sets require different approaches.  I used Kessel, Ovy and Kane as examples because early in their careers, they were defensive liabilities but were still instrumental in their teams' success due to  their ability to generate offense.  A more recent example would be Laine who has been tasked with only playing offense for now with the understanding he will learn the "200' game" in time.

 

The Nucks struggle horribly to generate offense and to finish.  To take players who have made it to the big league because of their offensive talent and make them toil to develop a full 200' game before they will be "gifted" with a role more fitted to their skill set is IMO, short-sighted and can lead to a loss of confidence and a longer development path.

 

It is quite possible that Ovy would have bolted back to the KHL if he was deployed in a manner WD seems to use with his charges.   Boucher is a sniper.  Yes, he is not up to shape and needs to develop a more rounded game but...he is capable of generating quality chances and putting up points.  At this point in a lost season, what is risked by putting him out in a top 6 position to see just how much offense he can generate?  The rest of the issues can be addressed later.  What point is there in putting older players with far less offensive talent out in the top 6 to try and remain competitive in these last few games while sitting players that could be key players going forward?

 

I never mentioned Jake but feel he is probably where he needs to be.   He needs to re-establish his game and gain confidence and consistency.  Still...when he first got up here, he was effective because he skated fast, hit hard and shot the puck.  Obviously, it takes more than that to stay with the big club.  As he was "coached" to be more responsible, he looked like a kid who was confused and lost on the ice. Afraid to over-commit and terrified of getting caught on the wrong side of the puck.  His defensive numbers were excellent but in learning the defensive side of the game, he ceased to be the fast, hard-hitting shooter the team needed.  I hope he can pull it all together and that we see him up here soon.

 

Whether certain teams would have done better if their offensive stars were better defensively is a totally subjective topic.  There are far too many extenuating circumstances for anyone to say.  What can be said is that the Nucks are an offensively challenged team that is in desperate need of finishers if they ever hope to keep up with the Calgary and Edmonton teams. 

 

If WD sticks to what has been his strategy of all players earning their top 6 ice time by first showing they can play like a bottom 6 checker, I have doubts we will see some of our offensively gifted players achieve the heights they otherwise could have.

 

 

[theilluminati]

1 hour ago, khay said:

They are better than us sure but other than McDavid, the other types of players, the Eberle's Larsen's and Nugent-Hopkins' are attainable through the draft or UFA signing. 

 

Without McDavid, they are nothing and it's been proven.

And where exactly would the Canucks be without Bo this season..? Somewhere around 45-50pts and just ahead of the Avalanche who are having one of the worst seasons in the salary cap era...

[khay]

33 minutes ago, theilluminati said:

And where exactly would the Canucks be without Bo this season..? Somewhere around 45-50pts and just ahead of the Avalanche who are having one of the worst seasons in the salary cap era...

Are you comparing Bo to McDavid?  You take Bo out, and the Canucks are still a bad team. You take McDavid out and Edmonton goes from good team to a mediocre team. Nuge and Eberle (and Hall, who is no longer there) showed that they cannot get it done by themselves. In other words, they are supplementary players. 

 

This is basically Bo's first year as the leader. We will see if Bo can get it done or if he will be like Nuge and Eberle. I have a feeling that Bo isn't like those two but at the same time, he ain't McDavid.

 

 

[canuckleheads fan]

38 minutes ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

Thanks for putting in so much effort to share your thoughts.

 

What I am suggesting is, I do not believe in a one-size-fits-all approach to developing players or deploying them.  I believe WD has had success throughout his career with an approach to coaching that is heavy on rolling 4 lines where everyone plays a 200' game but I slight on matching and a strategic approach.  WHile this has served him well, I do not believe it is enough at the NHL level where the better coaches take advantage of match ups and situations to get an edge.  Case in point is WD"s decision to let the Sedin line play against Kesler's line on home ice.  Kesler dominated the twins all game and afterward, WD's response was that he wasn't aware of how Kesler had been so effective against them in the past.  A coach needs to know these things or what exactly is ho doing?

The PP is another glaring area where WD has been unable/unwilling to make adjustments despite the fact that it has been declining steadily for three years and is largely responsible for the team's inability to generate sufficient goals to be competitive.

 

I believe different players and different skill sets require different approaches.  I used Kessel, Ovy and Kane as examples because early in their careers, they were defensive liabilities but were still instrumental in their teams' success due to  their ability to generate offense.  A more recent example would be Laine who has been tasked with only playing offense for now with the understanding he will learn the "200' game" in time.

 

The Nucks struggle horribly to generate offense and to finish.  To take players who have made it to the big league because of their offensive talent and make them toil to develop a full 200' game before they will be "gifted" with a role more fitted to their skill set is IMO, short-sighted and can lead to a loss of confidence and a longer development path.

 

It is quite possible that Ovy would have bolted back to the KHL if he was deployed in a manner WD seems to use with his charges.   Boucher is a sniper.  Yes, he is not up to shape and needs to develop a more rounded game but...he is capable of generating quality chances and putting up points.  At this point in a lost season, what is risked by putting him out in a top 6 position to see just how much offense he can generate?  The rest of the issues can be addressed later.  What point is there in putting older players with far less offensive talent out in the top 6 to try and remain competitive in these last few games while sitting players that could be key players going forward?

 

I never mentioned Jake but feel he is probably where he needs to be.   He needs to re-establish his game and gain confidence and consistency.  Still...when he first got up here, he was effective because he skated fast, hit hard and shot the puck.  Obviously, it takes more than that to stay with the big club.  As he was "coached" to be more responsible, he looked like a kid who was confused and lost on the ice. Afraid to over-commit and terrified of getting caught on the wrong side of the puck.  His defensive numbers were excellent but in learning the defensive side of the game, he ceased to be the fast, hard-hitting shooter the team needed.  I hope he can pull it all together and that we see him up here soon.

 

Whether certain teams would have done better if their offensive stars were better defensively is a totally subjective topic.  There are far too many extenuating circumstances for anyone to say.  What can be said is that the Nucks are an offensively challenged team that is in desperate need of finishers if they ever hope to keep up with the Calgary and Edmonton teams. 

 

If WD sticks to what has been his strategy of all players earning their top 6 ice time by first showing they can play like a bottom 6 checker, I have doubts we will see some of our offensively gifted players achieve the heights they otherwise could have.

 

 

We don't currently have any what I would consider "offensively gifted" players, hence the need to play a 200 foot game. Bo is the team's top scorer, he was not offensively gifted in Jr, and is not so now. He is a hard-working player who scores most of his goals from the dirty areas. Baer and Granlund are also not what I would call offensively gifted, they earn their points with hard work and good puck sense.

 

Boucher is obviously not in that category either, it's not a term you use for a 99th overall pick. Goldoban might be offensively gifted, time will tell.

 

The problem is that players who are defensive liabilities are usually responsible for more goals against than they are goals for. Winning teams play a responsible game up and down the lineup. JB is trying to mold this team in a similar way to the way the Bruins were built. That was a team without flash, but with 12 hard working responsible forwards. Marchand was defensively responsible before he became a sniper. Boston's best forward since the cup run has been Bergeron, who was originally seen as a checking center before his offensive game appeared. Both Bergeron and Marchand continue to be defensively responsible as they have gotten better offensively. That's what WD has been doing with Bo and the rest of our young players. This team will never run a wide open run and gun offense. Those teams are prone to cold streaks and breakdown when they lose one or two top players. The type of team JB is appears to be building is a hard-working defensively responsible Bruins type team that can beat teams that play any sort of style.

[DIBdaQUIB]

32 minutes ago, canuckleheads fan said:

We don't currently have any what I would consider "offensively gifted" players, hence the need to play a 200 foot game. Bo is the team's top scorer, he was not offensively gifted in Jr, and is not so now. He is a hard-working player who scores most of his goals from the dirty areas. Baer and Granlund are also not what I would call offensively gifted, they earn their points with hard work and good puck sense.

 

Boucher is obviously not in that category either, it's not a term you use for a 99th overall pick. Goldoban might be offensively gifted, time will tell.

 

The problem is that players who are defensive liabilities are usually responsible for more goals against than they are goals for. Winning teams play a responsible game up and down the lineup. JB is trying to mold this team in a similar way to the way the Bruins were built. That was a team without flash, but with 12 hard working responsible forwards. Marchand was defensively responsible before he became a sniper. Boston's best forward since the cup run has been Bergeron, who was originally seen as a checking center before his offensive game appeared. Both Bergeron and Marchand continue to be defensively responsible as they have gotten better offensively. That's what WD has been doing with Bo and the rest of our young players. This team will never run a wide open run and gun offense. Those teams are prone to cold streaks and breakdown when they lose one or two top players. The type of team JB is appears to be building is a hard-working defensively responsible Bruins type team that can beat teams that play any sort of style.

Offensively gifted is pretty subjective.  McDavid is Offensively gifted.  Most teams have some players who are above average in offensive ability so are "gifted" amongst their teammates.  I think Baer, Granlund, Bo show the ability to be offensive producers.  Granny is starting to show very good offensive instincts in finding the open areas, creating opportunity and in finishing his chances.  He may not be "offensively gifted" by some interpretations but he certainly shows above average offensive potential.

 Goldobin and Daylen are reported to fall into that category.  I believe Boucher displays a "gift" of a shot in its quick release, accuracy and heaviness.  I do not believe you can be successful no matter how good you are defensively unless you have offensive weapons to balance that.

 

I don't' disagree that defensive responsibility is crucial to success and that every player has to develop that to stay in this league.  I just don't agree that every player has to be developed to be a 200' defensive specialist before being given an opportunity to put their offensive talent to use.  I gave examples of players who have been tremendous offensive players who learned defense after they succeeded offensively.  Stevie Yzerman would be another.

 

Hard work is a must no matter what role a player has on the team. 

 

Again, to me I am not convinced that WD's style of demoting young players with offensive up-side who do not meet his defensive standard over  others who are reliable but never going to amount to anything more than energy guys is the proper way to develop ALL our youth. 

[coho8888]

3 hours ago, canuckleheads fan said:

So you're suggesting Boucher=Ovechkin, Kessel or P Kane?  Give your head a shake!  What WD wants from the kids is a solid 200 foot game, because that's the way the game is played these days.  It's about work ethic, and drive!  If the above mentioned superstars had played for WD as rookies, yes he would have expected them to be more defensively responsible, however, as they earned their stripes on offense they likely they would have gotten some slack on defense much the way the twins have. 

 

I don't recall exactly what was going on with each of the above mentioned stars' teams as they came into the league, but none were likely as bad as the Canucks, who need EVERYBODY to back check, because if they don't they get scored on, and they don't the firepower to respond.  Sorry Boucher will be lucky if he EVER hits 20 goals, which is not enough offense to forgive a lackluster back check.  I know Chicago had a couple of Norris caliber defensemen, and were well ahead of us on the rebuild.  Kane was obviously a special player from the start and has been a + in all but three seasons.  How many cups has Washington won while Ovi has been there?  In spite of his usually being a + player, maybe they would have won one by now if Ovi was a more determined back checker and lead by example.  Seems like Kessel only saw real win column success once he got to Pittsburgh, where the best player in hockey is a 200 foot player.  his last year in Toronto, Kessel scored 61 points and was -34.  He has been a minus player in 8 of his 11 NHL seasons, so yeah maybe he should worry more about back checking too.

 

Boucher is a terribly slow skater, with one talent, a quick release.  He is currently too slow to fit on any but the 4th line in Vancouver.  He was obviously too slow to play for NJ, who is no better than the Canucks.  He was also too slow to play for Nashville.  Neither NJ nor Nashville are loaded with talent, yet Boucher could not stick.  He's a 4th round pick, #99 overall.  CDC needs to stop looking at some of these guys like they're the answer to our problems.  He was 99th for a reason.  He's been waived twice this year for a reason.  It might be his commitment to being in shape, but it's likely his speed.  I prefer we give the time to Cramarossa and Chaput.  I thought Cramarossa showed some good speed, and brings an edge.  He'll be a good 4th liner next year.  Chaput is a decent skater who can win faceoffs.  He is also a perfect 4th liner.  Boucher is more of a press box guy.

 

When Bo came into the league, he was forecast as a likely 3C.  Certainly nobody was forecasting that he'd become the beast that he has.  Willie has turned him into a 1C (probably 2C on a good team).  The rest of the young players he's had to work with were either drafted much lower or cast offs.  Those players get no slack, and are expected to work for their ice time.  Look at what Granlund did.  He went into the summer knowing WD's expectations.  He worked his tail off, and came to camp ready to compete.  He hasn't looked back.  Jake also went into the summer knowing what the expectations were, he was lazy, allowed himself to get fat, and EARNED a ticked to Utica. 

 

Are you saying that a different coach would have put up with Jake being lazy, playing shift after shift like he was on a Sunday skate, coming to camp way out of shape, because he has some offensive potential?  WD has yet to work with a top 3 pick, so maybe reserve your judgement until you see what he does.

 

Bo forecasted as a 3C?  Now I've heard everything.  You Willie Lovers need to actually read what you are posting.  When Bo was drafted he was forecasted as a solid 2C with an outside chance at 1C.  No team in their right mind would burn a high first round pick for a 3C.  Give your head a shake.  

 

You guys give too much credit to Willie for Bo's success.  Bo's improved play is all on Bo himself.  He managed to turn one of his major shortcomings into a positive by improving his skating immensely.  Nothing to do with Willie.  Now I don't know how good Willie is as teaching the kids the x's and o's since I'm not privy to what goes on in practice.  I can only make my judgment based on what I can observe and what I see that Willie is doing with our young guys does not exactly give me comfort that he is the right man for the job.

 

There is more to player development than teaching x's and o's.  A good coach recognizes that all kids are not the same and can't be treated as such.  Very few players have the work ethic of a Bo or Megna or Chaput but they may have skills that need to be harnessed.  In order to do that, the coach needs to live with or tolerate mistakes or inconsistent play.  Willie's approach is that you need to show me that you can be defensively responsible and work like a dog before I give you a chance.  Not a good thing for a team that's in a rebuilding phase.  

 

I was very fortunate to have seasons tickets when Bure first came into the league.  I can still remember his first few shifts.  He was like a wild man skating all over the place, generating scoring chances without any regard for defence or adhering to a system.  If he did that on Willie's team, he would have been stapled to the bench or not dressed at all the next game.

 

Look, no one here thinks that Boucher is some sort of savior for this team.   He's a waiver wire pickup for gods sake.  But he does have some scoring skills which this team desperately needs.  Willie stubbornly plays his favorites instead and does not put Boucher in situations to succeed.  His attitude was like why give me this waiver wire hack and i'll play him a few minutes just to please you guys but hopes he goes away.  

 

Willie is too stubborn to change.  Coaches like he did in Junior and the minors which may have worked there but in the NHL not so much.

 

 

[ice orca]

4 hours ago, canuckleheads fan said:

I think Granlund is a lot like Kessler only better.  He's the kind of player that would succeed anywhere in the lineup.  He can snipe, he can create (something he is much better at than Kessler), and he's fantastic defensively.  If he could only improve his face offs, he'd be a classic 2C.  I wonder if there's any way we could scoop his brother from Mini, maybe our 1st this year and Tanev?

Granlund is better than Kesler? Lol.