[PGT] Canucks @ Oilers

[6string]

7 hours ago, riffraff said:

Nobody on our roster can shoot like this. Love it.

His passes are equally as quick n decisive.

[canuckleheads fan]

30 minutes ago, coho8888 said:

So because guys like Bo, Markus and Sven are doing well its all because Willie is doing a great job?  What about  Vey, Etem, Virtanen, Mccann, etc..?  Did he do a crappy job on them?  I guess you would say that its the kids fault if he's not doing well but give credit to Willie when he is? Wow talk about being biased.  I could just as easily form the opinion that these kids are doing well in spite of Willie.  I've already said why I think Bo has improved.  A case could be made that both Sven and Markus are products from another system with something to prove and are playing for their next contracts coming up soon.  As for Tryamkin, well we all know how Willie feels about him yet he's still one of our bright spots.  

No, you're the one who's biased against WD.  I'd say that if it was just Bo, yeah it's just as likely the full credit for his success goes to the kid.  But when you see Bo, Grany, Baer, Trayamkin, Hutton, Sbisa and Stecher all having good to great seasons, a lot of that success has to be credited to the coach.  You would argue Baer and Grany are products of a different system?  When Baer arrived in Vancouver his confidence had been shattered and Calgary had given up on him as a soft perimeter player.  It's why Calgary gave him away for a 2nd round pick.  WD has shaped Baer into an excellent 200 foot player who is not afraid to go to the dirty areas, and now he's seeing success.  Calgary had also given up on Grany as no more than a 3rd or 4th liner, so they traded him for a player who Vancouver management decided will likely never make an impact in the NHL.  WD has always been clear about his expectations.  Be in shape, compete hard, be defensively responsible, go to the dirty areas, earn your ice time.  Granlund trained his butt off over the summer, came back and owned training camp.  Granlund earned his ice time as a solid 200 foot player who has succeeded in every situation he's been cast, from Sedin winger, to 3rd line checking winger (where I think he was best because he helped make Sutter an offensive threat).  WD salvaged both Baer and Granlund's careers.  His tough love with Tryamkin has made him into a solid player who is ready to take the next step by adding sandpaper to his game, as WD said the other day.  Hutton has gotten steadily better, and more confident as the season has progressed.  With WD's steady hand, Sbisa has turned into our most reliable Dman.  He is a steadying force, and I'm hoping management can find a way to keep him in the expansion draft.  Finally, I think fatigue is catching up with Stecher.  I'm seeing mistakes slip into game where I didn't see them before.  It's understandable, it's his first full professional season, playing a faster game against grown men.  I think that up until the mumps outbreak, Stecher's game was improving steadily.  Since then it seems to have leveled off some.  Overall, that's an incredible record of success.   

 

Now what about Vey, Etem, Virtanen and McCann.  I liked Vey and thought that his whipping boy status was very undeserved.  Vey definitely improved under WD's coaching.  He likely would have been even better if he hadn't had all the drama going on in his personal life.  Ultimately, he's limited by his foot speed (skate training and weight training can only do so much), and I think he'll always be a fringe NHL player.  Etem was big, fast, and physical but lacked hockey IQ.  He too will always be a fringe NHLer as has been shown by bouncing around the league.  No matter how good the coach is, he can't turn every AHL prospect into a full-time NHL caliber talent.  Virtanen and McCann were just too immature, and obviously didn't take their game and their training seriously that first season.  A coach can provide structure and a path to success, but the player has to provide the drive, and face it Virtanen was lazy.  He came to camp this past fall about 20 pounds overweight.  McCann was too small, and too physically immature to be an NHL regular when he was here.  It shows you how bereft of talent this organization was that they kept him with the big team rather than sending him back for another year of JR.  Ultimately he was moved for a player who will hopefully turn out to be a better asset.  McCann isn't tearing it up in Florida, so he's obviously not flourishing under the coaching there anymore than he did here.  Also, McCann was not shy about telling people that he did not want to be a Vancouver Canuck, so there's that working against WD as well. 

[DIBdaQUIB]

42 minutes ago, canuckleheads fan said:

And again, I don't think this team really has any players who fall into your offensively talented category (aside from maybe Goldobin), so your point is moot.  Hopefully Goldobin gets back in time so that we can see him in a few games, but he's likely the only player on the NHL roster who I would consider possibly offensively gifted.

Bo would disagree with you.  He was very impressed with Boucher's talents but hey, what does he know, right? 

Goldobin does look promising but if he is going to get benched when he uses his "instincts", we won't be seeing much of him.

 

[PhillipBlunt]

43 minutes ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

Bo would disagree with you.  He was very impressed with Boucher's talents but hey, what does he know, right? 

Goldobin does look promising but if he is going to get benched when he uses his "instincts", we won't be seeing much of him.

 

Do they play a 200 ft game? Do they battle haaard? Play real good defensively?

 

[canuckleheads fan]

1 hour ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

Bo would disagree with you.  He was very impressed with Boucher's talents but hey, what does he know, right? 

Goldobin does look promising but if he is going to get benched when he uses his "instincts", we won't be seeing much of him.

 

That's just dumb. He wasn't benched for using his instincts. It was his first game with the team, he had not even had a practice. He scored a nice goal, WD decided that it was a nice positive to leave the kid with. They were ahead, still technically in the playoff race and WD was going to milk it the rest of the way. Besides that, they suffered a string of penalties and found themselves on the kill late in the second and into the 3rd. This season WD had shortened his bench in the third with a lead, and gone with players he trusts defensively. The team took both games in So Cal and all anybody could do was bitch about not using Goldobin more. Sorry,  but to WD he was an unknown commodity. Are you going to risk your coaching career on a 20 year old kid making a bad giveaway and costing the game? Of course not.

[canuckleheads fan]

1 hour ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

Bo would disagree with you.  He was very impressed with Boucher's talents but hey, what does he know, right? 

Goldobin does look promising but if he is going to get benched when he uses his "instincts", we won't be seeing much of him.

 

Bo is a young leader on this team and will find nice things to say about anybody he plays with. He's not about to say "We call him Donatello because he's as slow as a turtle."

[canuckleheads fan]

3 hours ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

You're making a lot of points but none of them have to do with my stated position.  I acknowledged a 200' game is necessary for players in the NHL.  My contention is that not all players should have to master that before being given deployment that suits their skill set.   I gave plenty of examples including rookies (Laine) that have been developed that way.  If you think there is only one way and that all players should learn the 200' game first - which takes years by the way - then we disagree. 

I believe the defensive side of being a 200' NHLer  is largely a coached skill that any player with decent speed and commitment can master.  Scoring at the NHL level is much more difficult and requires natural talent and skill that cannot be taught.  TO me, players that have that natural talent should be given the chance to use it when they arrive to transfer that skill to the NHL level and then be taught the rest of the game over time.   I appreciate Megna's speed and commitment along with many of the fringe players we are currently seeing but I do not believe any amount of coaching or opportunity is going to turn them into NHL goal scorers.  Therefore, to sit more talented players who need to learn defence in favour of rewarding energy guys with top 6 minutes is, to me, a flawed development strategy.

Regarding Boucher...he is just an example because it is late in the season, the Nucks are not making the playoffs and it would be good for management to see what he has talent-wise for the few remaining games.  Who cares if he is not up to speed?  Is losing right now 3-1 instead of 2-1 so important that we need to continue to play our vets 20+ minutes each game?   Besides, if preventing goals is the intent, the Sedins and Edler would be best to be shut down for the season.

 

 

Aside from a very few top first rounders who are drafted because they are prolific scorers, most players taken high in the draft are looked at for their basic skills, hockey IQ and total game. I went back and read the scouting reports on Bo. Most NHL ready player in the draft, good all around game, good on face offs, compared to Ryan Kessler. It's not a surprise that he's turned out to be a good 200 foot player, that was his game in Jr. It is a surprise that he turned out to be a 1C. 

 

The Laine situation is somewhat unique, but not unheard of. I've watched a few Toronto games and their young players, including Matthews, seem to be defensively responsible. It appears to be expected. McDavid also seems to play hard in his own end. Yoi don't get many offense only players in todays NHL. For most young players, the NHL is a big jump, and offense often takes time. They get ice time to acclimate if they're not costing the team with stupid turnovers and blown assignments. Young players should be expected to play whatever system the coach has installed and be responsible in their zone.

[DIBdaQUIB]

29 minutes ago, canuckleheads fan said:

That's just dumb. He wasn't benched for using his instincts. It was his first game with the team, he had not even had a practice. He scored a nice goal, WD decided that it was a nice positive to leave the kid with. They were ahead, still technically in the playoff race and WD was going to milk it the rest of the way. Besides that, they suffered a string of penalties and found themselves on the kill late in the second and into the 3rd. This season WD had shortened his bench in the third with a lead, and gone with players he trusts defensively. The team took both games in So Cal and all anybody could do was bitch about not using Goldobin more. Sorry,  but to WD he was an unknown commodity. Are you going to risk your coaching career on a 20 year old kid making a bad giveaway and costing the game? Of course not.

Sorry...you are losing credibility now.  Willie sat Goldy to leave him with a good feeling after he scored?   Even Alfstonker hasn't made as outrageous a statement as that.  Goldy was sitting long before the penalty troubles started.  He got benched because he blew the zone early.  Anyone who knows hockey and WD's system knows that.

 

If it was because it being his first game with the team, how do you explain Shore's ice time after playing in Switzerland and then traveling all the way to play his first game with the team the next day?

 

As for risking the W by not playing the kids...I assume you have been watching the twins and Edler this year with their combined -50?  Who gave up late goals on the Cali swing?  Yeah right. 

 

I can see this is starting to become a bit Twilight Zone with your WD apologist comments so it is time to move on. 

 

[DIBdaQUIB]

33 minutes ago, canuckleheads fan said:

Bo is a young leader on this team and will find nice things to say about anybody he plays with. He's not about to say "We call him Donatello because he's as slow as a turtle."

Unless you are actually on the Nukcs, your new tendency to speak for Willie, Bo etc. is ridiculous.  Bo was very specific about what he liked about Boucher.  After all, the guy had 7 shots and sored.  the Line played well.  That WD benched Boucher after that outing is just one more example of his odd deployment decisions.

[DIBdaQUIB]

18 minutes ago, canuckleheads fan said:

Aside from a very few top first rounders who are drafted because they are prolific scorers, most players taken high in the draft are looked at for their basic skills, hockey IQ and total game. I went back and read the scouting reports on Bo. Most NHL ready player in the draft, good all around game, good on face offs, compared to Ryan Kessler. It's not a surprise that he's turned out to be a good 200 foot player, that was his game in Jr. It is a surprise that he turned out to be a 1C. 

 

The Laine situation is somewhat unique, but not unheard of. I've watched a few Toronto games and their young players, including Matthews, seem to be defensively responsible. It appears to be expected. McDavid also seems to play hard in his own end. Yoi don't get many offense only players in todays NHL. For most young players, the NHL is a big jump, and offense often takes time. They get ice time to acclimate if they're not costing the team with stupid turnovers and blown assignments. Young players should be expected to play whatever system the coach has installed and be responsible in their zone.

The Toronto youth were put in top 6 positions from the beginning.  They seemed to have caught on pretty quick on how to score.  It is taking a little longer to learn the defense and Babs has demoted the odd one because of it.  The point is, they were given a chance initially to do what they do best and learn the rest later.  Exactly what I have been saying.

 

ONce again, I am not saying kids shouldn't play the system or learn a 200' game. I am saying that having to focus on the 200' game at the expense of the talents that got them to the NHL before they get a chance to use those skills is not an effective development technique for all players.

[spook007]

15 hours ago, canuck2288 said:

The point is we are not winning those games and the "system" is not going to put butts in the seats 

I guarantee you getting hammered each game won't neither...

[Canuck Surfer]

On 3/19/2017 at 4:05 PM, Hutton Wink said:

Nurse -- Oilers finally take a defenceman high in the first round.

 

And pass on Horvat.

 

To be fair they needed, and need, Nurse more than they need Horvat.

 

He'll be a good, if not great, player for them!

[alfstonker]

8 hours ago, Barry_Wilkins said:

You obviously have a hard time with reading comprehension.

 

I've stated at least twice that it's the core who've been healthy for the most part, bar Tanev, and that all teams live or die by the performance or appearance of their core players.

 

I quoted WD because he was asked the question regarding injuries, but refused the easy out by going along with it. WD himself downplays it, which is the right attitude. Completely opposite of that clown Tortorella with his "this core is stale" excuse. No, Tortorella, you were stale. But thanks for the 2nd round pick. 

The core? How were they healthy?

Do you mean Hansen - 22 Edler - 57, Tanev - 42 and two ageing and slow, frail, superstars. Man we don't have a core. We are trying to build a new core.

 

Simple logic should tell you that if you have "core" injuries, your top two players have been past it for 2-3 years now (age is not an injury but it hurts you just as bad) and you are having to rely on AHL players, waiver grabs and projects you are going to be in big trouble.

 

At the time Torts said that I think Edler was having a nightmare (due mostly to Torts) Hansen was "dormant" (again Torts) Burr was in a slump, and the Twins were starting to show their age - so technically he was correct to say the core was stale but some of the blame must go on him.

[ice orca]

7 hours ago, canuckleheads fan said:

At this point in his career, given his current trajectory, yes I think he is.  Kessler had never been a play maker, he's always been a shoot first player.  If he were a play maker, Burrows would have developed into a sniper sooner.  Granlund is the kind of player who can snipe and make plays.  He is further along at his age than Kessler was.

Sorry he will never be better than Kesler, not even the same type of player.

[Neko]

Granlund being compared to Kesler? What sort of drug is being passed around here?

[coho8888]

28 minutes ago, Creepy Crawler said:

Granlund being compared to Kesler? What sort of drug is being passed around here?

Just whatever's left of the Willie fan club asserting that Super Coach Desjardins is responsible for turning Granlund into a better version of Kesler.  Next thing you know they will start saying that Megna is a better version of Ovechkin because he is more defensively responsible and has scored as many goals in the last 10 games.

[coho8888]

9 hours ago, canuckleheads fan said:

No, you're the one who's biased against WD.  I'd say that if it was just Bo, yeah it's just as likely the full credit for his success goes to the kid.  But when you see Bo, Grany, Baer, Trayamkin, Hutton, Sbisa and Stecher all having good to great seasons, a lot of that success has to be credited to the coach.  You would argue Baer and Grany are products of a different system?  When Baer arrived in Vancouver his confidence had been shattered and Calgary had given up on him as a soft perimeter player.  It's why Calgary gave him away for a 2nd round pick.  WD has shaped Baer into an excellent 200 foot player who is not afraid to go to the dirty areas, and now he's seeing success.  Calgary had also given up on Grany as no more than a 3rd or 4th liner, so they traded him for a player who Vancouver management decided will likely never make an impact in the NHL.  WD has always been clear about his expectations.  Be in shape, compete hard, be defensively responsible, go to the dirty areas, earn your ice time.  Granlund trained his butt off over the summer, came back and owned training camp.  Granlund earned his ice time as a solid 200 foot player who has succeeded in every situation he's been cast, from Sedin winger, to 3rd line checking winger (where I think he was best because he helped make Sutter an offensive threat).  WD salvaged both Baer and Granlund's careers.  His tough love with Tryamkin has made him into a solid player who is ready to take the next step by adding sandpaper to his game, as WD said the other day.  Hutton has gotten steadily better, and more confident as the season has progressed.  With WD's steady hand, Sbisa has turned into our most reliable Dman.  He is a steadying force, and I'm hoping management can find a way to keep him in the expansion draft.  Finally, I think fatigue is catching up with Stecher.  I'm seeing mistakes slip into game where I didn't see them before.  It's understandable, it's his first full professional season, playing a faster game against grown men.  I think that up until the mumps outbreak, Stecher's game was improving steadily.  Since then it seems to have leveled off some.  Overall, that's an incredible record of success.   

 

Now what about Vey, Etem, Virtanen and McCann.  I liked Vey and thought that his whipping boy status was very undeserved.  Vey definitely improved under WD's coaching.  He likely would have been even better if he hadn't had all the drama going on in his personal life.  Ultimately, he's limited by his foot speed (skate training and weight training can only do so much), and I think he'll always be a fringe NHL player.  Etem was big, fast, and physical but lacked hockey IQ.  He too will always be a fringe NHLer as has been shown by bouncing around the league.  No matter how good the coach is, he can't turn every AHL prospect into a full-time NHL caliber talent.  Virtanen and McCann were just too immature, and obviously didn't take their game and their training seriously that first season.  A coach can provide structure and a path to success, but the player has to provide the drive, and face it Virtanen was lazy.  He came to camp this past fall about 20 pounds overweight.  McCann was too small, and too physically immature to be an NHL regular when he was here.  It shows you how bereft of talent this organization was that they kept him with the big team rather than sending him back for another year of JR.  Ultimately he was moved for a player who will hopefully turn out to be a better asset.  McCann isn't tearing it up in Florida, so he's obviously not flourishing under the coaching there anymore than he did here.  Also, McCann was not shy about telling people that he did not want to be a Vancouver Canuck, so there's that working against WD as well. 

So when Granlund decides to work hard, get in shape etc.. Its because of Willie?  but when Virtanen, Etem, etc.. don't its because of them?  Geez, just what I said in my last post, when a player does well, its all Willie, when he does not its because there's something wrong with the player.  Yep I get it now.

 

[coho8888]

7 hours ago, canuckleheads fan said:

Aside from a very few top first rounders who are drafted because they are prolific scorers, most players taken high in the draft are looked at for their basic skills, hockey IQ and total game. I went back and read the scouting reports on Bo. Most NHL ready player in the draft, good all around game, good on face offs, compared to Ryan Kessler. It's not a surprise that he's turned out to be a good 200 foot player, that was his game in Jr. It is a surprise that he turned out to be a 1C. 

 

The Laine situation is somewhat unique, but not unheard of. I've watched a few Toronto games and their young players, including Matthews, seem to be defensively responsible. It appears to be expected. McDavid also seems to play hard in his own end. Yoi don't get many offense only players in todays NHL. For most young players, the NHL is a big jump, and offense often takes time. They get ice time to acclimate if they're not costing the team with stupid turnovers and blown assignments. Young players should be expected to play whatever system the coach has installed and be responsible in their zone.

So you are saying that Bo was playing a 200 foot game in jr and was already a good 2 way forward yet Willie played Bo on the third and fourth lines through the first 2 full seasons and the beginning of his third because he needed to learn how to play defensively?  What about the kids coming in that have more offensive skills but not as good defensively, are they going to be playing as fourth liners for 3 to 4 years?

 

 

[canuck2288]

9 hours ago, spook007 said:

I guarantee you getting hammered each game won't neither...

People generally understand growing pains versus not growing at all AND playing paint drying hockey 

[spook007]

2 hours ago, canuck2288 said:

People generally understand growing pains versus not growing at all AND playing paint drying hockey 

Well that's how you see it...

I don't see that at all. I see a lot of players getting opportunities to play in the NHL, and being taught, what it takes to stick. Its not as if its Bure, Ovechkin or McDavid we have playing... Its mainly left overs and rejects. Lets be honest, not many of these players would have been in the team of 2011. They would have learned these things in the AHL, and then been introduced once they were near the full package.

If you tell players just to go and play offence, the reason most of them has been chosen in the first place, you don't get anything extra... you then got Oilers the last 10 years. And if they hadn't won the sweep sticks and gotten McDavid, they still be floating around.