In Defense of the Sedins and Edler

[darkpoet]

On 3/24/2017 at 2:00 AM, RRypien37 said:

Edler has been horrendous shortly after he first came on the scene. Probably some of the lowest hockey IQ the NHL has to offer.

 

 

OUCH! 


He hasn't been the same player since 2010. Seriously.... who is this guy and why is he wearing Edlers # 23?  :
 

 

[kingofsurrey]

3 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

Scheifele

Kucherov

Marchand

 

Three players near the top of league scoring, all on non-playoff teams.  A bad team doesn't prevent good players from putting up points.  The reason the Sedins are having a bad season is old age, not a bad team

Certainly not due to the quality opportunities that Willie gives them  ( great minutes, o zone starts and dominant PP1 time ).....

[TheGuardian_]

On ‎2017‎-‎03‎-‎24 at 6:02 AM, BoDangles53 said:

The twins are 36 - people seem to ignore this every time they complain. Remember Sundin? He slowed right? Look at Iginla, and the game has changed alot since Sundin was here too, its gotten a HELL of alot quicker

Too many posters play EA sports or no sports at all anymore or are still just kids.

If age didn't mean anything then Orr, Gretzky and Super Mario would still be playing.

 

Edler was/is good now decent. Again, anyone that has had a back problem knows these things alter the way things get done and are painful forever unless you are very very lucky and as he gets older it will only get worse.

 

Daniel has never been the same since his concussion, those also have effects as you get older, a recovery sometimes isn't.

[higgyfan]

14 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Too many posters play EA sports or no sports at all anymore or are still just kids.

If age didn't mean anything then Orr, Gretzky and Super Mario would still be playing.

 

Edler was/is good now decent. Again, anyone that has had a back problem knows these things alter the way things get done and are painful forever unless you are very very lucky and as he gets older it will only get worse.

 

Daniel has never been the same since his concussion, those also have effects as you get older, a recovery sometimes isn't.

So true.

 

Enough of the Sedin bashing around here.  They have contributed so much to this city on and off the ice and are probably going to be in the HHOF.  Yeah, they are declining and have been taking a beating for many years now.  Just like all top players eventually do.

 

Last year you were all whining about Bur and now you're sad he's gone.

 

Ditch your impatience and show some gratitude and respect.  They will be leaving this team soon enough and it will be a sad day in the Canuckhood.

[gameburn2]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 6:32 PM, Westcoasting said:

Don't think anyone hates the Sedins... more out of frustration of having high dollar players who can no longer perform at that level. Don't see any hate for Willlie either, i think it is more frustration with deployment and ice time given and going with same lineups and not trying anything new. All this on a close to last place team that is spending to the cap will cause concern for most fans.

A lot of us feel this way.  And the longer we've watched the team the stronger we feel about it.  I don't even care about the cap issue/money. 

The whole last year and a half has amounted to a very slow moving wreck.  Out of the wreckage we are beginning to see the future of the team.  It is led by Horvat and perhaps Tryamkin.

 

Part of our frustration -- and a source of contention in the forums -- is the speed at which the wreck occurred and whether the wreck could have been less catastrophic. 

We have all hoped for the next era to get going a bit quicker: this is why there is such interest in Boeser, Demko (and Virtanen) and now in the likes of Goldobin and Dahlen (and Boucher).   I suspect that this year's Draft will be almost as popular as last year's.  In spite of no Laine or Matthews. 

 

[gameburn2]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 9:02 AM, BoDangles53 said:

The  twins have been important for many reasons outside of their points but as we can all see now, keeping the vets (including the twins and edler) was an extremely important move given the state of the franchise when Benning took over.

 

It's funny that in an OP that really suggests people look at context SOME of your comments seem to ignore that

 

Context

 

Who would have had cap room to take 2 $7 mil or even 2 $5.5 mil players (prior to extension)? Context

 

Clearly, as we transition(ed) the focus was on ensuring we shelter some of our youth (and at the time little other than Bo) to ensure we don't get Edmonton Syndrome - Context

 

Clearly, keeping the twins, hansen, burr, and yes even Edler has been a benefit to our next core (Bo, Granny, Baer, Stech, Hutton, Try etc) - Context

 

Your comment is a stealth tank argument disguised (should have moved them)

 

Actually No we shouldn't have moved them because its allowed our young players in this very tough transition to continue to play in competitive games and to develop at their own pace without alot of pressure

 

Fans here ignore that the twins, edler, burr all those taking heat, took heat for the team. The heat they took and take allowed the young guys to make errors and avoid the scrutiny of this rabid fan base and media

 

You think Bo was perfect every night since day 1 when people were screaming more ice? No he wasn't even close, but his errors went unnoticed because players like Hansen, even Dorsett were covering, players like the twins were taking the 'hard minutes', Sutter was taking the hard defensive minutes.

How do you think Baer would have progressed if he had pressure to score while he was kind of lost defensively and had to find his game? He couldn't manage both, and he would have been sent down and probably busted due to a lack of confidence, not an issue at all because of skill. 

 

How about Granny finding his game being sheltered for a while on the third line, and the twins helping raise his confidence level and scoring even with a bum wrist?

 

How about Hutton, Stecher, Try not having to face McDavid, Getzy, and take the hard minutes because Edler does?

 

How about Marky not ever having to take the hardest opponents because Miler will take them behind a young inexperienced, and oft hurt defense?

 

You think none of those vets matter? and that moving them 'when we should have' would have made this team better when we're trying to build for the future? You think those vets taking the hard minutes doesn't help the young players learn to play the pro game slowly, outside of scrutiny, helping them build confidence, to the point that EVENTUALLY their talent can come out? 

 

Those vets are the teachers of the future core, without what those vets are selflessly doing (helping transition), this team would be mired in crap for a decade. Instead, given how JB has done a stellar job, there is 'potential' this transition may only take 2-3 more years before we're taking a run at it again.

 

What the twins, burr, hansen, edler are doing is repaying loyalty. People barked about Kesler wanting out to 'go win'- and now they bark at the guys saying you know what, ya it sucks we didn't win the cup but maybe given what this franchise has done for me, I can help the next group finish what we started.

 

your comment shows very little hockey knowledge whatsoever

 

 

Sorry, I should have replied earlier. To your thoughtful argument you deserve a reply.

 

1. We don't know if the twins, edler, burr (vets) were beneficial to the development of the new budding core.  I would argue that this could go either way: think of the ice time and pp opportunity that many of the younger players did not get til... well, we actually started moving Burr, Hansen, etc. Besides, this misses the point: you move players because you are in a rebuild, because you can't have a lot of 30 yr old plus players on a team and no youth movement in the works.

 

2. Your next 5 or 6 points are the same: someone young here now was better off because someone older wasn't moved and was here to "shelter" them.

The problem with this part of your argument (and it applies to most of your argument) is that if we had moved these players earlier WE WOULD HAVE HAD MORE PLAYERS HERE that would have come in exchange, either of the Dahlen/Baer type, or draft picks.  Players we either don't have now or have had to wait an extra 2 years for.  Bo and others would have had more support.  Players their own age to hang out with, to build a team with.  Some of the best teams ever to play were made up of a lot of younger players. Yes, you keep some vets.  But how many?  We kept too many, too long and worst of all perhaps: expected them to carry the load.

 

3. Your basic argument suggests we should not have moved these vets, perhaps even that we should still have them.  Hansen can still play, Burr looks revitalized in Ottawa, Hamhuis is okay in Dallas, Kesler and Bieksa continue to look pretty good in California.  Do you wish they were all here, "leading and sheltering"?   We moved these players to rebuild.  You are keen on the word "context" -- the context we are really talking about (or refusing to talk about) is that of a rebuild.  Not teaching, not development only.

 

4. Re: ignorance: your comments are rude and unfair.  And ironically a bit ignorant.  There are views akin to mine in hockey circles.  You think I'm the only person who wonders whether we should have moved assets earlier?  That we should have done what Toronto did and stocked up on draft picks?

 

Your faith in osmosis : that somehow "being around the vets" will make those around them better, that by being around these mentor-Gods the raw youth will learn to be pros, etc.  That the vets "teach" other players.  That knowing how to play mysteriously transfers to the young from the experienced.  The terrible truth is that character and dedication -- together with opportunity -- make players.  (And talent matters.)  And maybe the coaches you had in Bantam/Midget/Junior/AHL.  And maybe watching video and training like a beast in the Summer.   Not older players you are expected to concede pp time to night after night.  Whose mistakes go unnoticed while yours lead to a benching.   Youth must be served.  Not sheltered.  The reason that Colorado sucks isn't because they have no veterans to "teach" McKinnon and Duchene.  Or to "shelter" them from the big bad D while they "mature."  They suck for the oldest reason there is: they don't have enough good players (D and goal in particular).   And the reason Virtanen is in the AHL and Bo never was has to do with character, dedication, and summer training, not the mentoring.  He had as many mentors available to him as Bo had, in fact, the same ones!

 

I like what Benning has done, over all.   His college signings are looking pretty good; the Dahlen/Baertschi/Rodin type of deals build depth, the Tryamkin signing was genius given his place in the Draft, and I even like the idea of the Miller and Eriksson (or Lucic) FA signings: too much losing is bad for anyone, and there was money available. (context again.  Money is different from draft picks.)

 

Lastly, a more experienced GM (or luckier) would have rendered much of your argument moot: Hansen, Hamhuis, Edler, Burrows, maybe even Tanev: they all would have been moved well before Horvat's breakout year (since November of 2016.)   And he would have become the star is he becoming with or without the vets.  Except there might be 2 extra players on board already to fill out the lines.  Benning wanted to move some of these guys earlier -- finally he's able to get it done.  But he wanted a lot of these guys gone sooner, make no mistake.  A more blunt GM (different owner too?) would have moved the Sedins 2 or 3 years back.  Phil Kessel and Dion Phaneuf can still play at a high level: but Toronto was rebuilding.  In a rebuild, most of the time, no player is sacred, it's the rebuild that matters.  

Is Toronto worse than us because they rebuilt as ruthlessly as they did?  Where their only vets are Bozak and Kadri (and Komarov... can't recall when he arrived.) 

That is a model of a rebuild.  But it works if and only if you have the opportunity/support to move the high end players.  (We'll not know whether Benning would have preferred the Toronto approach until he writes his memoir.)