4 years later

[IBatch]

10 minutes ago, Chris12345 said:

Canucks got absolutely fleeced by this trade. They didn't trade Schneids for Bo they traded Schneids for the 9th overall pick.

 

Hard to tell what was out there but the rumoured Oiler deal was better.

 

To compound the issue they dealt Loungo. Frustrating beyond words.

That is the exact truth.  It was a demoralizing trade to say the least as Schneider was putting up top five numbers and much younger than Luongo.  We didn't even get a roster player for him if Horvat was a bust the sting would still be haunting us.  Gillis completely mishandled our goaltending...Two elite goalies ....If Benning didn't come in and sign Miller right away we'd have had much better odds at Mathews or Laine.  

 

That said if it actually worked out.  Horvat leads the next generation of Canucks.

[Coconuts]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Actually, great goalies can carry their teams: Roy, Hasek, and Price.  Snieder is not as good as is numbers indicate.  He's never even led his team to the playoffs!  Bo is way better.  

Mhmm, but not every goaltender is a Price and Roy and Hasek had some pretty damn good teams in front of them at different points. The Devils of the last couple years don't hold a candle to some of those teams. It takes more than one guy.

 

I like Horvat, but it's foolish to say he's a better player. Given the difference in age, position and experience there's no legitimate comparison. Bo likely hasn't even hit his stride yet at 21 and Schneider is 31.

 

 

 

 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Coconuts said:

Mhmm, but not every goaltender is a Price and Roy and Hasek had some pretty damn good teams in front of them at different points. The Devils of the last couple years don't hold a candle to some of those teams. It takes more than one guy.

 

I like Horvat, but it's foolish to say he's a better player. Given the difference in age, position and experience there's no legitimate comparison. Bo likely hasn't even hit his stride yet at 21 and Schneider is 31.

 

 

 

 

Our poll results show we won the trade.  Bo is better.  Again, if Schneider was a top goalie he would take his team to the playoffs, at least once.  

[khay]

Both team won.

 

If Edmonton was offering 7th overall + Klefbom for Schneider, then with hindsight, I would have traded Schneider to Edmonton.

 

Schneider would have kept Oilers from getting Connor McDavid, we get Bo Horvat at 7th overall, and on top of that, we get a top 4 defenceman. 

 

A triple win.

 

But I don't think Edmonton was offering Klefbom. 

[Coconuts]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Our poll results show we won the trade.  Bo is better.  Again, if Schneider was a top goalie he would take his team to the playoffs, at least once.  

Based on a less than unbiased audience on a Canucks forum. Like I said, no legitimate comparison between players due to position and age. Bo's taken great strides forward and if you look at Schneider's numbers the last few years he's done everything in his power to help his team. But he's one starting goaltender as opposed to four starting centres. His numbers have been great, but he can't do it alone. Bo's an emerging centreman in his first few seasons, Cory's a veteran goaltender who's in a pressure cooker like no other game in and game out based on the fact that each mistake he makes is likely a goal. 

 

You're welcome to your opinion, but I disagree. I don't think either player is better but I do think both teams benefited from the trade.

[IBatch]

10 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Our poll results show we won the trade.  Bo is better.  Again, if Schneider was a top goalie he would take his team to the playoffs, at least once.  

Schneiders career save percentage is at the top all-time...His GAA is also outstanding.  It's hard to win games when your team struggles regularly to score two goals.  No goalie other than perhaps Hasek has been able to take their respective team to the playoffs when they have such a terrible team infront of them.  He's still in his prime so NJ has a few more years to sort things out but their window isn't as wide open as it was when they went straight from Broduer to Cory.  I hope he gets his chance he's certainly waited long enough given his extra seasoning in the NCAA and then with us as Luognos mentee and eventual peer.

 

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Schneiders career save percentage is at the top all-time...His GAA is also outstanding.  It's hard to win games when your team struggles regularly to score two goals.  No goalie other than perhaps Hasek has been able to take their respective team to the playoffs when they have such a terrible team infront of them.  He's still in his prime so NJ has a few more years to sort things out but their window isn't as wide open as it was when they went straight from Broduer to Cory.  I hope he gets his chance he's certainly waited long enough given his extra seasoning in the NCAA and then with us as Luognos mentee and eventual peer.

 

Numbers are not how we judge a goalie.  It's playoffs.  Cory just can't get his team there.  Simple.  Bo is better, and I'm happy with the trade:)

[ruilin96]

Personally, I would still have rather traded Schneider to the Oilers instead of the Devils. At the time, the Oilers draft pick was the #7th pick, which means we will be able to select Bo with that pick anyways. And we would of have Kelfbom and a 2nd round pick as well. With Schneider with the Oilers, the Oilers would be hovering around mediocry and definitely would not be in a position to win the draft lottery which got them McDavid. The Oilers would be in much tougher situation than they would have been today and that would actually mean the Canucks likely won't have to deal with McDavid in the same conference for the next 15-20 years.

[elvis15]

9 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

I will always wonder, had Horvat not been on the table still, would the trade still have been made?

Possibly not. I think Gillis was stuck with having to move one goalie, and with Luongo not going anywhere at that time after the rumoured deal to Toronto was blocked it had to be Schneider.

[oldnews]

5 hours ago, Chris12345 said:

Canucks got absolutely fleeced by this trade. They didn't trade Schneids for Bo they traded Schneids for the 9th overall pick.

6 of one Chris.

The deal took place with NJ about to pick - the Canucks knew Horvat was on the board - they dealt Schneider for Horvat.

Not sure how you see it otherwise.

[oldnews]

5 hours ago, Alflives said:

Numbers are not how we  I judge a goalie.  It's playoffs.  Cory just can't get his team there.  Simple.  Bo is better, and I'm happy with the trade:)

No scout, pro or amateur, would judge a player in a team sport by their team's ability to make the playoffs.

So I had to edit your post to I as opposed to "we", because I can't imagine there being a "we" - you're really just speaking for yourself of course.

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

No scout, pro or amateur, would judge a player in a team sport by their team's ability to make the playoffs.

So I had to edit your post to I as opposed to "we", because I can't imagine there being a "we" - you're really just speaking for yourself of course.

unless that player is the difference maker between playoffs and not. Carey Price e.g., Montreal isn't even close to a playoff team without him. But he's one of the exceptions. 

[oldnews]

19 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

unless that player is the difference maker between playoffs and not. Carey Price e.g., Montreal isn't even close to a playoff team without him. But he's one of the exceptions. 

I'm not sure I agree with this - and it might actually depend upon who you replace Price with - but regardless, a goaltender simply cannot be expected to propel a bad team like the New Jersey Devils into the playoffs.  Judging a goaltender on this basis is a recipe for having no idea how good that goaltender may actually be.

 

Dubnyk never managed to get Edmonton into the playoffs, therefore Dubnyk is judged to be no good.

Bobrovsky makes the playoffs 1 of 5 seasons in Columbus = Bobrovsky is no good.

A pair of present top 5 goaltenders in the league.

Obviously does not work that way.

[Crabcakes]

1 hour ago, elvis15 said:

Possibly not. I think Gillis was stuck with having to move one goalie, and with Luongo not going anywhere at that time after the rumoured deal to Toronto was blocked it had to be Schneider.

Well, there is that.  Gillis made a complete mess of things and it cost him his job.  Was he running scared?  Ironic that Horvat turned out after all.

[Standing_Tall#37]

9 hours ago, gong_8 said:

Read somewhere that it was Oilers 2013 first round pick (7th overall, they took Darnell Nurse) and Martin Marincin a defenseman.  Don't remember which team offered (probably Canucks) and was rejected (by Oilers).  Cory Schneider was going for a premium if he went to a division rival so I think Vancouver made the offer, since they only got a draft pick back from New Jersey.

 

As for Luongo, if he was traded at the 2013 draft (just finished year 3 of his contract), he was only ever going to go to Florida (2nd overall that years draft) or maybe Tampa Bay (3rd overall also that year) so it didn't matter what other teams (Toronto, under Burke and Nonis obviously a low ball during the 2013 trade deadline) offered to the Canucks.

 

Corey Schneider took over the end of the 2012 playoffs (down 2 - 0 to LA and needed a spark, no fault to Luongo from what I witnessed) and it looked like he was going to take over the reigns the Canucks, for the future.  They probably should have traded Roberto Luongo (just finished year 2 of his contract so unlikely) at the 2012 draft (won President's Trophy but moved up 4 spots, since the conference title rounds get the last 4 picks of the draft) since Florida had a late first round pick (23rd overall, Canucks had, 26th overall, Brendan Gaunce).  Maybe package those 2 first round picks to move up?  Also, later that summer was the lockout so that even made it worse.

 

Mike Gillis really wanted Nick Bjugstad.  Maybe Florida would have done that straight up for Roberto Luongo, we will never know, I would have settled for that knowing what we know now.  But if we were looking at Roberto Luongo for Florida's first round pick in any of 2012 (23), 2013 (2), or 2014 (1) it would have only been 2012.  So my offers that made sense would have been.

 

Roberto Luongo and no salary retention for Florida Panthers 2012 first round pick (23) or Nick Bjugstad.

Roberto Luongo, some salary retention for Nick Bjugstad and 2012 first round pick (23) - If I'm Florida I reject this

 

Florida had no incentive to trade anything to Vancouver knowing that Roberto Luongo (and his big contract) would only wave to go to them.

 

Getting back to the main point of this topic, it is a trade (Horvat for Schneider) that is working out for both teams.

You were right plus I think Edmonton had a 2nd Rd on the table as well... I remember them all looking shocked/pisses because the Canucks turned them down to go with the 9th overall instead of the 7th, 37th and marincin.

[Standing_Tall#37]

Just checked and both henrik and Kesler took 6 years of pro to hit 50pts+.... Horvat has taken 3 years. Not to shabby.

[kingofsurrey]

1 minute ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

Just checked and both henrik and Kesler took 6 years of pro to hit 50pts+.... Horvat has taken 3 years. Not to shabby.

Yes, and our fanbase has already gave up on Virtanen.   Too funny. 

[Brad Marchand]

To set the record straight (and it's honestly baffling how many times I've read this), the Canucks were the ones who asked for the 7th overall pick + for Schneider. The Oilers were the ones who backed away from any potential deal, not the other way around:

You can read more about the whole thing here: http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/vancouver-canucks-premium-edmonton-oilers-cory-schneider

 

In any event, even if the Canucks couldn't recuperate what people felt was market value for Schneider, they still did pretty well getting Horvat out of it. Kinda feel bad though that Schneids is wasting his prime years on a team that's still trying to climb out of a rebuild of sorts.

[Chris12345]

1 hour ago, oldnews said:

6 of one Chris.

The deal took place with NJ about to pick - the Canucks knew Horvat was on the board - they dealt Schneider for Horvat.

Not sure how you see it otherwise.

Your take on it is accurate and I agree with that angle, however Bo was available at the 7 slot, along with the rumoured 2 other assets.

 

Although the trade with the Oilers was rumoured Craig McTavish's reaction said otherwise. So at the end of the day I still feel they got fleeced and traded Sneids for the 9th and not Horvat.

 

Regardless I am sure we can agree that Bo's pretty awesome.

[JM_]

1 hour ago, oldnews said:

I'm not sure I agree with this - and it might actually depend upon who you replace Price with - but regardless, a goaltender simply cannot be expected to propel a bad team like the New Jersey Devils into the playoffs.  Judging a goaltender on this basis is a recipe for having no idea how good that goaltender may actually be.

 

Dubnyk never managed to get Edmonton into the playoffs, therefore Dubnyk is judged to be no good.

Bobrovsky makes the playoffs 1 of 5 seasons in Columbus = Bobrovsky is no good.

A pair of present top 5 goaltenders in the league.

Obviously does not work that way.

Fair enough. But without Price e.g., teams would come in a lot more confident. Either way I do agree with you nearly most of the time basing scouting of an individual based on the team success or failures makes no sense. Or to use shorthand "Dane Fox".