Provincial Election Thread

[Warhippy]

14 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

I doubt you were involved in any kind of manufacturing back then, if you were you'd know that NAFTA and the GST were the key things to keep any of it under globalization as well as helping to create new manufacturing opportunities. Again the NDP fought that tooth and nail and were dead wrong.

I was not.  I am simply stating a fact.  NAFTA helped erode and erase jobs in these sectors country wide which had little if anything to do with provincial governance.  The NDP fighting globalization and promoting fair trade over free trade is not wrong.

 

Fighting or ensuring fair deals instead of free deals will never be wrong.  NAFTA effectively erased a decade or more of economic opportunity for Canada

[JM_]

8 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

I was not.  I am simply stating a fact.  NAFTA helped erode and erase jobs in these sectors country wide which had little if anything to do with provincial governance.  The NDP fighting globalization and promoting fair trade over free trade is not wrong.

 

Fighting or ensuring fair deals instead of free deals will never be wrong.  NAFTA effectively erased a decade or more of economic opportunity for Canada

But the NDP was wrong Hip. Do you know what the GST replaced? A 13% manufacturing tax on everything a Canadian manufacturer made. Hows that for a brilliant strategy the NDP wanted to keep?

 

Globalization is not NAFTA. Globalization - essentially 1/2 the worlds manufacturing going to China - was going to happen NAFTA or no NAFTA. Its amazing to me how many people on the left get these two things confused. NAFTA gave the Canadian manufacturing base a much more level playing field in the US, which is the main reason we still have one. And we do have one. Just check out the CME and you will see what I'm talking about.

 

Had we followed the NDP back then we'd have that stupid tax and US tariffs, and probably very little manufacturing left. How is that "fair trade"?

[Sapper]

53 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

ok champ. I disagree. Anyone that couldn't get a job under a non-NDP gov't should have left.

I had 3 jobs ... 1 full time and 2 part time. I worked 60 hours a week.

 

There was 25 or more of us all on the same basic training course all from saskatchewan. There was a common theme 

Male, 18 to 25, rural saskatchewan, came from a farm or worked on a farm. Not only was Saskatchewan in a recession it was in a drought period.

Most major new construction didn't hire unskilled labor locally and rig crews showed up near full staffed.

Joining the military was a good option for those wanting to move up. I had friends who after being laid off from manufacturing applied for EI retraining and found that they were told to get a job doing what ever they could as funding was now under affirmative action guidelines.

 

Most of those people applied to the rcmp - got denied, then applied for the armed.forces.

I consider everyone who did join a good example of what a hard working adult should be - they went to the work and did what they had to.

I could have stayed and blamed the Pc's but that wouldn't have put food on the table.

The economy tanked the year after grant Devine took office. Some aspects.like the drought and collapse in oil prices were not his doing Other aspects were his doing.  The 80's in saskatchewan were tough times. 

 

I see a lot of similarities between the Pc's of the 80s in saskatchewan and the Christy Clark liberals of BC

 

Not everyone who couldn't get a decent job in saskatchewan In the 80's was to blame, or the problem.

 

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, iwtl said:

I had 3 jobs ... 1 full time and 2 part time. I worked 60 hours a week.

 

There was 25 or more of us all on the same basic training course all from saskatchewan. There was a common theme 

Male, 18 to 25, rural saskatchewan, came from a farm or worked on a farm. Not only was Saskatchewan in a recession it was in a drought period.

Most major new construction didn't hire unskilled labor locally and rig crews showed up near full staffed.

Joining the military was a good option for those wanting to move up. I had friends who after being laid off from manufacturing applied for EI retraining and found that they were told to get a job doing what ever they could as funding was now under affirmative action guidelines.

 

Most of those people applied to the rcmp - got denied, then applied for the armed.forces.

I consider everyone who did join a good example of what a hard working adult should be - they went to the work and did what they had to.

I could have stayed and blamed the Pc's but that wouldn't have put food on the table.

The economy tanked the year after grant Devine took office. Some aspects.like the drought and collapse in oil prices were not his doing Other aspects were his doing.  The 80's in saskatchewan were tough times. 

 

I see a lot of similarities between the Pc's of the 80s in saskatchewan and the Christy Clark liberals of BC

 

Not everyone who couldn't get a decent job in saskatchewan In the 80's was to blame, or the problem.

 

they are part of the problem when they support political parties that are anti-industry and then wonder why there aren't as many good union jobs. When I was working in manufacturing in SK, the Romanow gov't had zero support or incentives to keep companies in SK. Thats why so many of us left, other than farm equipment guys and local light industrial. Yes Devine was a dweeb, much like todays Brad Wall, but at least they didn't go out of their way to try to kill manufacturing jobs like the NDP promoted. 

 

 

 

[Sapper]

I didn't live in saskatchewan past 84 so can't comment on the 90s under Roy Romonow.... I did live under grant Devines first term, and I like many left the province to find work. 

 

We couldn't have been part of the problem you identify as

as our town had voted PC and had elected the PC candidate. It did however move to ndp for 4 or 5 elections after that. 

 

 

 

 

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, S'all Good Man said:

they are part of the problem when they support political parties that are anti-industry and then wonder why there aren't as many good union jobs. When I was working in manufacturing in SK, the Romanow gov't had zero support or incentives to keep companies in SK. Thats why so many of us left, other than farm equipment guys and local light industrial. Yes Devine was a dweeb, much like todays Brad Wall, but at least they didn't go out of their way to try to kill manufacturing jobs like the NDP promoted. 

 

 

 

Fear 

Worry

Paranoia 

 

All NDP....

 

It's getting old dude.  That's not how the free market works and you know it.

 

Governments have little to no say in what businesses do.  It's like blaming the NDP for Alberta instead of market factors.

 

All NDP all the time 

[JM_]

3 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Fear 

Worry

Paranoia 

 

All NDP....

 

It's getting old dude.  That's not how the free market works and you know it.

 

Governments have little to no say in what businesses do.  It's like blaming the NDP for Alberta instead of market factors.

 

All NDP all the time 

So no NDP none of the time? thats not how it works either. I'm going off what they "fought for" and said they would do. Yah some parties are more pro-business than others. Some come up with incentives to keep manufacturing, some give it to teachers instead. You know that they make choices, you've slammed Clark for it over and over.... or are you now saying she didn't have much say in things?

 

[Warhippy]

14 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said:

So no NDP none of the time? thats not how it works either. I'm going off what they "fought for" and said they would do. Yah some parties are more pro-business than others. Some come up with incentives to keep manufacturing, some give it to teachers instead. You know that they make choices, you've slammed Clark for it over and over.... or are you now saying she didn't have much say in things?

 

I'm saying she had almost total control.  That's the person she is

 

But as of 2015 the NDP provincially actually had balanced budgets across the country at the provincial levl almost 50% of the time vs the cons and Libs who trailed them considerably.

 

I'm simply saying you keep promoting the NDP as anti business, anti development and more.  Yet their records say otherwise.  When weighed against the Cons and Liibs yes they look less pro business, but when weighed against the NDP one could say that the Cons and Libs are less pro citizen/voter/taxpayer

 

I can say pretty plainly that one party at least reinvests our dollars back in to the programs that helped make this country what it was/is while the other two tend to give more money away to businesses or via subsidization, usually at the expense of the people

[DonLever]

3 hours ago, Warhippy said:

 That's not how the free market works and you know it.

 

Governments have little to no say in what businesses do.  

Not true at all.  We don't have a laissez fair economy.  Companies have regulations to follow.  Governments set policies.  For example, minimum wage laws.  Setting them too high will impact business.  They will have to hike prices to cover wage increases or let some employees go.  Also government set the business taxes.  Too high may drive some businesses away.  

[Ryan Strome]

5 hours ago, iwtl said:

I didn't live in saskatchewan past 84 so can't comment on the 90s under Roy Romonow.... I did live under grant Devines first term, and I like many left the province to find work. 

 

We couldn't have been part of the problem you identify as

as our town had voted PC and had elected the PC candidate. It did however move to ndp for 4 or 5 elections after that. 

 

 

 

 

Hmmm this is interesting considering other than present day when you left Saskatchewan it was the only other time the province had over a million people. So I'm not sure so many like you said were leaving.

 

 

Year	Population	Five-year % change	Ten-year % change	Rank among provinces
1901	91,279	n/a	n/a	8
1911	492,432	n/a	439.5	3
1921	757,510	n/a	53.8	3
1931	921,785	n/a	21.7	3
1941	895,992	n/a	-2.8	3
1951	831,728	n/a	-7.2	5
1956	880,665	5.9	n/a	5
1961	925,181	5.1	11.2	5
1966	955,344	3.3	8.5	6
1971	926,242	-3.0	0.1	6
1976	921,325	-0.5	3.6	6
1981	968,313	5.1	4.5	6
1986	1,009,613	4.3	9.6	6
1991	988,928	-2.0	2.1	6
1996	976,615	-1.2	-3.3	6
2001	978,933	0.2	-1.0	6
2006	985,386	0.7	0.9	6
2011	1,053,960	7.0	7.6	6
2016	1,098,352	6.3	11.4	6

[Ryan Strome]

Lol @S'all Good Man calling Wall a dweeb he has had the highest population growth in Saskatchewan in almost 100 years. Your lovely B.C Liberals would love those numbers. 

[Sapper]

1 hour ago, Ryan Strome said:

Hmmm this is interesting considering other than present day when you left Saskatchewan it was the only other time the province had over a million people. So I'm not sure so many like you said were leaving.

 

 

Year	Population	Five-year % change	Ten-year % change	Rank among provinces
1901	91,279	n/a	n/a	8
1911	492,432	n/a	439.5	3
1921	757,510	n/a	53.8	3
1931	921,785	n/a	21.7	3
1941	895,992	n/a	-2.8	3
1951	831,728	n/a	-7.2	5
1956	880,665	5.9	n/a	5
1961	925,181	5.1	11.2	5
1966	955,344	3.3	8.5	6
1971	926,242	-3.0	0.1	6
1976	921,325	-0.5	3.6	6
1981	968,313	5.1	4.5	6
1986	1,009,613	4.3	9.6	6
1991	988,928	-2.0	2.1	6
1996	976,615	-1.2	-3.3	6
2001	978,933	0.2	-1.0	6
2006	985,386	0.7	0.9	6
2011	1,053,960	7.0	7.6	6
2016	1,098,352	6.3	11.4	6

Saskatoon and regina grew but small town rural saskatchewan took a.big hit. Some folks.moved into the nearest city and others left the province. In the 80's a lot of towns died as with no stores or.banks the seniors left for the cities - with no rural jobs young adults left as well. As young adults hitting regina we found rent to be high and far too much competition for entry level work .... which kept wages low. Finding work wasn't hard ..... They paid so low you had to have 2 or 3 of them to survive. This was back before food banks and soup kitchens.  So yes lots of younger folks from rural saskatchewan left to find work. Out of my high school class I would say 2/3 of us left. 

Not all blame can be pointed at one single politician.... who can blame guys from leaving a small town when their are no good jobs or enough single folks.

 

We are way off topic but a big part of the turfing of Devine was how small towns felt they had been abandoned. Saskatoon and regina are.normally ndp country with small town saskatchewan being conservative.  Very much the same in BC.

 

Between 81 and 91 they only grew by 20k overall. That would suggest a strong mix of people coming and leaving over that decade. Depending on where in saskatchewan your talking about the figures could be a lot higher or lower. 

 

Fond.memories of growing up but can't say I kiss the winter's. 

 

Every rider game I attend you can see the sea of green at BC place ... As the old.joke goes..... No one actually lives there anymore .... yet we all seem to come from saskatchewan. BC place.becomes the 6th largest saskatchewan city when the riders are in town

 

[Violator]

You can say the same thing about McMahon stadium when the riders are in town it gets pretty violent during those games.lots of people from Saskatchewan in Alberta at least double the Newfie population.

[goalie13]

Christy has stepped down as leader of the BC Liberals.  She has not stated if she will continue to serve as MLA for Kelowna West.  I suspect she will to help keep the virtual tie in place in the legislature.  But if the next leader isn't an existing MLA, she may step down to open a safe seat for her successor.

 

http://www.theprovince.com/news/local+news/christy+clark+resigns+leader+liberal+party/13934299/story.html

 

I wonder who will be next?

[kingofsurrey]

2 hours ago, goalie13 said:

Christy has stepped down as leader of the BC Liberals.  She has not stated if she will continue to serve as MLA for Kelowna West.  I suspect she will to help keep the virtual tie in place in the legislature.  But if the next leader isn't an existing MLA, she may step down to open a safe seat for her successor.

 

http://www.theprovince.com/news/local+news/christy+clark+resigns+leader+liberal+party/13934299/story.html

 

I wonder who will be next?

Nope CC quit on her own riding voters as well.  Took her ball and went home ( back to West Side Vancity  / LOL )   Reminds me of a kid i was in grade 6 with . 

[goalie13]

1 hour ago, kingofsurrey said:

Nope CC quit on her own riding voters as well.  Took her ball and went home ( back to West Side Vancity  / LOL )   Reminds me of a kid i was in grade 6 with . 

Well, that's how the story was at the time I posted it.

[JM_]

On 2017-07-26 at 6:57 PM, Warhippy said:

I'm saying she had almost total control.  That's the person she is

 

But as of 2015 the NDP provincially actually had balanced budgets across the country at the provincial levl almost 50% of the time vs the cons and Libs who trailed them considerably.

 

I'm simply saying you keep promoting the NDP as anti business, anti development and more.  Yet their records say otherwise.  When weighed against the Cons and Liibs yes they look less pro business, but when weighed against the NDP one could say that the Cons and Libs are less pro citizen/voter/taxpayer

 

I can say pretty plainly that one party at least reinvests our dollars back in to the programs that helped make this country what it was/is while the other two tend to give more money away to businesses or via subsidization, usually at the expense of the people

you are mistaking "balanced budgets" for the sum of economic planning. Romanow had balanced budgets, and its easy to do that when you're not investing in anything.

 

you're wrong on the last point as well imo, all parties in Canada have increased social program spending overall, sure there have been some year to year cuts but the trend overall is one of continued investment in education, health, etc., the myth that its only the NDP that does this just can't be supported. But its a nice faux moral high ground I guess.

 

 

 

[Sapper]

8 hours ago, S'all Good Man said:

you are mistaking "balanced budgets" for the sum of economic planning. Romanow had balanced budgets, and its easy to do that when you're not investing in anything.

 

you're wrong on the last point as well imo, all parties in Canada have increased social program spending overall, sure there have been some year to year cuts but the trend overall is one of continued investment in education, health, etc., the myth that its only the NDP that does this just can't be supported. But its a nice faux moral high ground I guess.

 

 

 

This is the problem with politics. Had Romanow ran a deficit to invest in the province - the right wing would call him a reckless spender, a dipper, anti business etc. Had Romanow balanced the budget he would be accused of not investing in the province and being anti business. Either way he gets ridiculed.

 

In my opinion the problem Canada wide is the lowering of business taxes. Government needs that tax revenue so they transfer business's share to consumers/workers. It results in hand cuffing any future government and keeps us in this loop of "can't win".  Canadian corporations have had record profits this past decade. The tax cuts where to stimulate job growth, company investment and increased wages. We saw little of any benefits from those tax cuts. Harper himself called out companies for hoarding cash from tax cuts - Capitalism has failed. Under capitalism everyone would have the same rights.... workers and owners.

 

So back to Roy Romanow. - When Brad Wall balances the budget he gets hailed as a hero. When they NDP does they get ridiculed. Romanow had his hands tied when he took office. Saskatchewan was deeply in debt and any move to reduce business tax cuts would be political suicide. Unfortunately that's the mess alot of north America is in - and it all started with business tax cuts that completely unbalanced our tax fairness.

 

I personally agree with business tax cuts, with strings attached. Tax cuts should be dependent on investment, training, job growth, wage increases. What BC did was give the tax cuts based on hopes and prayers that businesses would use the tax cut savings as intended. We all know most hoarded the savings. I would rather see mom and pops who are actually hiring - growing - inventing in employees and paying a living wage..... get major corporations share of the tax cuts.  After all those tax cuts is our money - from our hard work and pay. It is being used as a form of corporate welfare/socialism. Yet if any party ever tried to eliminate tax cuts for companies not using it as intended - people would explode ( just look at Alberta ). I say eliminate all tax cuts given to business - all of it.  Then based on growing jobs, investing in their operations in BC, increasing wages etc ..... let them deduct it at tax time. Could you imagine if we gave Tax cuts to every citizen based on them maxing RRSP's every year ... with no conditions they actual do? That's what business tax cuts have amounted to and are the bands binding the hands of any government who wants to make things better or fairer - in my opinion.

[JM_]

18 hours ago, iwtl said:

This is the problem with politics. Had Romanow ran a deficit to invest in the province - the right wing would call him a reckless spender, a dipper, anti business etc. Had Romanow balanced the budget he would be accused of not investing in the province and being anti business. Either way he gets ridiculed.

 

In my opinion the problem Canada wide is the lowering of business taxes. Government needs that tax revenue so they transfer business's share to consumers/workers. It results in hand cuffing any future government and keeps us in this loop of "can't win".  Canadian corporations have had record profits this past decade. The tax cuts where to stimulate job growth, company investment and increased wages. We saw little of any benefits from those tax cuts. Harper himself called out companies for hoarding cash from tax cuts - Capitalism has failed. Under capitalism everyone would have the same rights.... workers and owners.

 

So back to Roy Romanow. - When Brad Wall balances the budget he gets hailed as a hero. When they NDP does they get ridiculed. Romanow had his hands tied when he took office. Saskatchewan was deeply in debt and any move to reduce business tax cuts would be political suicide. Unfortunately that's the mess alot of north America is in - and it all started with business tax cuts that completely unbalanced our tax fairness.

 

I personally agree with business tax cuts, with strings attached. Tax cuts should be dependent on investment, training, job growth, wage increases. What BC did was give the tax cuts based on hopes and prayers that businesses would use the tax cut savings as intended. We all know most hoarded the savings. I would rather see mom and pops who are actually hiring - growing - inventing in employees and paying a living wage..... get major corporations share of the tax cuts.  After all those tax cuts is our money - from our hard work and pay. It is being used as a form of corporate welfare/socialism. Yet if any party ever tried to eliminate tax cuts for companies not using it as intended - people would explode ( just look at Alberta ). I say eliminate all tax cuts given to business - all of it.  Then based on growing jobs, investing in their operations in BC, increasing wages etc ..... let them deduct it at tax time. Could you imagine if we gave Tax cuts to every citizen based on them maxing RRSP's every year ... with no conditions they actual do? That's what business tax cuts have amounted to and are the bands binding the hands of any government who wants to make things better or fairer - in my opinion.

thanks for the thoughtful reply. 

 

Where we differ I think is I would have preferred it if Romanow had actually run a deficit, a fairly large one in fact, to invest in diversification of the provinces manufacturing base. I have no issue with deficits if used to invest and stays within the proper metrics (debt to gdp, etc). If Horgan does that I'll be thrilled. 

 

On corporate taxes, they aren't really the boon many think they are. A 1% change in federal business taxes only results in about 1 billion of additional revenue. So you really have to kick it up to make a big impact on federal or provincial revenue, but the impact on individual businesses is much larger. Most companies only end up with about 5% or less profit when all costs and taxes are finally accounted for, so its very easy to cut into that. When a provinces like AB lowers their corporate tax even a little bit,the incentive to move head offices e.g., is pretty big and you lose jobs in the process. And you have to stay competitive globally as well. Its easy to say oh just raise taxes on business but you are going to risk losing industries that have mobility. 

 

The reason business tax cuts aren't 'welfare' imo, is that jobs are created by businesses. If giving your RRSP a tax cut created a job somewhere tat would be great don't you think?

 

But I do like the concept of incentivizing tax breaks based directly on jobs created, that would be a great thing for Horgan to lead on as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Harvey Spector]

On 2017-07-26 at 1:12 PM, Warhippy said:

I was not.  I am simply stating a fact.  NAFTA helped erode and erase jobs in these sectors country wide which had little if anything to do with provincial governance.  The NDP fighting globalization and promoting fair trade over free trade is not wrong.

 

Fighting or ensuring fair deals instead of free deals will never be wrong.  NAFTA effectively erased a decade or more of economic opportunity for Canada

You sound like a Trump supporter...