[Discussion] How close are the Canucks really?

[Nucker 67]

It's tough to predict which of our prospects will become good NHL players. Maybe they'll all be good. Maybe not. I was very surprised Virtanen struggled out of the gates as he did and spent the entire season in Utica. He never dominated, but he's developing under Green. He might still become really good, but his development is taking more time. Like Demko. It'll probably be 2-3 years before he plays for the Canucks. But when he's ready, he'll be very good. I'm not completely sure about Dahlen yet, because I haven't seen him play. How will he adjust to the smaller ice in the NHL? I've heard he's very skilled. Subban might get a shot this year I think. He'll come to camp prepared and may be a call up during the regular season. I'm still in that hope stage with Juolevi. I'm not convinced he'll be a great D, but a good D, like Tanev. Plays calmly, smart with the puck (most of the time), solid defensively. Nothing flashy, but gets the job done. Still unsure about Gaudette, Brisebois and Lockwood. I imagine they have a good chance to be decent NHL players. Maybe even pretty good. If all of these players (Virtanen, Demko, Dahlen, Subban, Juolevi, Gaudette, Brisebois and Lockwood) live up to expectations, the Canucks will be in really good shape. Can't wait to see them in a Canucks uniform.

 

Players like Beattie, Stukel, Pettit, Abols, McKenzie, Jasek, Billins, Sautner, Nilsson, and Candella - Not sure they will ever be regular NHL players, let alone good ones.  

 

Right now I have no concerns with Boeser and Goldobin. I think they're already good NHL players and they'll only get better.

[J.I.A.H.N]

Well, I have said more than once. Trade Tanev to Dallas (window closing), Arizona (needs a RD veteran) or Buffalo (needs a defensive Dman), now depending which pick is available, we may have to add.....but, I think it goes like this.... Vancouver trades Tanev to Arizona or Buffalo for their 2017 1st

 

Vancouver picks

 

Mittlestatdt at 5 OA  2017 ...........Potential #1 Center.......Playmaking, speed, size

Tippett at 8th OA  2017...............Potential #1 RW.............Scoring, speed, size

Hague or Jokiharju at 33rd OA 2017 .............both Dmen

BPA at 55th OA 2017.....................maybe another goalie ?

 

 

This gives Vancouver 2019 - 2020

 

Goldy                Mittlestadt            Tippett..........................creativity, speed, scoring

Baertschi            Horvat                 Broeser.......................playmaking winger, 200 ft. player, scoring winger

Grandlund         Gaudette              Virtanen.......................speed, tenaciousness, speed

Boucher              Dahlen               Lockwood.....................scoring, speed/scoring, speed

 

Juolevi             Gudbranson...............................................playmaking/1st pass, size/physical

Hutton              Stecher......................................................speed/playmaking, speed/play making

Briseboise        Subban......................................................defensive speed, offensive speed

McEneny       * Tryamkin....................................................smart /defensive/I will explain at the bottom

 

Markstrom/Demko...............................................................experience/Elite

 

2018 1st............................5th OA at worst........................BPA

2018 2nd..........................32nd OA.....................................Defenceman

 

Trading chips............Edler, Sutter, Eriksson...................

 

* I feel that getting Tryamkin back is a better than 50% odds, if Vancouver does it right. Bring his family over, get them jobs within the organization. If I remember right, they did that for Pavel Bure. Work on getting his wife involved in the community and socially. Don't try to low ball him (something I feel could have happened) Buy his right from his Russian club with his and his agents consent.......basically treat him like a god if you have too. Goldy will help.

 

This is not allowing for the trading chips to bring in assets. not does it reflect any UFA's that might be brought in to shore up the defense, it only suggests what we should do (draft picks) and what and where the prospect maybe positioned.....

 

Peace!

 

 

 

[Crabcakes]

When I started this thread, I was really talking about the future core of the Canucks.  I think they are pretty close in that regard.  I had thought that they were short a centre and a defenseman.  They could be as close a 2 high first round picks away from having these players in the system.  As it sit's now, the core as I see it is:

 

Horvat, Boeser, Juolevi, Demko 

 

Gaudette is a candidate.  Sutter is a defensive PK specialist and is a useful piece but is on the old side for the new core.  Also, Tanev would be a shut down D who is old for this group too.

 

Moving Tanev has become optional especially since Tryamkin has gone.  If the best chip the Canucks have is used to acquire a non-core piece, is it a waste of a player who would fill a core role for probably 5 years?  And is moving Tanev really going to speed the process up?  If he could some how net the team another top 10 pick this year, the Canucks would certainly be drafting top 10 again next year.  Is this better than him playing for the next 5 years?  I think a lot of people are going to say yes.  3 top 10 picks over 2 years is better than 2.  

 

Of course, a competitive team needs much more than core players.  The support group that I have listed includes Baertschi, Granlund, Goldobin, Dahlen, Gaunce, Virtanen, Gudbranson, Hutton, and Stecher.  These types of players are easier to find.

 

It goes without saying that all of the above players need to develop.  It's going to take at least 3-5 years or more in some cases for this to happen.

 

 

[Crabcakes]

7 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

Well, I have said more than once. Trade Tanev to Dallas (window closing), Arizona (needs a RD veteran) or Buffalo (needs a defensive Dman), now depending which pick is available, we may have to add.....but, I think it goes like this.... Vancouver trades Tanev to Arizona or Buffalo for their 2017 1st

 

Vancouver picks

 

Mittlestatdt at 5 OA  2017 ...........Potential #1 Center.......Playmaking, speed, size

Tippett at 8th OA  2017...............Potential #1 RW.............Scoring, speed, size

Hague or Jokiharju at 33rd OA 2017

BPA at 55th OA 2017

 

 

This gives Vancouver 2019 - 2020

 

Goldy                Mittlestadt            Tippett..........................creativity, speed, scoring

Baertschi            Horvat                 Broeser.......................playmaking winger, 200 ft. player, scoring winger

Grandlund         Gaudette              Virtanen.......................speed, tenaciousness, speed

Boucher              Dahlen               Lockwood.....................scoring, speed/scoring, speed

 

Juolevi             Gudbranson...............................................playmaking/1st pass, size/physical

Hutton              Stecher......................................................speed/playmaking, speed/play making

Briseboise        Subban......................................................defensive speed, offensive speed

McEneny       * Tryamkin....................................................smart /defensive/I will explain at the bottom

 

Markstrom/Demko...............................................................experience/Elite

 

2018 1st............................5th OA at worst........................BPA

2018 2nd..........................32nd OA.....................................Defenceman

 

Trading chips............Edler, Sutter, Eriksson...................

 

I feel that getting Tryamkin bad is a better than 50% odds, if Vancouver does it right. Bring his family over, get them jobs within the organization. If I remember right, they did that for Pavel Bure. Work on getting his wife involved in the community and socially. Don't try to low ball him (something I feel could have happened) Buy his right from his Russian club with his and his agents consent.......basically treat him like a god if you have too. Goldy will help.

 

This is not allowing for the trading chips to bring in assets. not does it reflect any UFA's that might be brought in to shore up the defense, it only suggests what we should do (draft picks) and what and where the prospect maybe positioned.....

 

Peace!

 

 

 

That's the scenario I was talking about IF they traded Tanev.  That is, they would have to get a piece back that would become core.

 

I'm not sure I agree with your picks but the idea is the same.  Fwiw I think with 2 top 10 picks this year, Benning takes a centre and a defenseman.

 

IF they keep Tanev, they get to the same place, in 14 months 

[J.I.A.H.N]

6 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

That's the scenario I was talking about IF they traded Tanev.  That is, they would have to get a piece back that would become core.

 

I'm not sure I agree with your picks but the idea is the same.  Fwiw I think with 2 top 10 picks this year, Benning takes a centre and a defenseman.

 

IF they keep Tanev, they get to the same place, in 14 months 

Thanks CC

 

I had the same idea about picking a Center and a Dman, and I am not against your idea either, it is just that I like Tippett a lot, but feel a Center is also imperative.......also there are a lot of high end dmen next year at the top, where I think we will be, unfortunately.....

 

I am also, not against shoring up the Defense short term.......I suggested signing Alzner for 2 years and overpaying to be able to trade him in his last year....no NTC or NMC, this will cost because of term and conditions, but it will give us options of either trading him at the TDL or resigning if we wish........accepting the fact that we do need veterans

[Crabcakes]

15 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

Thanks CC

 

I had the same idea about picking a Center and a Dman, and I am not against your idea either, it is just that I like Tippett a lot, but feel a Center is also imperative.......also there are a lot of high end dmen next year at the top, where I think we will be, unfortunately.....

 

I am also, not against shoring up the Defense short term.......I suggested signing Alzner for 2 years and overpaying to be able to trade him in his last year....no NTC or NMC, this will cost because of term and conditions, but it will give us options of either trading him at the TDL or resigning if we wish........accepting the fact that we do need veterans

I was just trying to give the alternatives but I guess by bias shows through pretty clearly.  I'd rather keep Tanev.  

 

Benning has a decision to make and it'll depend on the actual return he can get on Tanev, and/or if he looses a defense man like Sbisa to expansion.

[CaptKirk888]

13 hours ago, Fanaholic said:

What is more interesting to me is where will I be?   I am OLD!!!!!

Be more positive oldtimer, maybe u will live to reach 100? Unless of course you are already 90. In which case, never mind.

[J.I.A.H.N]

14 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

I was just trying to give the alternatives but I guess by bias shows through pretty clearly.  I'd rather keep Tanev.  

 

Benning has a decision to make and it'll depend on the actual return he can get on Tanev, and/or if he looses a defense man like Sbisa to expansion.

Oh, don't get me wrong......that's what I would like...not what going to happen..........my idea is a little pie in the sky, but I am just having fun.......

But if I could trade Tanev and sign Alzner....I probably would....don't give me the keys to the car! lol

[Junkyard Dog]

We need an top 2 offensive center that's at the same level or higher than Horvat.

 

We need an elite defenseman on the right side that can do it all, especially run a PP.

 

We top of that we could use another skilled winger. Hopefully one or two of the guys we have(Boeser, Goldobin, Dahlen) and draft pan out.

 

We need 1-2 legit physical presences upfront that can play and produce in the top 6 because right now the future looks hella soft up front which doesn't bode well. We have Virtanen who at this point in time doesn't look to be as menacing as the actual big PWFs and is even a bigger question mark to produce enough in the top 6. Hell we don't even have anyone in our prospect pool who could even fit this type of role in our bottom 6 besides maybe Lebate and Cramarossa. That point alone concerns me. We should probably be using our 1sts for the potential top 2 Center and elite defenseman first and foremost though. 2nd and 3rd round picks is where you could find these guys

 

Defensively we have a nice balance of two-way defenseman, guys that can move the puck, and physical defenseman throughout our organization. Maybe adding another potential top 4 defensive dman that brings a physical presence as insurance just in case Tryamkin doesn't ever want to return to the NHL. Priority though should be to find that elite defenseman that can run a PP.

 

We're a ways away but we have been making progress gradually. After this draft then maybe 1-2 more years at the bottom and we should hopefully have enough to start trending upwards.

[Fanaholic]

8 hours ago, CaptKirk888 said:

Be more positive oldtimer, maybe u will live to reach 100? Unless of course you are already 90. In which case, never mind.

Not so much makes me laugh, but I love your comment!!!   NO, I am not quite that old . . .

[DownUndaCanuck]

On 5/18/2017 at 3:14 AM, Nucksfan3322 said:

I wouldn't say we need a "generational" player to contend and there doesn't seem to be any coming soon as they only come ever generation. I do agree that we need some star power but that's all luck, could come in a form of 5th overall or in the 5th round, it's going to take good drafting and a lot of luck for us to get back to cup contender but for now I think playoffs are in 2 years.

 

Agreed, we don't need a generational player but it certainly seems to help. I'd call Crosby one, he's got a great team around him and has Cups. Ovechkin could be considered a generational talent, and is surrounded by a good team but has no cups, so it certainly doesn't guarantee anything.

 

That being said, it could be argued that the Kings and Blackhawks lack that "generational" talent (I'd consider Toews a generational talent) but they certainly have their star power.

 

If that's all we need, then we really need a star at each of the core positions. We really need a star center, and we really need a star, or elite defenceman. That's one thing you can't get far without - an elite top defenceman. Defensive depth helps but to have a guy like Karlsson, Doughty, Keith or Subban really propels you deep into the playoffs every time. Winning the Cup is one thing, but we need to be consistently good year in year out and that's what these star players do for you.

 

I agree, later picks do sometimes have these hidden gems (eg. Gaudreau, Keith etc.) but there's a much lower probability of drafting a star late than drafting one high, and quite frankly I don't think our scouts are that good. 

[Nucksfan3322]

13 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Agreed, we don't need a generational player but it certainly seems to help. I'd call Crosby one, he's got a great team around him and has Cups. Ovechkin could be considered a generational talent, and is surrounded by a good team but has no cups, so it certainly doesn't guarantee anything.

 

That being said, it could be argued that the Kings and Blackhawks lack that "generational" talent (I'd consider Toews a generational talent) but they certainly have their star power.

 

If that's all we need, then we really need a star at each of the core positions. We really need a star center, and we really need a star, or elite defenceman. That's one thing you can't get far without - an elite top defenceman. Defensive depth helps but to have a guy like Karlsson, Doughty, Keith or Subban really propels you deep into the playoffs every time. Winning the Cup is one thing, but we need to be consistently good year in year out and that's what these star players do for you.

 

I agree, later picks do sometimes have these hidden gems (eg. Gaudreau, Keith etc.) but there's a much lower probability of drafting a star late than drafting one high, and quite frankly I don't think our scouts are that good. 

This is why I'm hoping for another 1st round pick this year, maybe snagging one of the top offensive defenceman with that pick and draft the best center with the 5th. Sooner or later we'll luck out and find some of those gems.

I do have to disagree that our scouts are that good, I think they're doing a fine job atm. 

[Chris12345]

I'd say we are 28 teams away....we are really far. We need 3 top 6 forwards, and 2 more dman.

 

I'm not afraid to say we are so far Bo misses the window.

 

I'm also not afraid to mention Laphroaig is great.

[Crabcakes]

On 5/18/2017 at 6:43 PM, DownUndaCanuck said:

Agreed, we don't need a generational player but it certainly seems to help. I'd call Crosby one, he's got a great team around him and has Cups. Ovechkin could be considered a generational talent, and is surrounded by a good team but has no cups, so it certainly doesn't guarantee anything.

 

That being said, it could be argued that the Kings and Blackhawks lack that "generational" talent (I'd consider Toews a generational talent) but they certainly have their star power.

 

If that's all we need, then we really need a star at each of the core positions. We really need a star center, and we really need a star, or elite defenceman. That's one thing you can't get far without - an elite top defenceman. Defensive depth helps but to have a guy like Karlsson, Doughty, Keith or Subban really propels you deep into the playoffs every time. Winning the Cup is one thing, but we need to be consistently good year in year out and that's what these star players do for you.

 

I agree, later picks do sometimes have these hidden gems (eg. Gaudreau, Keith etc.) but there's a much lower probability of drafting a star late than drafting one high, and quite frankly I don't think our scouts are that good. 

I think that what you're saying is that the Canucks need a star centre and a star D.  That's basically what I've been saying.

 

Something interesting came from Sekeres' interview with Pierre McGuire today.  He confessed that it is a crappy draft this year.  Like 1999, there are always a few good players but by and large, this year sucks.  In 99, there were 2 noteables in the first round, Hank and Dank.  Not to mention in the later rounds, Ryan Miller, Radim Vrbata and some guy named Zetterberg but other than that it's pretty spare.  

 

This year is another year like 1999 by some accounts.  So if the 3 OA becomes available, so what?  Give up an all star RHD for that?  Folly.  Madness.  

 

Hang on to what you've got this year.  Do they get a great player at 5 OA?  I think that if they play their cards right they get a good player.  Maybe there are no solutions coming this year.  At least, we shouldn't be counting on it.  There are 2 stars available and if those picks get moved, they will be over priced.

 

 

[DownUndaCanuck]

On 5/20/2017 at 3:37 PM, Crabcakes said:

I think that what you're saying is that the Canucks need a star centre and a star D.  That's basically what I've been saying.

 

Something interesting came from Sekeres' interview with Pierre McGuire today.  He confessed that it is a crappy draft this year.  Like 1999, there are always a few good players but by and large, this year sucks.  In 99, there were 2 noteables in the first round, Hank and Dank.  Not to mention in the later rounds, Ryan Miller, Radim Vrbata and some guy named Zetterberg but other than that it's pretty spare.  

 

This year is another year like 1999 by some accounts.  So if the 3 OA becomes available, so what?  Give up an all star RHD for that?  Folly.  Madness.  

 

Hang on to what you've got this year.  Do they get a great player at 5 OA?  I think that if they play their cards right they get a good player.  Maybe there are no solutions coming this year.  At least, we shouldn't be counting on it.  There are 2 stars available and if those picks get moved, they will be over priced.

 

 

I agree that the following 2018 looks a bit deeper already, especially on defence, and that might be the year we want to stockpile draft picks.

 

In all honesty if I were JB I'd try to trade Tanev +/- other bits and pieces for either a stud top young defenceman or future top-6 center. Fill the other with the 5th overall pick. It's by no means a solution to all this team's many problems, but it's a step in the right direction in terms of bolstering our prospect pool where we need it most. 

 

For example, Tanev for Reinhart, then draft Heiskanen.

For example, Tanev for Sanheim, then draft Mittelstatd

[hammertime]

We have alot of tweeners Raymond Grabner types (Bae,Granny,Goldy,Dahlen) but the only foundational piece I can see so far is BO IMO we need a Drouin caliber FWD and a Seth Jones caliber D.

 

I'd do 5th OA + Bae +  for Drouin. I don't want to trade Tanev w the loss of Tram we will need to insulate the youth with D. Use our second to draft 6'7" RHD Finn EEmeli Rasanen.

 

2018

Drouin Bo Boeser

Loui Granlund Goldy

Dahlen Gaudette Virtanen

Gaunce Sutter Dorse/Cram

 

3 scoring lines and a shut down line.

 

Edler Tanev

Hutton Stetch

Sbisa Gud

Juo Rasanen

 

 

I think this lineup could start to make some waves.

[bluesman60]

On ‎2017‎-‎05‎-‎16 at 11:28 PM, Odd. said:

Our top 5 pick in this draft, and our top 5 in next years draft, top 15 pick in 2019 as well as trading vets for mid 1st round picks and 2nd round picks, (basically good drafting) and we won't be far at all.

 

We've got good depth in goal in Demko, Markstrom, and Garteig. Our defense is alright but could use a bonafide PMD defenseman particularly a right handed shot (Liljegren, Makar). With Juolevi, and say Liljegren in this draft, alongside Brisebois, Hutton, Stecher, Gudbranson, Pedan, hell even Subban, I would say our defense is looking pretty solid.

 

Obviously offense is an area of improvement. Horvat, Boeser, Dahlen, Goldobin, Gaudette, Baertschi, Granlund, Virtanen. Not bad, but could be better. Hopefully we can get a 1st line center next year in the top 5 coupled with brilliant drafting and honestly we're very close.

 

By the time the Sedins retire in a few years, I think our team will be completed and by 2020/2021, I think we'll be a legitimate playoff team. 

 

So to summarize: 2016, 2017, 2018 tank years, 2019 mediocre team (Sedins retire after the season), 2020 Sedinless team and possible playoff berth, 2021 playoffs.

 

The key to all of this is good drafting. Oh, and selling vets and getting picks in return 

There is going to be a gigantic hole at centre when the Sedins' retire so I don't see us being a solid contender before 2020/21. Another issue is that we have a host of smallish players up front (175-185 lbs)....including Jake Virtanen. JV is weighing in at 195 lbs now so don't expect him to hit like a freight train like he did when he played at 225 lbs. The exception is Bo Horvat.

In this years draft, we need a skilled centre with size and skill plus some defensemen with size. 

I don't expect the Canucks to jump up in the standings for at least 2 more seasons which gives us a shot at winning the lottery for the #1 overall pick.....hopefully we can get an impact player like a Matthews or McD or even a #1 defenseman.

Luck is going to play a huge part in the Canucks fortunes.

[Crotch_Crescent]

Its too early to figure out our future core, the only piece that's legit is Bo Horvat who's going to be a 30 goal man the moment hank/danny retire.

 

We have promising prospects Goldobin, Dahlen, Brisebois, Boeser, Demko, Juolevi and will add either Glass, Middlestat, Villardi or Heiskanen in this draft.

 

And some good young pro's - Sven, Granlund, Hutton, Stetcher, but the new core won't sort itself out till end of next season.

 

Canucks have some pieces, but we are least 2 years away from fighting for a playoff berth.

 

Hopefully we get lucky and end up with Dahlin or Svechnikov next year.