-DLC- Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 I'll start by saying that being a police officer is a tough job and those who go into that profession put their lives on the line. That is an accepted risk and they are provided training in line with that. However, a weapon wasn't produced here and my guess would be that firing at point blank range at a person who was compliant and in a seatbelt was likely not the best option. This officer acted on fear and nervousness and clearly wasn't equipped with the tools he needed...other than a weapon that had a fatal result. This guy had a wide nose (like a suspect) and a broken taillight. He also had a gun with a permit, and disclosed that. Common sense would tell me he wasn't planning on using it by declaring it. That, if he was reaching for his gun he would have simply done that? He reportedly stated that he was getting his license, as requested to do. AND, there was a child in the car. Seems to me this officer jumped to the most excessive force before trying a better option. He didn't even see a firearm...but he shot? That seems a little premature and excessive. That no other measures of restraint were used if he felt in danger (which would be the only acceptable excuse for firing). Now the flip side is that there are many who hate cops and some communities that have a history (and reason) to. The cops are well aware of this, but it's THEIR job to deescalate things, not escalate them. It's a sad situation, but you can't just pull people over and shoot them based on they have a gun. I would guess that they'd have to have it in their hand, followed by a command to drop it? This nervous cop fired in a preventative action. That just doesn't seem fair. I'm also concerned that this asshat of a mother did not console her child but opted to get video. I understand why, but do both. Videos have the child scream/cry and my concern is for her. That this was absolutely traumatizing and that mother failed, miserably in the video she shot afterward, in the police car with her child. Shut off the phone for chrissake and hug that child who needs it. It rattled me that she continued to document rather than turn her attention to her child who'd just witnessed this horrible event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 12 hours ago, Toews said: Apparently he matched the description of a suspect they were looking for. Suffice to say he wasn't the man they were looking for. 12 hours ago, Outsiders said: Broken tail light Sounds suspicious from the start. Broken tail light...victim looks like a criminal...leads to shooting. Brutal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, debluvscanucks said: I'll start by saying that being a police officer is a tough job and those who go into that profession put their lives on the line. That is an accepted risk and they are provided training in line with that. However, a weapon wasn't produced here and my guess would be that firing at point blank range at a person who was compliant and in a seatbelt was likely not the best option. This officer acted on fear and nervousness and clearly wasn't equipped with the tools he needed...other than a weapon that had a fatal result. This guy had a wide nose (like a suspect) and a broken taillight. He also had a gun with a permit, and disclosed that. Common sense would tell me he wasn't planning on using it by declaring it. That, if he was reaching for his gun he would have simply done that? He reportedly stated that he was getting his license, as requested to do. AND, there was a child in the car. Seems to me this officer jumped to the most excessive force before trying a better option. He didn't even see a firearm...but he shot? That seems a little premature and excessive. That no other measures of restraint were used if he felt in danger (which would be the only acceptable excuse for firing). Now the flip side is that there are many who hate cops and some communities that have a history (and reason) to. The cops are well aware of this, but it's THEIR job to deescalate things, not escalate them. It's a sad situation, but you can't just pull people over and shoot them based on they have a gun. I would guess that they'd have to have it in their hand, followed by a command to drop it? This nervous cop fired in a preventative action. That just doesn't seem fair. I'm also concerned that this asshat of a mother did not console her child but opted to get video. I understand why, but do both. Videos have the child scream/cry and my concern is for her. That this was absolutely traumatizing and that mother failed, miserably in the video she shot afterward, in the police car with her child. Shut off the phone for chrissake and hug that child who needs it. Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 1 minute ago, inane said: Huh? That's what has been reported...that he fit the description of a robbery suspect based on his wide nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 1 minute ago, inane said: Huh? Apparently his nose resembled the nose of a suspect they were looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Just now, debluvscanucks said: That's what has been reported...that he fit the description of a robbery suspect based on his wide nose. Weird way to say he was black but sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, inane said: Weird way to say he was black but sure... Well, in fairness, I think they do go through facial features with descriptions. But yeah, to open fire on the guy (who apparently had no criminal record). So maybe before freaking out, this cop should have allowed him to get his ID out, ran it through his computer, verified things, etc. He heard he had a gun, and got scared. Cops have to be better than that. They've signed on to be. I'd like to know for sure....was he told to keep his hands on the wheel or to show ID? Because if the command was to produce ID, it seemed he was trying to do so. If the command was to put his hands on the wheel and don't move, I still think other measures should have been employed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 1 minute ago, debluvscanucks said: Well, in fairness, I think they do go through facial features with descriptions. But yeah, to open fire on the guy (who apparently had no criminal record). So maybe before freaking out, this cop should have allowed him to get his ID out, ran it through his computer, verified things, etc. He heard he had a gun, and got scared. Cops have to be better than that. They've signed on to be. I'd like to know for sure....was he told to keep his hands on the wheel or to show ID? Because if the command was to produce ID, it seemed he was trying to do so. If the command was to put his hands on the wheel and don't move, I still think other measures should have been employed. No criminal record lol, he was black. Close enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 1 minute ago, inane said: No criminal record lol, he was black. Close enough. It's truly sad that some have to contend with that mindset. I can't imagine how scary that would be...to have to face the daily grind of addressing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 Quote The FBI Has Quietly Investigated White Supremacist Infiltration of Law Enforcement White supremacists and other domestic extremists maintain an active presence in U.S. police departments and other law enforcement agencies. A striking reference to that conclusion, notable for its confidence and the policy prescriptions that accompany it, appears in a classified FBI Counterterrorism Policy Guide from April 2015, obtained by The Intercept. The guide, which details the process by which the FBI enters individuals on a terrorism watchlist, the Known or Suspected Terrorist File, notes that “domestic terrorism investigations focused on militia extremists, white supremacist extremists, and sovereign citizen extremists often have identified active links to law enforcement officers,” and explains in some detail how bureau policies have been crafted to take this infiltration into account. Although these right-wing extremists have posed a growing threat for years, federal investigators have been reluctant to publicly address that threat or to point out the movement’s longstanding strategy of infiltrating the law enforcement community. ... https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-fbi-has-quietly-investigated-white-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/ Seeing as there are some in here that continue to deny that race is a factor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone909 Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 20 minutes ago, Toews said: https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-fbi-has-quietly-investigated-white-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/ Seeing as there are some in here that continue to deny that race is a factor... Yeah, many factors race being one.Proper training , longer screening processs, these are just a few of the things should go into better law enforcement training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerrDrFunk Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 7 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said: Drunk after a party or something? Nah, stuck on the Tarmac for two hours. Plus, it isn't actually worth arguing any points with the clam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said: First off, the victim was attempting to follow the officers commands when he was shot. He identified that he was carrying and has a permit in an Open Carry state. Other than a tail light on the car, the occupants where law abiding, the person shot was the passenger. I work very closely with law enforcement on the sharp end. As a Paramedic I understand the risk that is present when going on a call. I luckily don't have to arrest people that don't want to be arrested. But I also don't have a gun either. (Side note, now Paramedics are being armed in states. Where does it stop?) I watched the video the day that it was posted (the day it happened). I have followed the Castillo case. Also the Treyvon Martin case where it is legal to kill a black kid in a hoody that was minding his own business if you are a scared white guy that was stalking the kid at the time. The 12 y/o that was shot in Cleveland while on a playground. In that case the police opened fire after 12 seconds. The kid was never even given a chance to comply. Added to that the D.A. presented the defence case at the Grand Jury. If you know anything about the US legal system, you would understand how corrupt that is. the shopper that was gunned down in Walmart while carrying a BB gun that he was trying to buy. Gunned down by AR15's within seconds of police being onscene. the guy that was shot in his backyard while being tazed because he couldn't move his hands, because he was getting tazed, the special needs care worker was shot while calming the autistic man in his care who was having a breakdown. the kid that was shot in a drive thru because they were ordering a burger.... the list unfortunately is endless. The officer was scared and shot without cause. He killed a youth worker in front of his girlfriend and her young son, who was sitting directly behind the victim. The boy could have also been shot by accident. There is a failure in the US in the polictical system, legal system, economic system and the police are becoming a military force above the law when shooting people with out justification. The officer made a mistake and someone was killed as a direct result. The US system allows for police to use deadly force in otherwise non violent situations. The fear that seems to be the driving force behind these shootings is largerly unjustified as the number of officer shootings is relatively low. It's a dangerous job and we all want to go home at night but so did Castillo, who was minding his own business obeying the law. At some point the police in general in the US forgot to serve and protect and is now shoot first and ask questions later. There is another dark aspect to the majority of deadly police shootings against un armed people, the people being shot are overwhelmingly African American males. There is no real justification for the shooting of Castillo, who broke no laws and was complying with directions. Chances are that if he was White, he would be alive today. EmW I agree with you regarding those examples and as well in this case. I was more ore ore less creating a typical scenario for cops. Most if not all American cops would have to assume that anyone they are pulling over could have a weapon. certainly the case in this thread is tragic and criminal. However I can understand why cops shoot quickly when they issue commands that are completely ignored or worse, met with a movement that is suspicious. bottom line is if you're in the us and a cop has drawn his gun the best you can do is comply 100%, hope there is no escalation and settle whatever grievance you may have about the routine in court at a later date. the stats may not be equal but while there are completely unjustified police shootings so there too is criminals shooting or running over police at routine pullovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said: You realize that you are talking with a privlage that you take for granted. You live in in a nation that has a peace keeping police force, not a militarized police state. Also, based on your comments I can only derive that you have a case of white privilage. Your opinion of being stopped for a minor traffic violation might change substantially if you grew up in say Atlanta and happened to be African American. I can travel freely in many places because I am a white male. I don't need to fear police as they are there to protect me. Would I feel the same if I was a First Nation person in Canada, no. Nor would I feel the same if I was a black man in the US. My cousin is engaged to a extraordinary young man, a concert pianist with his masters in classical music. He is African American. When he drives from his middle class family home in Atlanta to come north he fuels up before leaving Atlanta. He empties his bladder, makes sure that absolutely all his lights work, his insurance, licence and registration are all in plain view so he never has to reach for anything if he is ever stopped and then he drives 5 miles below the speed limit until he reaches the northern states without stopping for any reason unless pulled over by police below the Mason Dixie line. I have never ever had to experience that and to discount the reality of being a law abiding black male in America is ignorant. In the case of many of these shootings, the police were not justified to use deadly force and were not held accountable. Not all, but most. This is why it's difficult for us as Canadians to really have a valid comment. We don't live in a country where it's written in the constitution for citizens to own and carry firearms. It's simply an entirely different arena. this comment is a bit of an exaggeration. Many times police are completely "under gunned" in many situations especially relative to gang violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircool Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Toews said: https://theintercept.com/2017/01/31/the-fbi-has-quietly-investigated-white-supremacist-infiltration-of-law-enforcement/ Seeing as there are some in here that continue to deny that race is a factor... Race is most certainly a factor in law enforcement. But it's a two-way street and I love how people just simplify the issue into, WHITE SUPREMACISTS IN THE POLICE. I've read a lot of opinions in this thread since my last posts, and this isn't particularly addressed at you. Again, I find people to be incredibly ignorant on this topic. So I'll just state some FACTS. 1) Black people in America make up approximately 12.2% of the population in America. 2) In 2015, Black people committed 26.7% of all crimes in America. Notice that this is ~2.2x their percentage of the population. 3) In 2015, Black people committed 36.4% of all violent crimes in America. Notice that this is ~3.0x their percentage of the population. So let's deconstruct this information really quickly. Not only are black people in America 2.2x as likely to commit crime, but they are 3.0x as likely to commit violent crime. Okay why am I repeating this information? Because this ALSO means that a greater portion of the crimes committed by black people in America are violent. Read that again until you understand what I'm meaning there. 3.0/2.2 is a ratio that dictates that violent crime makes up a larger portion of the overall crime by black people in America than the average. Okay let's move on. 4) 50% of fatal police shootings in America in 2015 were of white people. 5) 26% of fatal police shootings in America in 2015 were of black people. 6) In Philadelphia (a HUGE city), Black & Hispanic police officers are more likely to fire their gun at black people than white police officers. 7) From 2006-2015, 41% of cop killers are black. While 26% is larger than 12% and there is nothing I can do about that, and some would consider that fact a win for their argument that the police are racist, I prefer to think of this as a function of the violent crime ratios. I think it paints a more neutral picture. Additional information required would be that 60% of violent crime is committed by white people. Let's just simply do % of fatal shootings / % of violent crime. White: 50/60 = 83%. Black: 26/36.4 = 71%. Not all white and black people are likely to get shot by the cops, those who are actually committing crimes, or in an area with a lot of violent crime, or in a situation where they pulled over and being aggressive, or whatever it may be, basically a situation where the cop may be wary of dangers, are far more likely to get shot, so I think it's fair to normalize this information with the violent crime percentages. Some may disagree. Oh well. Can't help those who are set in their ways to understand things. I think the 6th and 7th facts speak for themselves. I'd like to think I've presented a lot of evidence to everyone here that the police are not nearly as racist as you'd like to believe. I think nowadays most people aren't racist. Not to say racism doesn't exist, but I think it's a cop-out (no pun intended) too often. People rarely want to look at the facts and make non-controversial conclusions and say "Yeah this cop did a bad thing, and he's just a bad person." or "Yeah this isn't a pretty truth, but it makes sense, I don't think that cop was a bad person." Instead it needs to be made about race, and we jump all the way to institutional racism, WHICH NO ONE COULD EVER PROVE. Then when we talk about race, we never talk about the levels of black on black violence in America, and how black people are killing each other. Which is the biggest problem black people face in America. We instead choose to bypass the harder conversation and absolve black people of any responsibility in any of their deaths, and blame it on white police officers, who aren't even as likely to shoot a black person as minority police officers. They are just a bigger percentage of the general population and the police population, and so get into the news more often. Because, it's not like the news ever mentions when a cop is black/hispanic, but they ALWAYS mention when the cop is white. Just so they can let people assume the race of the cop. Disgusting and yet true. Can't wait to be told to $%*&$(*%%&(( off again, for which I'm sure there was probably no punishment, even though it violates forum rules, although I see the posts have been removed. The ignorant mob always shout the loudest, and the most aggressively, which is generally why people choose not to bother challenging them. Not to mention, I guess I'm just on the wrong side of "political correctness", well I couldn't care about either. https://www.infoplease.com/us/race-population/population-united-states-race-and-hispaniclatino-origin-census-2000-and-2010 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/table-43 https://www.themarshallproject.org/2016/02/08/black-and-unarmed-behind-the-numbers https://ric-zai-inc.com/Publications/cops-w0753-pub.pdf Read the table on Page 33 of the above source. https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2015/tables/table_41_leos_fk_race_and_sex_of_known_offender_2006-2015.xls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancaster Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 3 hours ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said: You realize that you are talking with a privlage that you take for granted. You live in in a nation that has a peace keeping police force, not a militarized police state. Also, based on your comments I can only derive that you have a case of white privilage. Your opinion of being stopped for a minor traffic violation might change substantially if you grew up in say Atlanta and happened to be African American. I can travel freely in many places because I am a white male. I don't need to fear police as they are there to protect me. Would I feel the same if I was a First Nation person in Canada, no. Nor would I feel the same if I was a black man in the US. My cousin is engaged to a extraordinary young man, a concert pianist with his masters in classical music. He is African American. When he drives from his middle class family home in Atlanta to come north he fuels up before leaving Atlanta. He empties his bladder, makes sure that absolutely all his lights work, his insurance, licence and registration are all in plain view so he never has to reach for anything if he is ever stopped and then he drives 5 miles below the speed limit until he reaches the northern states without stopping for any reason unless pulled over by police below the Mason Dixie line. I have never ever had to experience that and to discount the reality of being a law abiding black male in America is ignorant. In the case of many of these shootings, the police were not justified to use deadly force and were not held accountable. Not all, but most. Um...... I'm not white, lol. I just follow what Chris Rock says.... *may contain some coarse language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBH1926 Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 7 hours ago, Eastcoast meets Westcoast said: First off, the victim was attempting to follow the officers commands when he was shot. He identified that he was carrying and has a permit in an Open Carry state. Other than a tail light on the car, the occupants where law abiding, the person shot was the passenger. I work very closely with law enforcement on the sharp end. As a Paramedic I understand the risk that is present when going on a call. I luckily don't have to arrest people that don't want to be arrested. But I also don't have a gun either. (Side note, now Paramedics are being armed in states. Where does it stop?) I watched the video the day that it was posted (the day it happened). I have followed the Castillo case. Also the Treyvon Martin case where it is legal to kill a black kid in a hoody that was minding his own business if you are a scared white guy that was stalking the kid at the time. The 12 y/o that was shot in Cleveland while on a playground. In that case the police opened fire after 12 seconds. The kid was never even given a chance to comply. Added to that the D.A. presented the defence case at the Grand Jury. If you know anything about the US legal system, you would understand how corrupt that is. the shopper that was gunned down in Walmart while carrying a BB gun that he was trying to buy. Gunned down by AR15's within seconds of police being onscene. the guy that was shot in his backyard while being tazed because he couldn't move his hands, because he was getting tazed, the special needs care worker was shot while calming the autistic man in his care who was having a breakdown. the kid that was shot in a drive thru because they were ordering a burger.... the list unfortunately is endless. The officer was scared and shot without cause. He killed a youth worker in front of his girlfriend and her young son, who was sitting directly behind the victim. The boy could have also been shot by accident. There is a failure in the US in the polictical system, legal system, economic system and the police are becoming a military force above the law when shooting people with out justification. The officer made a mistake and someone was killed as a direct result. The US system allows for police to use deadly force in otherwise non violent situations. The fear that seems to be the driving force behind these shootings is largerly unjustified as the number of officer shootings is relatively low. It's a dangerous job and we all want to go home at night but so did Castillo, who was minding his own business obeying the law. At some point the police in general in the US forgot to serve and protect and is now shoot first and ask questions later. There is another dark aspect to the majority of deadly police shootings against un armed people, the people being shot are overwhelmingly African American males. There is no real justification for the shooting of Castillo, who broke no laws and was complying with directions. Chances are that if he was White, he would be alive today. EmW Zimmerman's mother is Peruvian with some black heritage, so to call him "scared white man" is a pretty big stretch. Also the victim was a possible suspect, so by him saying I have CCP, how is the cop supposed to know he is not lying? Maybe he is saying that so the cop will drop his guard down, he only has few seconds to decide if this guy is reaching for license or a gun to kill him. Last cop that was shot and killed in line of duty in Vancouver was 1989, so yeah I would say that the cops are more relaxed in Canada. As far as your point that cops are not targeted often in the U.S. you should check those facts. Next time when you go to visit your cousin, make a stop in Garfield park area on west side of Chicago. Shooting rate is close to 1000 per 100 000, it's like a war zone down there. My suggestion is for you to ride around the area in a police car and let me know how that goes. Also St. Louis, New Orleans, Detroit etc. have some areas where you can ride with police. This poor guy did not deserve to die, to me the whole thing was a tragic accident, and I wish I didn't happen. But this racist anti cop narrative that has been pushed through by mostly clueless people has led to deaths as well. Ambush in Dallas, execution of two officers in New York etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBH1926 Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Dbl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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CBH1926 Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 4 hours ago, Lancaster said: Um...... I'm not white, lol. I just follow what Chris Rock says.... Hide contents *may contain some coarse language. White guy calling out non white guy, on his white privilege is pretty funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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