[Trade] F Derek Stepan and G Antti Raanta to ARI for 7th overall pick and D Anthony Deangelo

[Warhippy]

30 minutes ago, stawns said:

Gotcha........I guess they were fine with Hjarmalsson at a cheaper price on D.  The team cannot afford to lose Tanev than anything less than a killer deal, not after losing Sbisa.

I'm trying to piece it together myself with Chicago's moves being the biggest ?

 

Arizona got better, without question which is good for us.  But the comparables have to be there.  I am sure we could have found something in our system and roster to match that is all I am saying.  Stepan is a decent 2c.  I still see him as more of an elite 3C but gives Arizona far more options with him being an RH while possibly making more trades with their glut of young centers

 

Just a frustrating scenario as a Canucks fan knowing we're still 2-3 years away from being able to make moves like this.

32 minutes ago, cdubuya said:

I don't really know what to say to people trashing Raanta.  Sure, he has played on historically good teams which may have inflated his stats a bit. However, the last Rangers backup to be acquired and promoted to starter was Cam Talbot and he was pretty damn good for the Oilers last season. I am not going to comment on the high pick Ari gave up to get him (and Stepan), it is tough to know how much of that value is being allocated to Derek or Annti, but I would not be surprised if Raanta is a servicable starter for the Coyotes for the next 4-5 seasons. At some point Ari needs to try to take the next step in their development as a team and I think there were worse goalie options they could have targeted to replace Smith. 

My biggest question mark in raanta is the cost Arizona paid for him and Stepan.

 

Arguably in free agency there are solid goalies available, or closer towards August via FAR cheaper trade.

 

de'angelo was almost .5 ppg in Arizona in under 40 games last year.  On a team that bad it's actually quite impressive.  Then to add that 7th overall pick as well knowing who will be available as a UFA or via trade.

 

That's like us giving up the 5th and Hutton/Stecher for that package.  I just cannot see the full value for Arizona in this.

 

Not to say Raanta won't possibly pan out but he's played behind some VERY good teams in New York and Chicago and never more than 30 starts as a near 29 year old goalie.

 

I just cannot for the life of me see the value in this and will consider it a serious overpayment

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

I'd grant him '1B'.

 

Maybe they plan to put a solid D in front...add Tanev as well and:

 

OEL, Tanev

Chych, Goligoski

Hjarm, Schenn

They traded away their 7th overall, what would we get back? I suppose I would take their 2018 1st, should be a good pick.

[cdubuya]

1 minute ago, Warhippy said:

I'm trying to piece it together myself with Chicago's moves being the biggest ?

 

Arizona got better, without question which is good for us.  But the comparables have to be there.  I am sure we could have found something in our system and roster to match that is all I am saying.  Stepan is a decent 2c.  I still see him as more of an elite 3C but gives Arizona far more options with him being an RH while possibly making more trades with their glut of young centers

 

Just a frustrating scenario as a Canucks fan knowing we're still 2-3 years away from being able to make moves like this.

My biggest question mark in raanta is the cost Arizona paid for him and Stepan.

 

Arguably in free agency there are solid goalies available, or closer towards August via FAR cheaper trade.

 

de'angelo was almost .5 ppg in Arizona in under 40 games last year.  On a team that bad it's actually quite impressive.  Then to add that 7th overall pick as well knowing who will be available as a UFA or via trade.

 

That's like us giving up the 5th and Hutton/Stecher for that package.  I just cannot see the full value for Arizona in this.

 

Not to say Raanta won't possibly pan out but he's played behind some VERY good teams in New York and Chicago and never more than 30 starts as a near 29 year old goalie.

 

I just cannot for the life of me see the value in this and will consider it a serious overpayment

Fair enough.... my hunch is that Raanta was more of a throw in than anything else... If he had so much value then it puzzles me why LV took Lindberg over Raanta when Raanta could have been flipped for a good pick.

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, theo5789 said:

They traded away their 7th overall, what would we get back? I suppose I would take their 2018 1st, should be a good pick.

One of Strome/Dvorak and their 23rd OA.

[theo5789]

4 minutes ago, J.R. said:

One of Strome/Dvorak and their 23rd OA.

Interesting, but doubt they would make a move like that. Although crazier things have happened.

[Warhippy]

2 minutes ago, DoughtysCheck said:

where is the stats and evidence about "What percentage of hi to low quality shots vs scoring chances and converted opportunities?" a question you posed

It was a question in statement.  You posted simple numbers, i asked you to show what those numbers looked like.  Quick heads up, they're not posted anywhere.  You see them watching the games.  You see the forwards boxed out or simply entering the zone and shooting the puck as the defense gives them nothing else.  A good to great defense will do that, force forwards to take very low quality chances.

 

A Canucks defense alternatively allows a ton of shots against and most of them a higher quality.

 

Let's break it down to the easiest factors.

 

Over the last 3 years of shots against

 

Raanta:  

2014/2015:  14 gp 389 shots

2015/2016:  25 gp 530 shots

2016/2017:  30 gp 732 shots

Career:  94 gp 2311 shots against

 

Markstrom: (have to go back further to find comparable games played)

2013/2014:  16 gp 361 shots

2015/2016:  33 gp 988 shots

2016/2017:  26 gp 692 shots

Career:  109 gp 2995 shots against

 

You can see the discrepancy in shots against right there, more shots against translates in to more goals.  Markstrom playing in front of inferior defense will show more goals against as his shots against.  Even if we give Raanta 15 more starts, when we look at the Hawks over that period of time only allowing 26.2 shots per game and the rangers allowing 27.2 shots per game Marky has faced far more rubber.

 

Quality and percentage is not a recorded stat but simply put, face more pucks get scored on more.  These are essentials that end up being as valuable or more than simply wins losses gaa and save %

 

 

[Warhippy]

10 minutes ago, cdubuya said:

Fair enough.... my hunch is that Raanta was more of a throw in than anything else... If he had so much value then it puzzles me why LV took Lindberg over Raanta when Raanta could have been flipped for a good pick.

And that's the confusing part for me too.  WTF is Chayka thinking.  Knowing the market for goalies, knowing who is a UFA or available via trade later in the summer when teams are looking to solidify their rosters why give up such a talented young defenseman AND a 7th overall pick?  Especially if it is essentially for just Stepan 

 

I just don't get it.  A 7th OA pick is a 7th OA pick no matter what year it is and as such has value far in excess of a good 2b center.  I mean...could we capably get the 12th for Sutter and Markstrom now from Carolina? I cannot see the value and maybe it's just me but damn

[DoughtysCheck]

4 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

It was a question in statement.  You posted simple numbers, i asked you to show what those numbers looked like.  Quick heads up, they're not posted anywhere.  You see them watching the games.  You see the forwards boxed out or simply entering the zone and shooting the puck as the defense gives them nothing else.  A good to great defense will do that, force forwards to take very low quality chances.

 

A Canucks defense alternatively allows a ton of shots against and most of them a higher quality.

 

Let's break it down to the easiest factors.

 

Over the last 3 years of shots against

 

Raanta:  

2014/2015:  14 gp 389 shots

2015/2016:  25 gp 530 shots

2016/2017:  30 gp 732 shots

Career:  94 gp 2311 shots against

 

Markstrom: (have to go back further to find comparable games played)

2013/2014:  16 gp 361 shots

2015/2016:  33 gp 988 shots

2016/2017:  26 gp 692 shots

Career:  109 gp 2995 shots against

 

You can see the discrepancy in shots against right there, more shots against translates in to more goals.  Markstrom playing in front of inferior defense will show more goals against as his shots against.  Even if we give Raanta 15 more starts, when we look at the Hawks over that period of time only allowing 26.2 shots per game and the rangers allowing 27.2 shots per game Marky has faced far more rubber.

 

Quality and percentage is not a recorded stat but simply put, face more pucks get scored on more.  These are essentials that end up being as valuable or more than simply wins losses gaa and save %

 

 

pretty sure you were one of the people that claimed that Mike Smith to be a bad goalie. He faced the 2nd most shots against and had a respectable GAA

[Warhippy]

2 minutes ago, DoughtysCheck said:

pretty sure you were one of the people that claimed that Mike Smith to be a bad goalie. He faced the 2nd most shots against and had a respectable GAA

Actually I did, I said he was overrated when the rumoured first price broke on him.  Then when the pieces fell it became a meh deal.  I think for the value people put on him he is overhyped yes.  Much like Bernier was.  He's a good 1B, not a good 1A.  45-50 starts per year and the guy will do just fine, but then he's never had the opportunity to do anything but be a work horse while in Arizona.

 

Pretty sure you also didn't address my point though.

 

Will say though, it's good to be having a civil discussion about this instead of the usual CDC nonsense about people just being wrong without proof or simply based on opinion

[hatedkid666]

Rangers win this one, Deangelo is gonna be a stud 

[Adarsh Sant]

1 hour ago, theo5789 said:

They traded away their 7th overall, what would we get back? I suppose I would take their 2018 1st, should be a good pick.

Their 2018 first may not be that good.

 

They acquired Hjalmarsson, Raanta, and Stepan.  If we trade them Tanev, they might actually be a good team.

[Gaudette Celly]

4 hours ago, J.R. said:

And people didn't think we could get 7th + prospect for Tanev....

But... but... we were told Arizona would have zero interest in "old" players like Tanev.

Then they trade for 27, 28, and 30-year-olds, and move their 1st pick.  Howsabout thats!

[theo5789]

40 minutes ago, Adarsh Sant said:

Their 2018 first may not be that good.

 

They acquired Hjalmarsson, Raanta, and Stepan.  If we trade them Tanev, they might actually be a good team.

Even if we got the 15th overall, it's a deeper draft and the quality will be about a 5-10 pick from this year's draft anyway.

 

They could be slightly better with the acquisitions, but I doubt they will that much better. Especially when Raanta is an unproven starter, Hjalmarsson was behind Norris calibre dmen, and Stepan is really at best a good second line center.

[messier's_elbow]

Bad trade for the yotes. Arizona is going to suck for eternity. 

[Phil_314]

I can't be the only one to think that both teams did pretty well in this deal.

Raanta can probably start in this league (despite a smaller sample size he's got better stats than Mike Smith, and even better than Martin Jones when the Sharks traded for him).  Following the precedents of Jones and Cory Schneider (#1 goalie for #9 pick) the price seems fair (ignoring the fact that Talbot was traded to Edmonton for scraps).

Stepan is also only 27, and a 50 point player in the league.  With Hanzal gone and an emerging young core (Dvorak and Strome up the middle, plus Domi, Perlini, Duclair, Crouse, etc. on the wings) he's probably a solid top-line fit, and for the price of a top prospect that seems more than fair (even if the Rangers needed to free up cap space, they won't deal value away to not get some value back).

The Rangers could afford to get younger and less expensive given how they need to sign R.F.A.'s (Zibanejad and Jesper Fast now, Vesey/ Hayes/ J.T. Miller next season) they did well to still recoup value for their marquee guys.

Honestly tough to say who wins, but rather would think each team has their needs met (adding talent for the Coyotes, adding youth and saving cap for the Rangers).