48MPHSlapShot Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 4 hours ago, Rollieo Del Fuego said: Tell that to Gretzky....et all.... ...No way EP plays in the AHL...same as Brock and same as Bo (save for the injury/conditioning stint Bo had to do).... ...just watch.... Yeah, Gretzky came along at a time when players were generally a bit smaller. https://hockey-graphs.com/2015/02/19/nhl-player-size-from-1917-18-to-2014-15-a-brief-look/ Also, Pettersson has been playing on a much larger ice surface AND has been playing out of position all year. That's the difference between him, Horvat and Boeser. Horvat and Boeser were playing on NA sized ice and playing their natural positions before making the big club. Pettersson hasn't. It's not really a question of talent level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlemonger Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 It's not really a question of talent level. Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48MPHSlapShot Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 Just now, Battlemonger said: It's not really a question of talent level. Huh? Care to elaborate on your "huh"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimberWolf Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Hutton Wink said: Seems that Virtanen and McCann have some folks terrified that the team has no idea how to properly develop prospects. Unfortunately they are also myopic in believing that it's a cookie-cutter process, where every prospect needs to go to Utica before the NHL. It's been shown to be false, and likely will again with Gaudette in just a few months. There is no one size fits all. We should only do what's best for the team and player but that should include NHL development. We're having success because we finally got away from some of the silly crap. Last season we'd have had limited minutes fro Brock on line 4. Instead we're developing him on the path we need him on. Goal scoring. That doesn't mean we do that with every rookie. A guy like Jake needs to develop a different game and thus he's learning the bottom six role that's he's more suited to. Decent coaching from a coach that seems to understand his role or just suited to this particular one. Either way, it's not too bad. When it comes to EP it'll have to depend on his readiness and attitude. I agree we shouldn't hold him back unless he's flat out not ready and not ready means he can't play in the top six IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlemonger Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 OK. Talent equates to skill. When you say its not really a question of talent level, it really doesn't make sense because it's all about talent level if one wants to make the NHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48MPHSlapShot Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 1 minute ago, Battlemonger said: OK. Talent equates to skill. When you say its not really a question of talent level, it really doesn't make sense because it's all about talent level if one wants to make the NHL. It takes far more than just skill to make it into the NHL, and even more yet to make it in the NHL as a top 6 center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Hutton Wink said: Seems that Virtanen and McCann have some folks terrified that the team has no idea how to properly develop prospects. Unfortunately they are also myopic in believing that it's a cookie-cutter process, where every prospect needs to go to Utica before the NHL. It's been shown to be false, and likely will again with Gaudette in just a few months. Bertuzzi said we should do the Detroit model. Therefore everyone to Utica for at least one season I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 2 hours ago, Where'd Luongo? said: It would be nothing but a waste of time for the Canucks and Pettersson. The guy is proving himself now, he doesn't need to play meaningless games in Utica when he can come to the Canucks next year and perform on the big squad. This guy is legit. Oh sorry I must have missed how we're 1 Petterson away from contention 1 more year is not a waste of time my friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48MPHSlapShot Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 2 hours ago, Where'd Luongo? said: It would be nothing but a waste of time for the Canucks and Pettersson. The guy is proving himself now, he doesn't need to play meaningless games in Utica when he can come to the Canucks next year and perform on the big squad. This guy is legit. Nobody is saying he isn't legit. What we're saying is that for him to become accustomed to the NHL game, the NHL sized ice, and get used to playing center again, a season (or at very least a partial season) in Utica wouldn't hurt. Don't get me wrong, if a player is used to the NA game, used to the NA sized ice, already has some size, and already plays the position we need them to, as was the case with Boeser, then I have no objection to getting them in the lineup sooner rather than later. Pettersson doesn't check any of those boxes right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollieo Del Fuego Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Warhippy said: The environment in the SHL is not the same as the North American leagues and ice surfaces. The league is littered, hell is buried in prospects and players who lit it up in the Euro leagues and minor leagues but could never translate it to the bigs. Allowing him a full year to play against the best in the SHL again or a full year + in the AHL to acclimate to a harder and far more intense playing schedule would be nothing but beneficial. We're in technical year 3 of a rebuild (really around year 4) and we still have 2 years left before we've stockpiled the depth of prospects and cap space on the big club we need to start being playoff threats again. If we have a mediocre or bad draft this season we'll be hanging the next decade or more on Lind, Gadjovich, Juolevi and Petterson/Boeser as our only real prospects that can be almost assured to be NHL players of any sort. Markstrom and Nilsson as well as the play of our kids are actually blowing the early predictions of the canucks being a bottom 5 team out of the water in their first month of play and we could capably be a middle of the pack team. My accounts for our timeline had us picking top 10 this and next year and competing for 2020-2021 after 2 more decent drafts in which we've accumulated extra picks for selling of expiring contracts or older vets. Petterson is not needed now. He is really not needed next year. While we are exceeding expectations introducing him to early does little to nothing to help the club in the short term except sell a few tickets. For the club and the long term success of it, ensuring Petterson/Juolevi and our upcoming prospects are properly developed is FAR more important than worrying about why a "potential 60 point player" is not in our line up yet **Edit** This isn't to say if he comes in to camp and wows everyone he doesn't deserve a spot on the team. This is simply saying that there's a large amount of prospects that come over from Europe who do not have great first years in the NHL and when you factor in his size and the far more aggressive Pacific division over the SHL and the added schedule you risk stunting his development or possibly seeing him injured early on due to his not being used to a smaller size rink or far more aggressive playing styles 3 hours ago, RetroCanuck said: Totally agree, I hope we sell a lot of our players at this coming deadline so that we have at least one more year at the top of the draft. Many think tanking doesn't benefit but coming in bottom five of the league can give you the equivalent of two first rounders if you draft well in the early 2nd round. Benning has shown he's able to get really good players in those spots. Although I love the way we've been playing it doesn't help us in the future and many pieces we have can be replaced by guys in Utica or overseas. What Id like to see at this deadline is the trading of Edler or Del Zotto, preference of Edler but if he refuses to wave then trade Del Zotto. Replace them with either Wiercoch, a piece coming back in trade, or a guy like McEneny. Trade Vanek, replace with Goldobin, Boucher or Rodin. Trade Gudbranson for what you can get, hell Biega is playing better then him. Trade are worst starting goalie and replace with Bachman who's proven to be a good backup. Id also send Virtanen down to Utica now considering he's not playing big minutes, then when you make trades bring him back up. Baer-Bo-Boeser Goldy-Granlund-Eriksson Sedins-Virtanen Gaunce-Sutter-Dorsett Gagner, Burmistrov Del Zotto/Edler-Tanev Hutton-Stetcher Pouliot-Biega Wiercoch-McEneny Markstrom/Nilsson Bachman Will still be a fun high skilled team to watch but it will lose some games just due to inexperience. We get a high draft pick, the rebuild continues, we have a better team in the future. Oh and resign the god of drafting Thanks for the long and well thought out replies....the only problem is...we are a playoff contending team now...by the playoffs we may not even be considered an underdog if things keep gelling like they are.... So there is nothing wrong with adding a 65-75 point man to that mix next year ....along with AG...and we suddenly become cup contenders for years to come. The other problem is with the roster proposal....the Sedins played less than 8 minutes last night...if that sort of thing keeps up, they won't be back....if we don't make the playoffs this year....they won't be back....if we do and they become relevant....at least 13-14 minutes relevant...then maybe they want to come back...sure but Benning still doesn't have the luxury of keeping a high point man out of the lineup. It's up to Elias, if he keeps this pace up and gains his 10 Lbs or so in the next year....he will be more than ready. oh and we have Horvat, Granny, Baer, Virtanen, Gaunce, Goldobin, Dahlen, Gaudette, MacEwen, Chatfield...and more to add to your list of sure things....for years to come.... Rodin is still only 26 so add him as well and all our current young D and we are looking strong to me.... Edited November 6, 2017 by Rollieo Del Fuego Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48MPHSlapShot Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 4 minutes ago, Rollieo Del Fuego said: It's up to Elias, if he keeps this pace up and gains his 10 Lbs or so in the next year....he will be more than ready. Two things though. He won't be fully acclimated to the North American sized ice and he'll most likely be playing wing if we bring him in right away. I'd prefer to see him as a center and fully acclimated to the NA ice surface before making the jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollieo Del Fuego Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 Just now, 48MPHSlapShot said: Two things though. He won't be fully acclimated to the North American sized ice and he'll most likely be playing wing if we bring him in right away. I'd prefer to see him as a center and fully acclimated to the NA ice surface before making the jump. I think he starts on the wing with us.... Elias / Bo / Boeser would be a killer ...lights out....hat trick every night....for 2 of them...type of non hyped line..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dank.sinatra Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 7 hours ago, Odd. said: As much as it sounds counter-productive, he needs to learn the grind of the AHL. Half a season there wouldn't hurt. I think you're hellbent on the fact that he may or not produce in the AHL and as precaution you want him to play in the NHL because skillz. And I think you're severely underestimating the talent level in the AHL. Yes many teams have their fair share of goons but as you said if Pettersson has good decision making and really good at losing defenders and creating offense, he should have no problem producing when there's goons and "plugs" in the AHL which, again, is a horrible assessment of the league. It's not like Trent Cull is going to shove Pettersson in a 4th line role and expect him to do the things he's not really supposed to do but dumping and chasing, especially if you're a fast player like Virtanen, is a really useful method of getting it deep, beating your defenders in a race and then start creating plays which a guy Pettersson is really good at doing. You see perennial players like Crosby, MacKinnon, and for the sake of discussion I'll list some smaller players ex Marner, Gaudreau, Marchand, Pastrnak, hell you see this with Baertschi etc. Very small guys and yet they do this a lot when they want to start something. Dumping and chase, battling, shoot, crashing the net, the "correct way" as you said, holds a lot of truth. You NEED to be able to do all of those things to become a mainstay NHL'er. I never said the AHL was full of plugs. It's just a choppier league. I'd be willing to bet Elias won't play more than 20 games in that league, if any. He'll be just fine learning "the grind" in the NHL. It's NHL or SHL next year in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 (edited) Think the one thing that will determine if he plays NHL, AHL or SHL will be his size. He needs to be bigger than this... I don't care how elusive he is, if he gets hit a few time at this size, we'll get a ticket to his funeral. There won't be much joy if he get injured right away, as he won't gain weight or improve skill wise, if he is in plaster... Just imagine him being hit by a Torres express type of hit, or a Gudbransson... I wanna see him as much as anyone, but not unless he is deemed physically ready, deemed by the coaching staff and the coaching staff only. Muscle, muscle, muscle... Edited November 6, 2017 by spook007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasCanuck Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 4 hours ago, RetroCanuck said: Totally agree, I hope we sell a lot of our players at this coming deadline so that we have at least one more year at the top of the draft. Many think tanking doesn't benefit but coming in bottom five of the league can give you the equivalent of two first rounders if you draft well in the early 2nd round. Benning has shown he's able to get really good players in those spots. Although I love the way we've been playing it doesn't help us in the future and many pieces we have can be replaced by guys in Utica or overseas. What Id like to see at this deadline is the trading of Edler or Del Zotto, preference of Edler but if he refuses to wave then trade Del Zotto. Replace them with either Wiercoch, a piece coming back in trade, or a guy like McEneny. Trade Vanek, replace with Goldobin, Boucher or Rodin. Trade Gudbranson for what you can get, hell Biega is playing better then him. Trade are worst starting goalie and replace with Bachman who's proven to be a good backup. Id also send Virtanen down to Utica now considering he's not playing big minutes, then when you make trades bring him back up. Baer-Bo-Boeser Goldy-Granlund-Eriksson Sedins-Virtanen Gaunce-Sutter-Dorsett Gagner, Burmistrov Del Zotto/Edler-Tanev Hutton-Stetcher Pouliot-Biega Wiercoch-McEneny Markstrom/Nilsson Bachman Will still be a fun high skilled team to watch but it will lose some games just due to inexperience. We get a high draft pick, the rebuild continues, we have a better team in the future. Oh and resign the god of drafting You are definitely not watching the same games as the rest of us, Gudbranson has been a force on the blue line for us. You didn't see him throwing someone to the ice last night? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RetroCanuck Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 4 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said: You are definitely not watching the same games as the rest of us, Gudbranson has been a force on the blue line for us. You didn't see him throwing someone to the ice last night? Statistically Guddys overall game is $&!#e. Sure he makes a few good plays but he also gets burned on the outside a lot and isn't a consistent physical force. For what a shutdown guy is supposed to be he doesn't fit the mould. The game is changing to faster players and guddy definitely isn't that. I like the guy and think he's a good leader but don't see him as a guy you'd pay 5M and as a shutdown guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasCanuck Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 10 minutes ago, spook007 said: Think the one thing that will determine if he plays NHL, AHL or SHL will be his size. He needs to be bigger than this... I don't care how elusive he is, if he gets hit a few time at this size, we'll get a ticket to his funeral. There won't be much joy if he get injured right away, as he won't gain weight or improve skill wise, if he is in plaster... Just imagine him being hit by a Torres express type of hit, or a Gudbransson... I wanna see him as much as anyone, but not unless he is deemed physically ready, deemed by the coaching staff and the coaching staff only. Muscle, muscle, muscle... He's never going to be a huge guy, I see him playing around the 185 - 190 lbs range when he tops out. Figure he will probably enter the league around 175 - 180 lbs range. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said: He's never going to be a huge guy, I see him playing around the 185 - 190 lbs range when he tops out. Figure he will probably enter the league around 175 - 180 lbs range. Sounds about right, but at the moment he's about 165lbs I believe, and unless he adds those 10-15 lbs over the next year I don't see him entering the league. Maybe not even AHL... He's a toothpick at the moment, and I think that unless he adds that muscle mass over the next year, the debate of whether he can play in NHL or AHL is void. As I mentioned the coaching staff will know, when he is physically ready... Edited November 6, 2017 by spook007 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasCanuck Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 3 minutes ago, spook007 said: Sounds about right, but at the moment he's about 165lbs I believe, and unless he adds those 10-15 lbs over the next year I don't see him entering the league. Maybe not even AHL... He's a toothpick at the moment, and I think that unless he adds that muscle mass over the next year, the debate of whether he can play in NHL or AHL is void. As I mentioned the coaching staff will know, when he is physically ready... With the training programs the put kids through these days, it's not that much for him to add 10 to 15 lbs in a year. He's a tall kid, his frame should add that easily. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 7 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said: With the training programs the put kids through these days, it's not that much for him to add 10 to 15 lbs in a year. He's a tall kid, his frame should add that easily. Yes lets hope so. Don’t want our future ended before it really starts because we can’t wait for him to b promoted... I think it’ll be the only thing keeping him away from Comets or the big club. Funny to read the names of superstars mentioned, and the time it took them to start their NHL careers... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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