Kole Lind | RW

[RetroCanuck]

11 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Every time I see Lind doing well only reminds me of last season of those who suggested Utica can't develop prospects.

I think Utica learned a hard lesson in development last year. Personally I think Benning told them at the end of the year that they had to play Canucks prospects more often in different situations so as to develop them.

 

This year the coaching staff is playing the kids more and are being rewarded for it with increased development

[theo5789]

46 minutes ago, RetroCanuck said:

I think Utica learned a hard lesson in development last year. Personally I think Benning told them at the end of the year that they had to play Canucks prospects more often in different situations so as to develop them.

 

This year the coaching staff is playing the kids more and are being rewarded for it with increased development

Maybe, but I see it differently. Lind and Gadjovich were a couple of first year pros coming out of juniors. Lind has admitted that it was a tough transition. The staff made the decision to ease them in rather than throw them in the fire and possibly wreck their confidence. Lind showed growth already by the end of the year.

 

The difference between last year and the rest was that we actually had several prospects come into Utica at once. We also have more depth now to slot them into better development areas. For example had Rafferty joined the team when Stecher did, he may have cracked the NHL roster already, but we have the depth now to let him develop in the AHL.

 

I'm curious as to which prospects did we not develop in the past to justify the stance that we can't develop. In my view, the prospects that went through the system that want to grow their game have done so.

[RetroCanuck]

3 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Maybe, but I see it differently. Lind and Gadjovich were a couple of first year pros coming out of juniors. Lind has admitted that it was a tough transition. The staff made the decision to ease them in rather than throw them in the fire and possibly wreck their confidence. Lind showed growth already by the end of the year.

 

The difference between last year and the rest was that we actually had several prospects come into Utica at once. We also have more depth now to slot them into better development areas. For example had Rafferty joined the team when Stecher did, he may have cracked the NHL roster already, but we have the depth now to let him develop in the AHL.

 

I'm curious as to which prospects did we not develop in the past to justify the stance that we can't develop. In my view, the prospects that went through the system that want to grow their game have done so.

The Americans/ Canadians stayed and the Europeans left due to the system. Palmu and Dahlen's experiences were so bad that they left for teams in their respective countries.

 

Don't get me wrong though, young players need tough lessons. But, when you have multiple players complaining about the same things then you have a problem.

[lmm]

1 hour ago, therodigy said:

I think what needs to be taken into account, RE Utica's success in developing prospects, is the type of prospects being added to the blender. Hard to imagine Cole Cassels developing at a significantly higher level in another organization, or Frankie Corrado becoming a top 4 two way D-Man if he were drafted by Toronto. 

 

Also, lest we forget that certain prospects were developed BY Utica and utilized as assets for trade: Shinkaruk for Granlund, Pedan and change for Pouliot, Carcone for Leivo, just to name a few. Would this not be a testiment of successful development, or is success simply measured in point production?

I think you are stretching it a bit with those examples.

Shink for Gramma was a swap of failed draft picks, = move on and hope the other guy shines... neither shone

Pedan for Poop, was prety much the same, except Pedan wasn't our pick and was moody, however there is always a team that will take a flyer on a 1st rounder or 6'5" player. Pedan is 6'5"

Leivo needed to be traded and TO found him a place to play, much like the Biega deal this season. For all the abuse Toronto gets around here, it should be admitted that Dubas did Leivo a solid with that deal. I do not recall Dubas ever stating that Carcone was the "Next great hope" in Toronto. Dubas gave Leivo an opportunity and took a semi-warm body in return. Its the type of deal, if made by JB that makes the Canuck faithful crow about what a class org we have but when made by Dubas the Canuck fans jeer "we fleeced him!"

As Leivo and Gramma are the only 2 still in the NHL it is more a testament to the Marlies and Heat's ability to groom prospects.

[theo5789]

9 minutes ago, RetroCanuck said:

The Americans/ Canadians stayed and the Europeans left due to the system. Palmu and Dahlen's experiences were so bad that they left for teams in their respective countries.

 

Don't get me wrong though, young players need tough lessons. But, when you have multiple players complaining about the same things then you have a problem.

Did Palmu leave or did we remove him? Prior to this, he was in some hot water back in Finland. Probably didn't want that character in our system and he was a 6th round overaged undersized longshot pick. Canucks originally probably wanted to gamble on his skill and chemistry with Gadjovich and didn't think there would be character issues.

 

Dahlen didn't want to grow. He didn't want to put in the work. A trade demand was made. He was given ice time here. No one else seems to have complained. Jasek is still here and still contributing so I don't see any complaints here.

 

I don't see a rampant situation of players saying there is a problem here. If the Euro guys (Dahlen only pretty much) don't want to tough it out here, then what makes them entitled to an NHL spot that's only going to be tougher?

 

The NA guys stayed and are fine and have developed, that doesn't seem like a problem with our system then.

[theo5789]

2 hours ago, HockeyHarry said:

Canucks are in good shape. Prospects are stockpiling up and depth has never been better.

 

Kole Lind looks good.

 

as stated it’s the after hindsight crap that’s amusing 

Many posters have been saying the depth is coming and the picks we have made have been solid. Many posters last year were "defending" the side that we weren't poor developers. This wasn't simply hindsight for many posters here. It's hindsight now for the people who've been running down Utica and our development only to see things working out now and tracking back.

 

You don't need to trash everything in front of you in hopes to be proven wrong. I simply choose to trust the process and there have been a lot of positive signs even during the tough times.

 

The fact that no one can really suggest prospects that we actually developed poorly should really be telling about our developing. Palmu and Dahlen are the only usual suspects, but choose to ignore Demko, Virtanen, Brisebois and the simple fact that we haven't had many prospects going through the system. That's not Utica's problem, that a problem of not having the prospect pipeline before that we have grown since Benning took over and started filling. Now Lind, Gadjovich and Jasek could be added to the list and many more to come.

Edited December 10, 2019 by theo5789

[HockeyHarry]

14 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Many posters have been saying the depth is coming and the picks we have made have been solid. Many posters last year were "defending" the side that we weren't poor developers. This wasn't simply hindsight for many posters here. It's hindsight now for the people who've been running down Utica and our development only to see things working out now and tracking back.

 

You don't need to trash everything in front of you in hopes to be proven wrong. I simply choose to trust the process and there have been a lot of positive signs even during the tough times.

 

The fact that no one can really suggest prospects that we actually developed poorly should really be telling about our developing. Palmu and Dahlen are the only usual suspects, but choose to ignore Demko, Virtanen, Brisebois and the simple fact that we haven't had many prospects going through the system. That's not Utica's problem, that a problem of not having the prospect pipeline before that we have grown since Benning took over and started filling. Now Lind, Gadjovich and Jasek could be added to the list and many more to come.

Not continue this but Utica wasn’t bright star of success over the years too blindly follow and believe their doing a good developing players. Now it’s seems they got it steered in the right direction.

 

It early but Moving forward Utica is finally establishing some clout.

 

Kole is developing. there is now real evidence Utica is fine.

 

onward to victory

 

 

 

[therodigy]

47 minutes ago, lmm said:

I think you are stretching it a bit with those examples.

Shink for Gramma was a swap of failed draft picks, = move on and hope the other guy shines... neither shone

Pedan for Poop, was prety much the same, except Pedan wasn't our pick and was moody, however there is always a team that will take a flyer on a 1st rounder or 6'5" player. Pedan is 6'5"

Leivo needed to be traded and TO found him a place to play, much like the Biega deal this season. For all the abuse Toronto gets around here, it should be admitted that Dubas did Leivo a solid with that deal. I do not recall Dubas ever stating that Carcone was the "Next great hope" in Toronto. Dubas gave Leivo an opportunity and took a semi-warm body in return. Its the type of deal, if made by JB that makes the Canuck faithful crow about what a class org we have but when made by Dubas the Canuck fans jeer "we fleeced him!"

As Leivo and Gramma are the only 2 still in the NHL it is more a testament to the Marlies and Heat's ability to groom prospects.

In retrospect, the Shinkaruk/Granlund swap can be seen as that. At the time, though, it was a trade of our highest scoring minor league player at the time for a player on the brink of breaking through. I find if difficult to imagine that no development (or in Shinkaruk's case, hindrance) took place in his tenure in the organization. 

 

True, Pedan was not a Canucks pick, but he spent two or so years in Utica. It could be argued that it was a size for potential pick.

 

Though Carcone was by no means a top-tier prospect, he did spend a couple years in the organization and was a pretty major contributor in the minors beforehand. If it was a "favour" trade, like Biega/Pope, there could've been other candidates that could've gone in his stead. 

 

I understand your arguments and feel them valid. I guess it just raises a question of whether or not successful development can be determined with creating a table asset, or if it is only within the confines of growing home grown talent for the big club.

[theo5789]

25 minutes ago, HockeyHarry said:

Not continue this but Utica wasn’t bright star of success over the years too blindly follow and believe their doing a good developing players. Now it’s seems they got it steered in the right direction.

 

It early but Moving forward Utica is finally establishing some clout.

 

Kole is developing. there is now real evidence Utica is fine.

 

onward to victory

 

 

 

And what about Demko, Virtanen and Brisebois? I reiterate that we had no real prospect pool to show for at the start of it all before Benning took over. It's no surprise that after Benning took over and is starting to fill the pipeline that we are seeing more results at a higher pace. Utica, aside from tweaking here and there as all organizations do, hasn't really changed all that much. Not sure how we can complain about not developing prospects when there weren't many prospects to develop in the first place. And now that we do and we are seeing their growth, then of course it's hindsight for those have been trashing our development over the last couple of years only to realize maybe there wasn't a problem after all.

[HockeyHarry]

New page.....Kole is looking good. It was a Good pick Jimbo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fred65]

4 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

And what about Demko, Virtanen and Brisebois? I reiterate that we had no real prospect pool to show for at the start of it all before Benning took over. It's no surprise that after Benning took over and is starting to fill the pipeline that we are seeing more results at a higher pace. Utica, aside from tweaking here and there as all organizations do, hasn't really changed all that much. Not sure how we can complain about not developing prospects when there weren't many prospects to develop in the first place. And now that we do and we are seeing their growth, then of course it's hindsight for those have been trashing our development over the last couple of years only to realize maybe there wasn't a problem after all.

Not a complete picture, over the same period we have enjoyed good success with prospects coming through the  NCAA rather than the AHL. Gaudette, Boeser, Hughes, Stecher, with the likes of Madden and Rathbone yet to arrive. The comparison as a development program which has shown the better value … and I'd say the NCAA by a country mile

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, theo5789 said:

I don't see a rampant situation of players saying there is a problem here. If the Euro guys (Dahlen only pretty much) don't want to tough it out here, then what makes them entitled to an NHL spot that's only going to be tougher?

And San Jose didn't seem to have any better luck with him after the trade either. Perhaps lending credence to the thinking it may have been the player, not the team...

 

You're unlikely to change anyone's mind here. Context is a real issue here on CDC.

[theo5789]

9 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

Not a complete picture, over the same period we have enjoyed good success with prospects coming through the  NCAA rather than the AHL. Gaudette, Boeser, Hughes, Stecher, with the likes of Madden and Rathbone yet to arrive. The comparison as a development program which has shown the better value … and I'd say the NCAA by a country mile

That doesn't discredit Utica though. Utica can only be seen as a poor developmental program if there actually prospects that haven't grown their game. Perhaps the team agrees that going through NCAA is a good system and that's why we have made several picks of players committed to that system which allows them to mature a few years more before hitting pros unlike for Utica where you are having mostly players coming out of juniors at 20 years old playing against men for the first time. It just means you have to give players time and see where they are at in the Utica system at about the same age when college players come in. But instead we have people harping about how we are developing Lind and Gadjovich 20 games into their first pro years and then keep that mentality and ignore the fact that they did grow over the course of the season and carrying over until this year. Does that sound like more of a complete picture?

[theo5789]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

And San Jose didn't seem to have any better luck with him after the trade either. Perhaps lending credence to the thinking it may have been the player, not the team...

 

You're unlikely to change anyone's mind here. Context is a real issue here on CDC.

Not trying to change anyone's mind because that's almost impossible around here. But I will try to portray the way I see things and hopefully people agree and hopefully I'm not wrong

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Not trying to change anyone's mind because that's almost impossible around here. But I will try to portray the way I see things and hopefully people agree and hopefully I'm not wrong

You're on point IMO  

 

The argument last year that Utica 'can't develop prospects' was devoid of context. Continuing to trumpet it (even in past tense) is simply a continuation of ignoring that context. The biggest 'change' in Utica is an increasing volume of develop-able and developed (like Lind) prospects. The same 'change' some of us said was coming last year while they were all complaining.

 

There'll be even more next year.

[Fred65]

16 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

That doesn't discredit Utica though. Utica can only be seen as a poor developmental program if there actually prospects that haven't grown their game. Perhaps the team agrees that going through NCAA is a good system and that's why we have made several picks of players committed to that system which allows them to mature a few years more before hitting pros unlike for Utica where you are having mostly players coming out of juniors at 20 years old playing against men for the first time. It just means you have to give players time and see where they are at in the Utica system at about the same age when college players come in. But instead we have people harping about how we are developing Lind and Gadjovich 20 games into their first pro years and then keep that mentality and ignore the fact that they did grow over the course of the season and carrying over until this year. Does that sound like more of a complete picture?

One thing for sure is JB / Brackett see more value in the NCAA/EU route and it's up to players such as Lind, Gadjovich and Woo to chnage their collective minds, I don't see it happening. As we speak Utica is a parking lot for tweeners. The last draft there were 2 players from CHL, the year before there was 1 CHL grad.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Fred65

[theo5789]

10 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

One thing for sure is JB / Brackett see more value in the NCAA/EU route and it's up to players such as Lind, Gadjovich and Woo to chnage their collective minds, I don't see it happening. As we speak Utica is a parking lot for tweeners. The last draft there were 2 players from CHL, the year before there was 1 CHL grad.

I don't see it as a knock towards Utica. JB/Brackett are drafting who they think are the best players, not the developmental path they will take. There's still nothing here that hold true towards Utica being a poor developmental path. The prospect that have gone through the Utica system that put in the effort to grow have done so.

[Nancouver]

1 hour ago, Fred65 said:

One thing for sure is JB / Brackett see more value in the NCAA/EU route and it's up to players such as Lind, Gadjovich and Woo to chnage their collective minds, I don't see it happening. As we speak Utica is a parking lot for tweeners. The last draft there were 2 players from CHL, the year before there was 1 CHL grad.

Pretty good chance that will change as most mock drafts for 2020 feature the chl heavily. Who knew canadians are actually pretty good at hockey.

[Kanukfanatic]

7 hours ago, HockeyHarry said:

Canucks are in good shape. Prospects are stockpiling up and depth has never been better.

 

Kole Lind looks good.

 

as stated it’s the after hindsight crap that’s amusing 

...or posters typing stuff they cannot back up.  

[reyezone]

22 hours ago, RetroCanuck said:

I think Lind could be the perfect player to go beside Petterson. Has the ability to create offence, play well defensively and he has an edge. You could say the same for Podz as well. Imagine 2-3 years down the line when some of these young guns show up. Podz, Hoglander, Lind and Madden...damn

 

He’s got a little Cory Perry in him.