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3 minutes ago, canuckledraggin said:

Nope. Baertschi played 15 regular season games and 21 playoff games. He was instrumental in their run to the finals that season. Virtanen wasn't the poster boy for Utica, but Green firmly tucked him under his wing and willed the kid to make progression in his development. Markstrom is missing from that list and it was a good move to waive him early in the pre-season 2014 so he could build his way back up to the NHL.

 

While there does need to be more successes coming from Utica within the next few years, The Canucks have shown they're only willing to put a couple of rookies in each year, so those players in Utica have to compete with college players and players from overseas as well.

The issue is not internal competition.  It's who that competition is with.  Our young prospects should not have to compete with AHL journeymen, who are only better because they are older and more mature/experienced.  Even guys like Boucher are getting too old, and shouldn't be taking spots from guys, who might actually play for the Canucks.  Of course we need some veteran AHL guys to lead the team, but we don't need a team loaded with these types.   

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9 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

You can't compare a goalie to out skaters 

But that was not your starting post was it? iirc you started with this:

 

 

50 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

The fact is the Canuck roster is full of players that were developed in Utica ( sarcasm )

then moved the posts. then said you hoped you weren't a post mover, having done just that.

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6 minutes ago, canuckledraggin said:

Nope. Baertschi played 15 regular season games and 21 playoff games. He was instrumental in their run to the finals that season. Virtanen wasn't the poster boy for Utica, but Green firmly tucked him under his wing and willed the kid to make progression in his development. Markstrom is missing from that list and it was a good move to waive him early in the pre-season 2014 so he could build his way back up to the NHL.

 

While there does need to be more successes coming from Utica within the next few years, The Canucks have shown they're only willing to put a couple of rookies in each year, so those players in Utica have to compete with college players and players from overseas as well.

Let's not forget the reason Markstrom was in Utica was because Vcr had a goalie named Miller, but yes Markstrom did improve in Utica but also bare in mind he had a specific goalie coach working with him which make the goalie development a tad different to out skaters. Always smile when I think of Markstrom, he was acquired by Gillis and doesn't look too shabby today. :)

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10 minutes ago, gurn said:

But that was not your starting post was it? iirc you started with this:

 

 

then moved the posts. then said you hoped you weren't a post mover, having done just that.

Sorry sunshine I don't understand what you're debating 

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2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

The issue is not internal competition.  It's who that competition is with.  Our young prospects should not have to compete with AHL journeymen, who are only better because they are older and more mature/experienced.  Even guys like Boucher are getting too old, and shouldn't be taking spots from guys, who might actually play for the Canucks.  Of course we need some veteran AHL guys to lead the team, but we don't need a team loaded with these types.   

Progression isn't linear for every player. There's nothing wrong with some players taking longer in their development. The reason entry level deals are 3 years long, is that that is the usual amount of time it takes for players to learn the pro game. Then teams get to choose to sign players multiple years as restricted free agents. Players like Palmu and Gadjovich have lots of time to prove themselves within the organization. Earned not given has been the mantra of this team for several years now.

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1 minute ago, canuckledraggin said:

Progression isn't linear for every player. There's nothing wrong with some players taking longer in their development. The reason entry level deals are 3 years long, is that that is the usual amount of time it takes for players to learn the pro game. Then teams get to choose to sign players multiple years as restricted free agents. Players like Palmu and Gadjovich have lots of time to prove themselves within the organization. Earned not given has been the mantra of this team for several years now.

Neither of Palmu or Gadjovich are baby faces, who need to physically mature though.  I think with these two we need to decide now if they have a role to play in our future.  They need to play on the Comets, and play a lot, so we can figure this out.  The quicker we make these decisions on young guy (especially two who are already men) the more value we can return in trading them.    

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12 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Neither of Palmu or Gadjovich are baby faces, who need to physically mature though.  I think with these two we need to decide now if they have a role to play in our future.  They need to play on the Comets, and play a lot, so we can figure this out.  The quicker we make these decisions on young guy (especially two who are already men) the more value we can return in trading them.    

Jonah's had a half season of professional hockey and this is Palmu's first season of high-level pro. Give them some time to work things out and settle in to their roles. No decisions have to be made immediately, the Canucks aren't going to legitimately compete for another couple of years at least. 

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Well, as said, the AHL is a development League, and by its design, is there to develop players for the NHL, in most cases...….

 

So, I would think that the number one goal is to get the kid playing time, and solid coaching...…..

I don't know if they get game film of their games, but if they do, and they should.....they need minutes to be able to provide that tape

then one on one meetings with the player to show him on film what he is or isn't doing

then drills need to be designed to teach that void

then game time to apply said designed practiced techniques 

then rinse and repeat

In saying that, Palmu's weakness's are common, and are drills that are worked on during most practices

and he would be seeing them a lot....

What I would like to know is, of all the games he was ready and able to play in, how many did he actually play in

and how many minutes a games was he getting?

And did he get the information he needed?

In saying that, was he actually treated poorly or was he just not a priority?

Maybe they are sugar coating the truth, not to crush and hope, and he simply wasn't good enough?

maybe he should have been in the ECHL? We do not know...…...

I would say there is probably a little truth all away around and the real truth is in the middle somewhere......

If he is getting Ice time where he is at...….give him a year or 2 and see how high he flys

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9 hours ago, Alflives said:

The issue is not internal competition.  It's who that competition is with.  Our young prospects should not have to compete with AHL journeymen, who are only better because they are older and more mature/experienced.  Even guys like Boucher are getting too old, and shouldn't be taking spots from guys, who might actually play for the Canucks.  Of course we need some veteran AHL guys to lead the team, but we don't need a team loaded with these types.   

Yes Alf I agree somewhat....but ice time is earned to some extent...………so give the young guys 8 to 10 mins a game, then if they want more, make them earn it....just like everyone else has to...….. it is not easy to get to the top of the heap...…...but they can not take it for granted...…….

 

A rhetorical question, but do you know how many really really good juniors never get drafted or make it past their first camp? Because all they think they have to do is put on their skates? It reminds me of a story about Torrie Robertson, who played in Nanaimo, then Victoria, and made the NHL...….not a great skilled hockey player, but a great fighter, and I heard stories of him practicing his skating, when ever he had a chance.....cause he still needed to be able to skate like an NHLer...and he did....I always respected him for that. It is not easy. Torie never quit!

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I am pi--ed off at how often whenever there is a problem with any of our prospects the willingness of some on here (Alf is certainly consistent at it) to somehow blame our own organisation.

 

What these people conveniently forget is how many of our prospects seem to have no problem in progressing and developing. And no, the reason is not they are all different. They may have different personalities but in the main the goals that are laid down for them to allow and assist THEM to succeed are the same. In the main they involve humility to take in the coaching, hard work and consistency. That is not too much to ask any young sportsman who is determined to make a living in the game, they presumably love in the first place.

 

The Comets are not a pilot scheme for new ideas although I would hope they are progressive in their thinking.

 

We do not treat our prospects any different to most other affiliates, we are not the only affiliate who uses a combination of AHL vets and prospects. This is not some innovation we have suddenly decided to employ.

 

It is all based on confidence. Confidence in the main is built through consistency in good performance levels and of course winning to a certain degree. These AHL vets are there to impart their experience and to ensure situations they have been through before do not phase the youngsters, to show leadership and set an example of how to do things the right way and how hard work brings its own rewards.

 

That is not achieved by having rookies in all positions in the team, so in order to benefit and develop the youngsters who respond to coaching, those prospects who are slow on the uptake or indeed prefer their own ideas to the coaching staff, surrender their places at least temporarily, to vets who drive forward the standards required by the team and the coaching staff.
 

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9 hours ago, alfstonker said:

I am pi--ed off at how often whenever there is a problem with any of our prospects the willingness of some on here (Alf is certainly consistent at it) to somehow blame our own organisation.

 

What these people conveniently forget is how many of our prospects seem to have no problem in progressing and developing. And no, the reason is not they are all different. They may have different personalities but in the main the goals that are laid down for them to allow and assist THEM to succeed are the same. In the main they involve humility to take in the coaching, hard work and consistency. That is not too much to ask any young sportsman who is determined to make a living in the game, they presumably love in the first place.

 

The Comets are not a pilot scheme for new ideas although I would hope they are progressive in their thinking.

 

We do not treat our prospects any different to most other affiliates, we are not the only affiliate who uses a combination of AHL vets and prospects. This is not some innovation we have suddenly decided to employ.

 

It is all based on confidence. Confidence in the main is built through consistency in good performance levels and of course winning to a certain degree. These AHL vets are there to impart their experience and to ensure situations they have been through before do not phase the youngsters, to show leadership and set an example of how to do things the right way and how hard work brings its own rewards.

 

That is not achieved by having rookies in all positions in the team, so in order to benefit and develop the youngsters who respond to coaching, those prospects who are slow on the uptake or indeed prefer their own ideas to the coaching staff, surrender their places at least temporarily, to vets who drive forward the standards required by the team and the coaching staff.
 

To some degree things have chnaged quite radically. In the 60-70's the NHL was a smaller league and the model leaned more towards a throw away league. If player "A" didn't fit then bring in player "B" or "C" etc. As the league expanded it became more difficult to source the volume of players, there was no KHL either. Of course there was no salary Cap either so the rich teams could plunder at will, and screw the consequences. Much of todays management learned their trade during that era. Some adapted, some not so much. In part that's the reason for managers/coach's are trending towards younger. The soccer revolution brought change, Hungary brought in the third man style, Belgium total football, plus the likes of Argentina and Brazil broke into the spotlight ( in the 60's Brazil/Argentina/Uraguay were none identities.) Hockey is more provincial in it's views and still clings to old ways. Players such as Palmu have value and they can't leave not knowing the whats and whys on their future. 

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9 hours ago, alfstonker said:

I am pi--ed off at how often whenever there is a problem with any of our prospects the willingness of some on here (Alf is certainly consistent at it) to somehow blame our own organisation.

 


 

Well it was Palmu himself who mentioned the lack of communication it's not like people are randomly jumping to conclusion, and when it comes to development the organization is 100% to blame.  Year after year we produce next to nothing in our minor league system.  

 

 

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1 minute ago, The 5th Line said:

Well it was Palmu himself who mentioned the lack of communication it's not like people are randomly jumping to conclusion, and when it comes to development the organization is 100% to blame.  Year after year we produce next to nothing in our minor league system.  

 

 

I know big Nik wasn't in Utica, but I wonder if part of the reason he left was our poor management of his development?  there is the story about Willie D (imwit) insisting Nikita play dirty like Pronger, right?

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Just now, Alflives said:

I know big Nik wasn't in Utica, but I wonder if part of the reason he left was our poor management of his development?  there is the story about Willie D (imwit) insisting Nikita play dirty like Pronger, right?

Willie and Doug Lidster are both clueless and this is coming from a guy who is usually pretty lenient when it comes to coaches.  I remember Lidster comparing Phlip Larsson's play style to that of Erik Karlsson...like come on dude.  Not to mention he wore a baseball batting helmet to practice like a weirdo

 

 

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5 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

Willie and Doug Lidster are both clueless and this is coming from a guy who is usually pretty lenient when it comes to coaches.  I remember Lidster comparing Phlip Larsson's play style to that of Erik Karlsson...like come on dude.  Not to mention he wore a baseball batting helmet to practice like a weirdo

 

 

I 100% feel that if Nik was here while Green was coach, he would have stayed, even with his young wife's wanting to go home.  Green would have been hard on Nik for fitness, but wouldn't have tried to get him to be a dirty player, who went out of his way to injure other players.  Pronger literally stomped on Kesler, and he said afterwards, he did stuff like that on purpose to keep the other players' honest, and create more room for himself.  Nik likely watched those videos of Pronger and thought, what the hell is going on here?

Are we keeping our farm team in Utica because it's out of sight of the local media and fans?

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On 1/8/2019 at 11:49 PM, CRAZY_4_NAZZY said:

But to say Utica and their staff aren't committed to develop the prospects is absolutely foolish.  That statement does not reflect the true nature of what is happening in Utica...just because 2 guys have struggled, doesn't reflect the fact that there are many other young players who have stepped up and showing bright futures for this organization. 

 

Media and fans who look from the outside who haven't done their homework or haven't followed along in detail jump on every single lead and blow it out of proportion.

Enter Botchford, essentially calling Lind and Gadjovich busted prospects, "At the age where they have to show something by now"... at 20 years old, three months into their pro careers.   

Absolute garbage.

 

 

Bottom line: 

You do what the coach says, you work your butt off, you get results = you get ice-time.  "But you gotta play me coach, to show what I can do" -- EVERY player says that same thing, it's no excuse at all.

tenor.gif?itemid=5175734&f=1

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I remember AV coaching the Manitoba moose. Tons of the old Canucks core came from that. 

I hope same happens with Utica and they develop the young guys correctly.

 

i haven’t been able to watch Comets games this season but I hope canuck prospects get the majority of ice time over the “not in Canuck system” players.

Edited by HockeyHarry
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50 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said:

Enter Botchford, essentially calling Lind and Gadjovich busted prospects, "At the age where they have to show something by now"... at 20 years old, three months into their pro careers.   

Absolute garbage.

 

 

Bottom line: 

You do what the coach says, you work your butt off, you get results = you get ice-time.  "But you gotta play me coach, to show what I can do" -- EVERY player says that same thing, it's no excuse at all.

tenor.gif?itemid=5175734&f=1

I looked at our current roster lately and almost every player, with the exception of the top 10 picks, has spent significant time in the AHL. 90+ percent of players go through the AHL in order to make it to the NHL. Why would our prospects be any different?

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13 hours ago, Fred65 said:

To some degree things have chnaged quite radically. In the 60-70's the NHL was a smaller league and the model leaned more towards a throw away league. If player "A" didn't fit then bring in player "B" or "C" etc. As the league expanded it became more difficult to source the volume of players, there was no KHL either. Of course there was no salary Cap either so the rich teams could plunder at will, and screw the consequences. Much of todays management learned their trade during that era. Some adapted, some not so much. In part that's the reason for managers/coach's are trending towards younger. The soccer revolution brought change, Hungary brought in the third man style, Belgium total football, plus the likes of Argentina and Brazil broke into the spotlight ( in the 60's Brazil/Argentina/Uraguay were none identities.) Hockey is more provincial in it's views and still clings to old ways. Players such as Palmu have value and they can't leave not knowing the whats and whys on their future. 

Was that not Holland?

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